Fiber or Point-to-Point?

E

eptesicus

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Jan 12, 2015
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First off, some info:

My parents have moved onto a new property, where they build a pole barn garage, and are now building a house. My dad and I are planning on installing at least 6 exterior cameras on the house, and 4 on/in the garage (surveillance server in the house), with WiFi in both buildings. The internet connection that they have available to them is DSL, but fiber will be coming out there soon (as in 1-5 years soon).

The plan:

The house will have an HP 1820-24G-PoE+ switch for the cameras and network drops, and the garage will probably have the same. Here's the thing... The garage is about 150 yards from the house, so running cat-6 isn't an option. That leaves point-to-point wireless to connect the two buildings, or underground fiber...

Fiber will definitely be more costly, but what are we looking at? Either option we do, I'm planning on doing it myself. I'd have no problem setting up and configuring point-to-point, but fiber is a little foreign to me. Either way... What should I look into getting for either setup? I'm worried that point-to-point may be a major bottleneck when streaming 4 cameras to the surveillance server in the house, plus streaming media from the house to a TV in the garage, and using what little bandwidth they have from their DSL connection.

Any help here is appreciated.
 
I'm from the school of physical connections if possible.

The switches support LX SFP's, so you'll need two of these:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-1000BASE-L...UTF8&qid=1439585900&sr=8-2&keywords=hp+lx+sfp

And then you'll need to find a place that will make you the cable with the duplex LC connectors to the length you need. Bury it in conduit, keep the ends clean and you should be fine. Max distance for 1Gb over single mode fiber is about 10 kms. It could "probably" be done over multi mode (SX) connectors, but I hate multi-mode (MM are powered by LEDs, SM via laser).

You could see if there is any splicing company around you that would come terminate the fiber for you if you can't find any place online, splicing a pig tail on single mode fiber takes no time at all, but I couldn't even guess what the charge would be.


If the above info sounds like too much of a hassle, go with PTP.
 
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eptesicus said:
Fiber will definitely be more costly,
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You can get 500 feet of microduct for about $140, and 500 feet of 6-pair single mode fiber for about $120. If you get the pre-terminated kind its probably $200 for the fiber.
 
I'd go fiber. First it will be faster. You can upgrade later on down the line by putting on a new SFP/media converter if needed and as technology changes. Yeah it will cost more up front than a pair of Ubiquiti locos, but fiber will be much better long term. Fiber won't be exposed to the elements, etc - so I'd even wager that long term it might be cheaper.
 
It's not wise to run copper from building to building anyway. Grounding issues will arise.

If you intend to have that much bandwidth between the two then fiber seems like the only option.
 
If you are willing to buy the parts off eBay to go the fibre route then I'd have thought you could get it done much cheaper than wireless. I picked up 30m fibre here in the UK with LC connectors for under £10!

Couple of second hand SFP modules for the switches shouldn't be too expensive either.

Hardest part will be digging up the ground to run conduit :)
 
Lanshack makes awesome preterminated fiber whips. The come with pulling-eyes and everything.

That being said, if you have line of sight a point-to-point 802.11ac bridge will be more bandwidth than you need. A ubiquiti nanobeam ac on both ends will net you 200mbit+ real world useable bandwidth. With good radio conditions 300mbit actual thruput is a real possibility. Price would be about $250-275 total for the link, assuming you need to buy j mounts too.
 
I have a customer in a similar setup. 2x barns and their house, cameras on all of them. We suggested using UBNT Nanostation links between the buildings. Yes the Fiber itself isn't that expensive, but you also have to rent the trencher, call your local utilities to come mark their existing lines, change your dig path so you don't interfere with utility lines, etc etc. It was going to be easier to go overhead instead of underground.
 
fowlrock said:
I'm from the school of physical connections if possible.

The switches support LX SFP's, so you'll need two of these:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-1000BASE-L...UTF8&qid=1439585900&sr=8-2&keywords=hp+lx+sfp

And then you'll need to find a place that will make you the cable with the duplex LC connectors to the length you need. Bury it in conduit, keep the ends clean and you should be fine. Max distance for 1Gb over single mode fiber is about 10 kms. It could "probably" be done over multi mode (SX) connectors, but I hate multi-mode (MM are powered by LEDs, SM via laser).

You could see if there is any splicing company around you that would come terminate the fiber for you if you can't find any place online, splicing a pig tail on single mode fiber takes no time at all, but I couldn't even guess what the charge would be.


If the above info sounds like too much of a hassle, go with PTP.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I think I'll see if I can get a pre-terminated 500 ft. fiber cable, to hopefully save some money from having to get someone out to terminate it after it's ran. So, I need to use LC connectors for single-mode, and get single-mode transceivers for the SFP connector on the switches?

wizdum said:
You can get 500 feet of microduct for about $140, and 500 feet of 6-pair single mode fiber for about $120. If you get the pre-terminated kind its probably $200 for the fiber.
Click to expand...

Where?

canna said:
I'd go fiber. First it will be faster. You can upgrade later on down the line by putting on a new SFP/media converter if needed and as technology changes. Yeah it will cost more up front than a pair of Ubiquiti locos, but fiber will be much better long term. Fiber won't be exposed to the elements, etc - so I'd even wager that long term it might be cheaper.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. That's what I'm trying to push.

Skillz said:
It's not wise to run copper from building to building anyway. Grounding issues will arise.

If you intend to have that much bandwidth between the two then fiber seems like the only option.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Thanks!

rma said:
Go for the fiber, longterm price is lower.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

nry said:
If you are willing to buy the parts off eBay to go the fibre route then I'd have thought you could get it done much cheaper than wireless. I picked up 30m fibre here in the UK with LC connectors for under £10!

Couple of second hand SFP modules for the switches shouldn't be too expensive either.

Hardest part will be digging up the ground to run conduit :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, we were going to plan on running the conduit and cabling when they dug the ditch for the water, but they got started early and already buried the water line. How far down should the conduit be? Do you think a foot (or about 30 cm to you) will suffice?

bds1904 said:
Lanshack makes awesome preterminated fiber whips. The come with pulling-eyes and everything.

That being said, if you have line of sight a point-to-point 802.11ac bridge will be more bandwidth than you need. A ubiquiti nanobeam ac on both ends will net you 200mbit+ real world useable bandwidth. With good radio conditions 300mbit actual thruput is a real possibility. Price would be about $250-275 total for the link, assuming you need to buy j mounts too.
Click to expand...

Wow... So, 500 ft. of 2-strand indoor/outdoor singlemode fiber, with LC connectors and pulling eyes is only $275. I had no idea it would be this inexpensive. This is a win.

firedrow said:
I have a customer in a similar setup. 2x barns and their house, cameras on all of them. We suggested using UBNT Nanostation links between the buildings. Yes the Fiber itself isn't that expensive, but you also have to rent the trencher, call your local utilities to come mark their existing lines, change your dig path so you don't interfere with utility lines, etc etc. It was going to be easier to go overhead instead of underground.
Click to expand...

Since it's a new construction, and the water line was just ran, we know exactly where to trench without running into issues. We have a pair of the Nano's at a client that I frequent, and they work well for what they're used for, and I was thinking of using those, or something similar, if we did PTP, but I think fiber is the way to go here.


Thanks everyone for the info.

I think the plan will be then to get 500 ft. (I'll have to measure the exactly length needed, plus slack, but it should be around 500 ft.) of 2-strand indoor/outdoor singlemode fiber from Lanshack.com (Thanks bds1904!) with LC connectors and pulling eyes, the appropriate SFP network transceivers, and conduit to run fiber. Any objections?

Thanks!
Mike
 
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Sounds good.

I have used the Routerboard RB260GS on either side of a link similar to this with great results. The switch is $40 and the sfp (S-31DLC20D) is $30. That's $140 for the link, not bad in my book.
 
To connect the buildings I would use a pair of Ubiquiti M5's, these will perform really well, are inexpensive, and easy to deploy. There is a youtube video for this exact scenario. Throughput is really good for radios. There is also the new airfiber afx5 that boasts 500+mbps, and real world 150mbps over 250km($400 a radio)., so....there are good options.
 
Fiber is definitely nice, but honestly the nano stations will be more than enough. Especially the ac models. I run 4 720p cameras over the standard NS2.4 and have plenty of bandwidth still.

They are crazy reliable and the distances you are talking about, crazy fast.

The key is that they are dedicated wireless bridges vs. client based wifi.
 
By my calculations the fiber link will be $700 total if the labor is free (DIY). That's fiber, conduit and switches/sfp's. For 1Gb bandwidth that's cheap!

So $275 for an 802.11ac link that will be enough but isn't upgradable or $700 for a link that can run 1Gb, and be upgraded to 10Gb in the future by changing hardware on either end.

Considering they are getting fiber internet at some point, which may be up to 1Gb, fiber seems to be the no brainer in this situation.

This is [H] after all, he is going to have servers in his garage eventually.
 
jacqkeen said:
I checked the price for a terminated duplex single mode LC-LC 325 foot fiber patch cable at fiberstore.com and it was around $20. http://www.fiberstore.com/lc-lc-duplex-9-125-single-mode-fiber-patch-cable-p-12189.html

If you don't mind waiting for it to get to you from Hong Kong, it may save you a bit.

Armored cable was $40 for 325 feet.
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Patch cabe is not indoor/outdoor wet rated cable, even if it is armored. Plus you still have the pulling-eyes to buy.

Pulling patch cable in conduit is a bad idea. Patch cable has poor tensile strength, exactly what you need on a long pull.
 
Oh trolls that haven't pulled anything (let alone fiber) through 500ft of underground smooth-wall conduit with a 90 degree riser on each end...:rolleyes:
 
No only 262', sorry I can't join the ranks of being elite.
 
I'm with the Ubiquiti Nanostation team... If you want to avoid the hassle of trenching and all that...

At work I have 6 PtP links using Nanostation Loco M5s across multiple sites. They are super reliable and have never went down in the many years we have been using them.

Each link gets a solid 95Mbps (11.8MB/sec) throughput and even with the traffic from 6x 2MP IP cameras the link is around 55% utilization.

Nanostation Loco M5s are currently $60 USD on Amazon...

If you want a little more bandwidth there is also the newer Nanobeam AC product, which should provide about 3x more throughput. They are $85 USD each.

These are dedicated wireless bridges, not consumer WiFi devices. They are designed for multi-mile PtP links. Wireless ISPs often use Ubiquiti equipment for either backhaul or customer links.

At this close range you will have to turn the transmit power down. At the default level both sides will likely be way too "hot" which will actually hurt performance. At least for Nanostation hardware ideally you don't want the received signal on either end to be any higher than -45. Once you exceed that performance can actually degrade.
 
^^^If you want more there are the af5x's at $400 a throw designed for backhaul duty...500+mbps
 
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Theres always time for lubrication ;)

I did a 200m fiber run, without any problems, we just wraped a robe along the fiber to make it stronger.

I did participate in running 3,4Km fiber for a outdoor party like 10 years ago.
 
OP, Here is what I would do in your case. I did this for my garage, but the distance was only 45 meters.

I dug a trench 0.5m deep and put 75mm empty tube in there. Something like this:
http://www.my-electro.be/product/wachtbuis-75/

That stuff is cheap.

Put it as straight as possible, keeping any bends on a wide radius.

Then order the LC-LC patch cable from fibrestore and gently pull that in the empty tube. The cable is then protected, and the pulling should be easy. You can also use the tube to add power cable later, or first...

This is the technically correct solution, and I don't think it would be expensive.

Advantages:
* highest bandwidth. no WIFI crap comes close to 1GBps fibre.
* No grounding loop issues like you would have with copper.
* NOT susceptible for jamming. You will be using this for security cameras. I can build a 2.4GHz/5GHz jammer with 10 bucks worth of components...
* Cheap.

Cons:
* Labor intensive. But if you know a guy who can do it with a machine... :)

Just my 2cents
 
rsq said:
OP, Here is what I would do in your case. I did this for my garage, but the distance was only 45 meters.

I dug a trench 0.5m deep and put 75mm empty tube in there. Something like this:
http://www.my-electro.be/product/wachtbuis-75/

That stuff is cheap.

Put it as straight as possible, keeping any bends on a wide radius.

Then order the LC-LC patch cable from fibrestore and gently pull that in the empty tube. The cable is then protected, and the pulling should be easy. You can also use the tube to add power cable later, or first...

This is the technically correct solution, and I don't think it would be expensive.

Advantages:
* highest bandwidth. no WIFI crap comes close to 1GBps fibre.
* No grounding loop issues like you would have with copper.
* NOT susceptible for jamming. You will be using this for security cameras. I can build a 2.4GHz/5GHz jammer with 10 bucks worth of components...
* Cheap.

Cons:
* Labor intensive. But if you know a guy who can do it with a machine... :)

Just my 2cents
Click to expand...


Got that link or product in Engrish? Looks rad
 
Looks like it's just regular Corrugated HDPE conduit you can get from Innderduct, Duraline, Carlon, etc, just make sure it's rated for in-ground use if you use it though - a lot of the stuff out there is ment to go inside a larger smoothwall HDPE duct.
 
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Indeed, nothing fancy about the tube.

From Macco's list of brandnames:
http://www.duraline.com/content/corrugated-standard

You can buy this stuff with or without a pulling cable already in it. I bought the one WITH cable and used the pulling cable to pull 2 fiber patch cables and a rope in them.

The idea behind the rope is that you then have another pulling wire in case you want to add more cables later.
 
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