Feds Respond to Apple: Stop Being a Baby

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It looks like the feds are fed up with Apple refusing to decrypt the infamous iPhone belonging to the San Bernardino shooters. Here's what the Department of Justice had to say earlier today:


By Apple’s own reckoning, the corporation—which grosses billions of dollars a year—would need to set aside as few as six of its 100,000 employees for perhaps as little as two weeks. This burden, which is not unreasonable, is the direct result of Apple’s deliberate marketing decision to engineer its products so that the government cannot search them, even without a warrant. Apple deliberately raised technological barriers that now stand between a lawful warrant and an iPhone containing evidence related to the terrorist mass murder of 14 Americans
 
The Federal government by it's admission screwed up the forensic handling of this phone and put themselves in a situation where established means of accessing the phone data from a backup is no longer possible. Now they want to force a manufacture to engineer a means of breaking their product in such a way that it would put them at risk for having to do a similar service for thousands of other cases in US, let alone what it would mean for them to service in internationally. Screw you guys and screw you for trying to use the threat of terrorism to make a company's reasonable actions somehow evil.
 
You know that as soon as the feds can crack into the phones of citizens the local cops will be doing the same. Those videos of cops kicking the sh_t out of some fool with expired tags or gunning down peaceful pets will be siezed and erased. I don't trust the government that much besides they're the idiots that let these terrorists into the country in the first place.
 
The thing is the FBI wants things handed to them on a silver platter, I'm sure they could simply ask Apple to manufacture the back door, force the install, get all the data, send that data to the FBI, then grab the phone and any hard drives that happen to have the code for the backdoor and give it a baptism by thermite, but nope, they're not asking for that, they want to keep all the code too... for future issues.
 
This makes my blood boil. Yes there are 100,000 employees but how many are software engineers that can write the new firmware needed? Not many I suspect. 80 hours of labor for 6 highly paid engineers is a LOT of money and a huge burden. Potentially tens of thousands of dollars. I am not pro-terrorist I am pro protecting our civil liberties. They want to set a precedent.
 
Ocean said:
Donald Trump has called for an apple boycott.

Donald Trump Wants America to Boycott Apple
Click to expand...
He said he would stop using his iphone and then his publicist said that he doesn't even own an iphone. Trump needs to diaf before he does that to this country.

Any average joe siding with the FBI on this doesn't understand that the courts heavily rely on precedence when making decisions. Giving in to the FBI's demands would undoubtedly set a precedence for future cases. Even if Apple destroys the firmware used to unlock the phone, the courts would just tell them to make another one.
 
I think the government is the one being a big baby! They think they have the right to everything and this makes me love encryption that much more.
 
Apple should send the FBI a pair of jackboots and a brown shirt.
 
So the government admits that Apple would have to do work in order for this to happen? They are not being held accountable for the crime, or in connection with the crime, but the government wants them to do work anyways?

13th Amendment
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Click to expand...

John McAffee may be crazy, but he brings up a good point.
 
OK, so we have the All Writs Act. According to this article, the All Writs Act basically comes down to this...

The All Writs Act is a United States federal statute, codified at 28 U.S.C.
1651, which authorizes the United States federal courts to "issue all writs
necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and
agreeable to the usages and principles of law."​

That law, as explained above, is so wide open and full of loopholes that you could technically apply it to just about anything. The All Writs Act is just as bad as The Patriot Act, maybe even worse.

We need to pass broad and sweeping decisions in an effort to fight terrorism. Gee, that sounds a lot like something Hitler said back when the Nazi's were in power in Germany. Do we really want to stoop to the level of Hitler and the Nazis? No.

Those who do not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

Yes, I went there because that's where we're heading. We're heading right down the same road that Nazi Germany went down a little over half a century ago. Right into the world of Fascism with Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini. Again, those who do not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

I see it because I see the world with my eyes wide open. I have neither Republican nor Democrat glasses on. I am a Moderate, capable of seeing the road that we're going down and it scares the living shit out of me.

God help us, God help us all.
 
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So what happened to the phone that cannot be unlocked anymore? and is there any other way to get data from it? I dont get that part.
 
MrTroy03 said:
They want to set a precedent.
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This, this so much.

I find it amazing I know people hating on Apple for this. I have never been fond of Apples GUI, but I give them a MASSIVE thumbs up for this. This has NOTHING to do with events that happened, it has to do with control, setting precedent in the courts for future abuse as well as having the code to do it when ever they want without a warrant. They will then not only be able to force Apple, but any other software maker to do the same kind of work arounds or backdoors into the software. Not only making them less secure but once at that point it is nothing for the courts to agree that even if no criminal events happened with whatever software is in question, they should still make the backdoor "just in case", you know, terrorists, child porn etc etc whatever the fear mongers are spewing that week.
 
You know at the end of all of this, if they finally do open up the phone...it will have nothing incriminating on it other than loads of "On my way!" and "Do you want me to pick up takeout?" texts.
 
As soon as I heard about this Apple vs FBI stuff I called it BS. The FBI has had back doors in everything pretty much forever. I remember working with a guy who put backdoors in HP print servers in the 80s. If you think that they don't have complete access to EVERYTHING you are naive to the max.

Then this comes out....Snowden says the same damn thing.

Edward Snowden: FBI's claim it needs Apple to unlock iPhone is 'bull****'
 
The Government wants Apple to do this because it doesnt have anyone smart enough to crack it?!!
 
daglesj said:
You know at the end of all of this, if they finally do open up the phone...it will have nothing incriminating on it other than loads of "On my way!" and "Do you want me to pick up takeout?" texts.
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I wouldn't put it past them to plant some evidence to justify their actions.
 
6 programmers x 10 days x 8 hours/day * $50/hour = $24,000

Protecting you against unwarranted taps: Priceless.
 
daglesj said:
You know at the end of all of this, if they finally do open up the phone...it will have nothing incriminating on it other than loads of "On my way!" and "Do you want me to pick up takeout?" texts.
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The Feds can't possibly expect to find anything. They are just straight-up fishing. This is the one device that the shooters did not destroy before their act. The guy had enough sense to not use his WORK PHONE to record meetings with possible conspirators.
 
DocSavage said:
I wouldn't put it past them to plant some evidence to justify their actions.
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Officials hate egg on their face. The Bush administration for the longest time couldn't admit their justification for Iraq War 2 was weapons of mass destruction was a sham. They tried to fabricate as much as they could.

And look at Hillary and the current private email scandal...

Or Lois Learner and the IRS tax scandal.

And I know of two cases where police come busting down a house on an anonymous tip and they tell the newspapers, "We found the suspects with a controlled class 1 drug" and that controlled class 1 drug was a legal script for perkiset because they just had surgery.

Or the DA who went after minor for CP distribution. When it was discovered his machine was set up as a zombie relay point with tons of viruses, the DA had to drop the CP charge and tried to prosecute the kid for looking at Pr0n. (He was 14)...Let me repeat that for you....They wanted to prosecute a kid at 14 for taking a glimpse at Pr0n...They wanted to give him the stigma of a lifetime sexual offender and drag his name publicly through the mud. WTF? Why? Because the DA offices have to save face, because when they have to drop or lose a case the office looks bad.

And I knew a police officer who illegally accessed an ex felons records...why? Because the officer was looking for evidence to throw the guy in jail. Why? Because the ex-con used to date the officer's girlfriend, and the con was coming over. Needless to say the police officer was fired and the con's conviction thrown out.

Those in power will drag anyone through the mud if it furthers their agenda of looking good.
 
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Tim Cook is re-living the grief given to Phil Zimmerman (and Pretty Good Privacy aka PGP) by the federal government way back when.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
6 programmers x 10 days x 8 hours/day * $50/hour = $24,000

Protecting you against unwarranted taps: Priceless.
Click to expand...
That $50/hr may be what the workers are paid, but the company pays at least that much more for benefits, matching social security, the office space, etc. So more likely 6 x 10 x 8 x $100 = $48,000 + whatever the level of security is necessary to make sure spies and/or the government doesn't break in and steal the code.
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
As soon as I heard about this Apple vs FBI stuff I called it BS. The FBI has had back doors in everything pretty much forever. I remember working with a guy who put backdoors in HP print servers in the 80s. If you think that they don't have complete access to EVERYTHING you are naive to the max.

Then this comes out....Snowden says the same damn thing.

Edward Snowden: FBI's claim it needs Apple to unlock iPhone is 'bull****'
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I may have missed it, but it doesn't reveal why he thinks that.....other then just saying its BS. Apple may have ways of decrypting the data once in, but that's not the issue.

I think Snowdens glasses are BS, but thats just me.
 
I don't know about the FBI, but it's well known the NSA has cracked very phone encryption there is...including the very hard to hack blackberry. (Thanks to the Snowden leaks.) I wouldn't be surprised of the FBI didn't have such tools as well as fishing attacks which bypass phone security and install root changes.

The spy agencies have been a little sneaky and bastard clause which says, "They don't have to identify the source of their information if it could compromise their source" And to be honest this exemption claim, which prevents you from facing your accuser, cross examining the accuser (or data in question), is used more then not lately. (Stingray devices anyone?) And this kind of swarmy clause protects the spy agency from getting the case kicked out because they know if that information was gained from a tap without a warrant, a judge would throw the book at the agency in question.

It's the same joke as the FISA courts which rubber stamp 99% of all request for taps. The security agency in question just judge shops till they find one who will issues the request.
 
westrock2000 said:
So the government admits that Apple would have to do work in order for this to happen? They are not being held accountable for the crime, or in connection with the crime, but the government wants them to do work anyways?



John McAffee may be crazy, but he brings up a good point.
Click to expand...

Like all governments, the US government has a team of charlatans, huckster, and sophists in the form of the Supreme Court to invent exceptions to their supposed "constitution" and to creatively reinterpret the meanings of the English language. The US government practices slavery in the form of both jury "duty" and "selective" service; the Supreme Court simply redefined the definition of servitude under their to not include anything the state deems as a "duty" rather than "slavery".
 
Iunno, from some of the interviews I've heard of John McAffee, he seems very sane. Eccentric, sure, but sane.

And I ust heard, from his interviews, that the issue is one that the FBI/Cops made themselves. Apparently, after they got the phone, the FBI called the cops who had it in their possession, and had the password changed, but then lost the password. This seems like incompetence of the highest level. And basically, now they are demanding Apple to fix their incompetence with goading. Seriously, FBI can go fuck themselves, if all that is true.
 
Different agencies have different priorities and measuring of risk. Like with the cracking of Enigma...they didn't use their knowledge to stop every little attack, because that would have clued the Germans in that their code was known, so they would change it.

Similarly, even if the NSA cracked iPhone encryption, they're not going to use it to solve every case, even if the FBI wanted them to.
 
EchtoGammut said:
The Federal government by it's admission screwed up the forensic handling of this phone and put themselves in a situation where established means of accessing the phone data from a backup is no longer possible. Now they want to force a manufacture to engineer a means of breaking their product in such a way that it would put them at risk for having to do a similar service for thousands of other cases in US, let alone what it would mean for them to service in internationally. Screw you guys and screw you for trying to use the threat of terrorism to make a company's reasonable actions somehow evil.
Click to expand...

So, it doesn't mean they still don't have a job to do and don't need Apple's help to get it done. Every case is it's own animal. The Judge in New York ruled that the for several reasons, including the arguments made for and against, that the FBI has not made it's case strong enough that the All Writs Act can be used to force Apple's Assistance. You could take this same exact case to another court and the lawyers offer different arguments and all of a sudden a Judge says no problem, Apple do it.

It's clear from Judge Orenstein's ruling that it's not a clear black and white thing and the process is subject to many factors.

As for making them do this in thousands of other cases, read Orenstein's ruling for yourself. What I get from it is that no matter how this one goes, every other one will have to face it's own sett of specific circumstances and a determination made.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Different agencies have different priorities and measuring of risk. Like with the cracking of Enigma...they didn't use their knowledge to stop every little attack, because that would have clued the Germans in that their code was known, so they would change it.

Similarly, even if the NSA cracked iPhone encryption, they're not going to use it to solve every case, even if the FBI wanted them to.
Click to expand...

Pretty astute comments overall. Besides, the NSA isn't law enforcement so unless your "case" involves National Defense, the DoD, foreign Intelligence, they aren't going to crack anything cause they can't.

That being said, yes, if they did it all the time in the open, it would divulge a capability and they don't like doing that.
 
damicatz said:
Like all governments, the US government has a team of charlatans, huckster, and sophists in the form of the Supreme Court to invent exceptions to their supposed "constitution" and to creatively reinterpret the meanings of the English language. The US government practices slavery in the form of both jury "duty" and "selective" service; the Supreme Court simply redefined the definition of servitude under their to not include anything the state deems as a "duty" rather than "slavery".
Click to expand...


Damicatz, you're always a riot.
 
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DigitalGriffin said:
I don't know about the FBI, but it's well known the NSA has cracked very phone encryption there is...including the very hard to hack blackberry. (Thanks to the Snowden leaks.) I wouldn't be surprised of the FBI didn't have such tools as well as fishing attacks which bypass phone security and install root changes.

The spy agencies have been a little sneaky and bastard clause which says, "They don't have to identify the source of their information if it could compromise their source" And to be honest this exemption claim, which prevents you from facing your accuser, cross examining the accuser (or data in question), is used more then not lately. (Stingray devices anyone?) And this kind of swarmy clause protects the spy agency from getting the case kicked out because they know if that information was gained from a tap without a warrant, a judge would throw the book at the agency in question.

It's the same joke as the FISA courts which rubber stamp 99% of all request for taps. The security agency in question just judge shops till they find one who will issues the request.
Click to expand...

Spy Agencies (Intelligence Agencies) are DoD components and as such do not make "accusations" and do not become "accusers" that someone needs to face.

Intelligence Agnecies collect information, process it, analyze it, and provide Military Leaders with knowledge they need in order to make decisions.

Intelligence Agencies don't charge people with crimes.

I challenge you to find one example of any of the organizations on this wiki page having charged anyone with a crime with the exception of Military Service members who have violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Find one. You can't. Because you are talking about Judicial Actions relevant to Law Enforcement duties which the Intelligence Community doesn't do.

DigitalGriffin, you have an argument. I'll admit you have valid points.

But you need to find a different donkey to pin the tail on and refine your knowledge of the subject just a little.

Spy Agencies do not put people in front of Judges and the FBI is not part of the DoD, they are part of the DoJ, Law Enforcement.
 
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