Why should we not include suicides?
Because you can't honestly blame the gun for killing you if you do it yourself.
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Why should we not include suicides?
Because you can't honestly blame the gun for killing you if you do it yourself.
The 1st amendment is a dump idea as well. It allows people like you to hide behind a document being you the ability to spout off nonsense with no recourse. Clearly the founders of this country didn't have you in mind when they crafted that.
That's not entirely true. Suicides aren't the result of a rational mind. Suicide assessment includes ideation, having a plan, and having the means to execute that plan. Having an easily accessible gun is a huge risk increase for someone with suicidal ideation.
So yea, you kinda can blame the gun, because in most cases, if the person didn't have access to it, they wouldn't have committed suicide.
Full disclosure: My wife does mental health evaluations in an emergency room, including suicide assessment. I'm not pulling it out of my behind.
No, you still can't blame the gun. If a person smokes themselves out using carbon monoxide in their garage, do you blame the car? If they crash into a tree without a seatbelt, do you blame the seatbelt? If they pull a weapon on a cop hoping to get shot do you blame the cops? If they hang themselves, do you blame easily accessible rope? Your argument is ridiculous.
Full disclosure: I'm the one who has to go serve the 302 warrants to get these people from their home to your wife.
If the person wouldn't have killed themselves if they didn't have the gun, then yeah, you kind of can.
If they want to kill themselves, they will find a way to do it regardless of whether or not they have access to a gun.
No, pay attention, I just explained that that's not true. Gun nuts trot that out, but it is 100% false. Suicides happen in a moment. Its not a longing desire that the person will drive themselves to achieve. They reach for the gun and its not there, maybe they hurt themselves somehow, maybe not, but there is a very large chance that they do not end up killing themselves at all. Like 90+%
So then why don't you rail against sleeping pills. The "spur of the moment" choice isn't a firearm, but a fistfull of pills in my experience...
Oh wait...that doesn't fit into your anti-gun narrative.
That's not entirely true. Suicides aren't the result of a rational mind. Suicide assessment includes ideation, having a plan, and having the means to execute that plan. Having an easily accessible gun is a huge risk increase for someone with suicidal ideation.
So yea, you kinda can blame the gun, because in most cases, if the person didn't have access to it, they wouldn't have committed suicide.
Full disclosure: My wife does mental health evaluations in an emergency room, including suicide assessment. I'm not pulling it out of my behind.
So you are saying someone in the state of mind to commit suicide will say:
"Ahh fuck it I was going to order a home made untraceable gun, but I have to use UPS shipping because FedEx won't ship it.. ARGHH @#^%@#$%^ motherfucker!!! I might as well live!"
NOT
"Well fuck, no gun... hmm where can I find a knife, razor, bunch of pills, etc..."
If the person wouldn't have killed themselves if they didn't have the gun, then yeah, you kind of can.
Suicides happen in a moment. Its not a longing desire that the person will drive themselves to achieve.
So then why don't you rail against sleeping pills. The "spur of the moment" choice isn't a firearm, but a fistfull of pills in my experience...
Oh wait...that doesn't fit into your anti-gun narrative.
Source?
I find it hard to believe that suicide isn't premeditated in a large majority of cases. The actual act may be somewhat spur of the moment, but I don't believe the decision to do so is.
Are you being obtuse or are you [insert insult here]? The US has a higher population than the UK.
So then why don't you rail against sleeping pills. The "spur of the moment" choice isn't a firearm, but a fistfull of pills in my experience...
Oh wait...that doesn't fit into your anti-gun narrative.
*cough*righttorefuseservice*cough*
Doesn't look like it hit's any of the 4 major target vectors, so it looks to me like it falls under the business' rights and is not discrimination, at least according to the law.
Suicides happen in a moment. Its not a longing desire that the person will drive themselves to achieve.
The source is my wife, a clinically trained psychotherapist who does suicide assessments as part of her job as a mental health evaluator in an emergency room.
They'd have the same liability as if they shipped someone a circuit etching board, electronic components from digikey and some ammonium nitrate.So if FedEx shipped one of these to a convicted felon they would have no liability if that person then manufactured a gun with the equipment and then used it the commission of a crime?
I've seen a bit of the research on this and maverikv is pretty much spot on (and his point doesn't disagree with yours). If you can intervene during that spur of the moment decision to actually act then the suicide is drastically reduced in likelihood.Source?
I find it hard to believe that suicide isn't premeditated in a large majority of cases. The actual act may be somewhat spur of the moment, but I don't believe the decision to do so is.
not a cause or contributing factor to people deciding to end their lives, but rather to actually ending their lives. to following through with their decision.Suicide happens for all sorts of reasons, in some cultures it is/has been acceptable and common, ours just happens to have a stigma attached to it. To death in general but that's another matter.
Trying to pin firearms as a cause or contributing factor to persons deciding to end their own lives is ridiculous. Our society seems to like to find anything and everything to blame for unpleasantness other than ourselves.
Maybe if the "kids" would stop mowing down each other...
The fact is if you took black and Hispanic gun homicides out of the equation the US would have a rate of gun violence comparable to any European country.
You can understand why some people wouldn't want their rights taken away because of the misbehavior of others.
They'd have the same liability as if they shipped someone a circuit etching board, electronic components from digikey and some ammonium nitrate.
Which is to say that they'd have 0 liability. Tools, components and chemicals do not indicate intent. Someone could just be an electronic hobbyist and want to fertilize their garden or they could want to make a bomb. It's not up to fed ex to try and determine this.
Needless to say that manufacturing your own firearm is 100% legal.
Someone needs to sue fed ex for denying service under baseless grounds.
You're missing the conversation in context.Blaming of the inanimate object for failings of ourselves/society/relationships.
I get what you're saying, I do, I've lost two friends to suicide both by firearms.
But I'm not afraid of guns, I don't hate guns, I don't blame guns.
I'm more afraid of chainsaws, those things are really easy to get hurt with
by only the slightest bit of carelessness.
In one case I blame myself and my group of friends and her parents and boyfriend
because we didn't see it. I was all of sixteen at the time twenty years ago
so that's some excuse, but still.
The second was a former co-worker I hadn't seen in ages but was someone
worth mourning his absence in the world.
But I never blamed the gun, it's like blaming the road a person died in a car
wreck on, or the car. It's a deadend street both emotionally and logically.
(no pun intended)
The trouble with using suicide rates as justification for firearms being bad or needing
to be restricted, is you are punishing the masses for the acts of the few.
And that is never, ever, ever ok. It will breed nothing but hate and division.
Can you please cite her peer reviewed clinical study?
Thanks.
I've seen a bit of the research on this and maverikv is pretty much spot on (and his point doesn't disagree with yours). If you can intervene during that spur of the moment decision to actually act then the suicide is drastically reduced in likelihood.
When we train people in suicide response some little tricks we engage in are things like making bargains with people and giving them responsibilities, like promising that they'll talk to you the next morning or having to feed a pet. It's really just that last step that is a real fleeting kind of feeling that, if not addressed, leads to their actual suicide. Even pills don't have the lethality of a gun in this regard because there's more time to intervene, which is why the suicides by pills you hear about are generally exacerbated by alcohol and/or a mixture of drugs where first responders can't bring the patient back.
Even if you and I agree that, subjectively, suicide should not be a crime, it currently is classified as a crime.Sorry I did miss that part.
I disagree that suicide is a crime, it's a choice, and one of the most personal ones an individual can make. This notion is a Western/Religions one by and large and even today a number of countries have decriminalized it if it ever was. It's a provincial attitude at best.
Pot was a crime once, and slowly but surely people are coming to understand that it's not and never was.
I wouldn't expect suicides to be part of violent crime statistics if I was evaluating such.
Totally different.
No, pay attention, I just explained that that's not true. Gun nuts trot that out, but it is 100% false. Suicides happen in a moment. Its not a longing desire that the person will drive themselves to achieve. They reach for the gun and its not there, maybe they hurt themselves somehow, maybe not, but there is a very large chance that they do not end up killing themselves at all. Like 90+%
Nonsense. Plenty of people have suicidal thoughts for months or even years. Also do explain why Japan has a much higher suicide rate than Switzerland and the US, both countries high in gun ownership, while Japan essentially has no private firearms?
We should ban livingthat'll take the suicide rate down to zero.
The source is my wife, a clinically trained psychotherapist who does suicide assessments as part of her job as a mental health evaluator in an emergency room.
There's a difference between ideation and having a plan and the means to execute it. You could have suicidal thoughts your whole life and never act on them. The decision to grab the gun and pull the trigger is a spur of the moment decision. Doesn't really matter if you believe that or not.