Because you can't honestly blame the gun for killing you if you do it yourself.
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FedEx Refuses To Ship Machine That Can Make Untraceable Guns
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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Because you can't honestly blame the gun for killing you if you do it yourself.
*cough*righttorefuseservice*cough*
The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
Doesn't look like it hit's any of the 4 major target vectors, so it looks to me like it falls under the business' rights and is not discrimination, at least according to the law.
It would be like a porn distributor complaining PBS won't show their smut. They have other venues for their product; Skin-a-max, H.B.hOe, the INTERNET!, etc... so one business' refusal of service is not detrimental to the business in question. (even if it was, a free market would say take the market sector over yourself and make $$$, but I digress and it's not quite as relevant due to it being about shipping and there are tons of options available outside of FedEx)
While I might be all about the Bill of Rights and freedom, you have to remember business' have some freedom as well, they aren't your bitch even though they provide a service and "the customer is always right". It's nice to see a company stand up for something they believe in on a moral stand without it being complete douchebaggery. At the end of the day, if they don't want to accept the $ from XYZ business to ship something they are only hurting their own pocket books, unless the public opinion is more in line with the decision; in which case the moral decision can actually create more revenue.
Either way, we will see how it works out from the safety of our armchairs and monitors rofl!
The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
Doesn't look like it hit's any of the 4 major target vectors, so it looks to me like it falls under the business' rights and is not discrimination, at least according to the law.
It would be like a porn distributor complaining PBS won't show their smut. They have other venues for their product; Skin-a-max, H.B.hOe, the INTERNET!, etc... so one business' refusal of service is not detrimental to the business in question. (even if it was, a free market would say take the market sector over yourself and make $$$, but I digress and it's not quite as relevant due to it being about shipping and there are tons of options available outside of FedEx)
While I might be all about the Bill of Rights and freedom, you have to remember business' have some freedom as well, they aren't your bitch even though they provide a service and "the customer is always right". It's nice to see a company stand up for something they believe in on a moral stand without it being complete douchebaggery. At the end of the day, if they don't want to accept the $ from XYZ business to ship something they are only hurting their own pocket books, unless the public opinion is more in line with the decision; in which case the moral decision can actually create more revenue.
Either way, we will see how it works out from the safety of our armchairs and monitors rofl!
That's not entirely true. Suicides aren't the result of a rational mind. Suicide assessment includes ideation, having a plan, and having the means to execute that plan. Having an easily accessible gun is a huge risk increase for someone with suicidal ideation.
So yea, you kinda can blame the gun, because in most cases, if the person didn't have access to it, they wouldn't have committed suicide.
Full disclosure: My wife does mental health evaluations in an emergency room, including suicide assessment. I'm not pulling it out of my behind.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Based on your response, I think it's pretty safe to say you totally don't understand where the 1st amendment is supposed to apply.
Despite your not understanding it, I do agree with you that it needs to be reexamined too so we can legally put greater control on people who assemble in protest of the government or advocate doing stupid stuff to mess it all up for us sane people who just wanna hang out and hug our pet cats.
kirbyrj
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No, you still can't blame the gun. If a person smokes themselves out using carbon monoxide in their garage, do you blame the car? If they crash into a tree without a seatbelt, do you blame the seatbelt? If they pull a weapon on a cop hoping to get shot do you blame the cops? If they hang themselves, do you blame easily accessible rope? Your argument is ridiculous.
Full disclosure: I'm the one who has to go serve the 302 warrants to get these people from their home to your wife.
If the person wouldn't have killed themselves if they didn't have the gun, then yeah, you kind of can.
kirbyrj
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If they want to kill themselves, they will find a way to do it regardless of whether or not they have access to a gun.
No, pay attention, I just explained that that's not true. Gun nuts trot that out, but it is 100% false. Suicides happen in a moment. Its not a longing desire that the person will drive themselves to achieve. They reach for the gun and its not there, maybe they hurt themselves somehow, maybe not, but there is a very large chance that they do not end up killing themselves at all. Like 90+%
kirbyrj
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So then why don't you rail against sleeping pills. The "spur of the moment" choice isn't a firearm, but a fistfull of pills in my experience...
Oh wait...that doesn't fit into your anti-gun narrative.
Cuz we're talking about whether we can count suicide in the gun death numbers?
If we were talking about sleeping pills, we would include sleeping pill murders? as well as suicides.
So you are saying someone in the state of mind to commit suicide will say:
"Ahh fuck it I was going to order a home made untraceable gun, but I have to use UPS shipping because FedEx won't ship it.. ARGHH @#^%@#$%^ motherfucker!!! I might as well live!"
NOT
"Well fuck, no gun... hmm where can I find a knife, razor, bunch of pills, etc..."
No, I'm saying the gun death number should include suicide because "They would just find another way to kill themselves" is false and represents a misunderstanding of suicide.
Oh you mean like the lead singer from Boston. He set up a house from his car to the bathroom window and had a charcoal grill set up in the bathroom. After he made sure he had a redundant system set up he locked himself in the bathroom and never woke up. Maybe we should bad cars and grills now.
Parja
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Source?
I find it hard to believe that suicide isn't premeditated in a large majority of cases. The actual act may be somewhat spur of the moment, but I don't believe the decision to do so is.
I would have to agree with you kirbyrj, well at least in my experience in hearing about people of influence off themselves this time last year, none of them used a gun! It could just be the business though... maybe poor people fit the anti-gun narrative better???
Five top officials from JPMorgan Chase, Deutsche Bank, and the Federal Reserve have all turned up dead over the course of two weeks.
Each was ruled by coroners to have taken their own lives.
Dueker, 50, was a chief economist at Russell Investments. He had been missing since January 29th. Anonymous sources said that he had been having troubles at work, but no further details, nor sources were disclosed.
Days before, on Sunday, William Broeksmit, 58, a former senior manager for Deutsche Bank, was found dead in his home as well. He was hanging from a rope, in what was ruled a suicide.
The very next day, on January 27th, Tata Motors managing director Karl Slym, 51, was found dead on the fourth floor of the Shangri-La hotel in Bangkok, Thailand. Police there are ruling it a suicide, but have not explained why. Slym was staying on the 22nd floor with his wife, and had not shown any signs of being suicidal.
On Tuesday, Gabriel Magee, 39, the vice president at JPMorgan Chase & Cos (JPM) London headquarters, was said to have killed himself as well, in the Canary Wharf area. He apparently jumped off a building, in what was also ruled a suicide.
Former Federal Reserve economist Mike Dueker has made the fourth in a growing and bizarre list of dead international bankers. Dueker was just found dead at his home near Tacoma, Washington.
The fifth in the two weeks of dead bankers is Richard Talley, 57, the founder and CEO of American Title Services in Centennial, Colorado, who has reportedly committed suicide by shooting himself in the head multiple times with a nail gun.
Thats right, Talley was said by coroners to have shot himself in the head with a nail gun, even after the first nails had entered his brain.
If only they had access to 3-D printed untraceable guns they could have actually committed suicide... oh wait... shit ummm.... what were we talking about again? Oh yea, even rich motherfucking millionaires commit suicide without using a gun because (this might be tough to grasp) other things can kill you besides a gun! OMG I just broke the internet!
The source is my wife, a clinically trained psychotherapist who does suicide assessments as part of her job as a mental health evaluator in an emergency room.
There's a difference between ideation and having a plan and the means to execute it. You could have suicidal thoughts your whole life and never act on them. The decision to grab the gun and pull the trigger is a spur of the moment decision. Doesn't really matter if you believe that or not.
We have a population that's four times greater. You can multiply can you? You can look it per capita if you want to we lead so drastically that you can compare us against the UK all day long. The results are the same. It's kind of funny that you used the word obtuse.
Tell me do you have any other make believe notions of any other racial groups?
Probably because:
A) We don't lead the world in suicides
B) Drugs are regulated. Heavily. If there ever was an epidemic of death by sleeping pills you can be assured something would be done about it. You don't need to believe me the CDC tracks this stuff.
All suicides
Number of deaths: 41,149
Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.0
Cause of death rank: 10
Firearm suicides
Number of deaths: 21,175
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7
Suffocation suicides
Number of deaths: 10,062
Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.2
Poisoning suicides
Number of deaths: 6,637
Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1
Now would you look at that. Notice how poisoning is the least used. BTW how's that "narrative" working out for you?
DocFaustus
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Yes, this whole topic sounds dangerously close to the "refusing to ship fertilizer to a Muslim" analogy brought up earlier. This is a slippery slope of thought. But as another gentleman helpfully pointed out:
This whole topic really isn't about guns at all. This is about FedEx unilaterally deciding that they don't want ship a particular item. I'm really torn here, on one side, I believe they do have the right to refuse service for whatever reason... hell it's their business not mine. On the other side, I do have a problem with them trying to decide what items I should or should not have delivered for no good reason.. What if I wanted to purchase a new ATI video card, but they only want to deliver nVidia?
Back to the actual product:
Is the product itself legal? Yes
Is primary product produced by the product legal? Yes
Really? Even in California? Yes
So Fedex can really go fuck themselves because if they will not deliver it, then just use that government agency known as the US Postal Service to deliver it. They have no problems delivering that item.
Let me know if you fully appreciate the sweet irony in that last statement
This whole topic really isn't about guns at all. This is about FedEx unilaterally deciding that they don't want ship a particular item. I'm really torn here, on one side, I believe they do have the right to refuse service for whatever reason... hell it's their business not mine. On the other side, I do have a problem with them trying to decide what items I should or should not have delivered for no good reason.. What if I wanted to purchase a new ATI video card, but they only want to deliver nVidia?
Back to the actual product:
Is the product itself legal? Yes
Is primary product produced by the product legal? Yes
Really? Even in California? Yes
So Fedex can really go fuck themselves because if they will not deliver it, then just use that government agency known as the US Postal Service to deliver it. They have no problems delivering that item.
Let me know if you fully appreciate the sweet irony in that last statement
I saw a young man jump off a scafolding on the side of First Canadian Place - 42 floors up - I will never forget him standing and looking down for about 30 seconds or so before he jumped or the sickening explosion when he impacted. He climbed up 420 feet of metal rack to do this - nothing spontaneous.
Gigus Fire
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They'd have the same liability as if they shipped someone a circuit etching board, electronic components from digikey and some ammonium nitrate.
Which is to say that they'd have 0 liability. Tools, components and chemicals do not indicate intent. Someone could just be an electronic hobbyist and want to fertilize their garden or they could want to make a bomb. It's not up to fed ex to try and determine this.
Needless to say that manufacturing your own firearm is 100% legal.
Someone needs to sue fed ex for denying service under baseless grounds.
I've seen a bit of the research on this and maverikv is pretty much spot on (and his point doesn't disagree with yours). If you can intervene during that spur of the moment decision to actually act then the suicide is drastically reduced in likelihood.
When we train people in suicide response some little tricks we engage in are things like making bargains with people and giving them responsibilities, like promising that they'll talk to you the next morning or having to feed a pet. It's really just that last step that is a real fleeting kind of feeling that, if not addressed, leads to their actual suicide. Even pills don't have the lethality of a gun in this regard because there's more time to intervene, which is why the suicides by pills you hear about are generally exacerbated by alcohol and/or a mixture of drugs where first responders can't bring the patient back.
Suicide happens for all sorts of reasons, in some cultures it is/has been acceptable and common, ours just happens to have a stigma attached to it. To death in general but that's another matter.
Trying to pin firearms as a cause or contributing factor to persons deciding to end their own lives is ridiculous. Our society seems to like to find anything and everything to blame for unpleasantness other than ourselves.
Trying to pin firearms as a cause or contributing factor to persons deciding to end their own lives is ridiculous. Our society seems to like to find anything and everything to blame for unpleasantness other than ourselves.
not a cause or contributing factor to people deciding to end their lives, but rather to actually ending their lives. to following through with their decision.
Blaming of the inanimate object for failings of ourselves/society/relationships.
I get what you're saying, I do, I've lost two friends to suicide both by firearms.
But I'm not afraid of guns, I don't hate guns, I don't blame guns.
I'm more afraid of chainsaws, those things are really easy to get hurt with
by only the slightest bit of carelessness.
In one case I blame myself and my group of friends and her parents and boyfriend
because we didn't see it. I was all of sixteen at the time twenty years ago
so that's some excuse, but still.
The second was a former co-worker I hadn't seen in ages but was someone
worth mourning his absence in the world.
But I never blamed the gun, it's like blaming the road a person died in a car
wreck on, or the car. It's a deadend street both emotionally and logically.
(no pun intended)
The trouble with using suicide rates as justification for firearms being bad or needing
to be restricted, is you are punishing the masses for the acts of the few.
And that is never, ever, ever ok. It will breed nothing but hate and division.
I get what you're saying, I do, I've lost two friends to suicide both by firearms.
But I'm not afraid of guns, I don't hate guns, I don't blame guns.
I'm more afraid of chainsaws, those things are really easy to get hurt with
by only the slightest bit of carelessness.
In one case I blame myself and my group of friends and her parents and boyfriend
because we didn't see it. I was all of sixteen at the time twenty years ago
so that's some excuse, but still.
The second was a former co-worker I hadn't seen in ages but was someone
worth mourning his absence in the world.
But I never blamed the gun, it's like blaming the road a person died in a car
wreck on, or the car. It's a deadend street both emotionally and logically.
(no pun intended)
The trouble with using suicide rates as justification for firearms being bad or needing
to be restricted, is you are punishing the masses for the acts of the few.
And that is never, ever, ever ok. It will breed nothing but hate and division.
You can post dangerous things that get shipped all you want but the fact is they cannot be used to create more of said dangerous object.
This device allows people to make untraceable firearms in mass quantities.
If people cannot understand this or the fact that FedEx has a legal right to deny you shipping then we are just going to go nowhere.
If that person wants to ship the device then they can drive it themselves.
Riccochet
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I have news for you. All firearms are untraceable. Unless it's a registered machine gun. I own at least a dozen that were purchased in the 30's to 50's that were given to me. ZOMG I own ghost guns!
You're missing the conversation in context.
He didn't include suicide numbers to say guns were bad.
Someone made the ludicrous (and racist) statement that if you remove all hispanic and black gun murders from the stats then our gun deaths in this country line up with gun deaths in other countries.
That's not true...and suicide by guns (which is a crime) is part of those data and obviously should be included in the discussion about how much "gun crime" or "gun deaths" occur in the US.
Are you kidding me?
Its textbook suicide assessment. Ideation, planning, and means. That's how its done. My wife didn't invent it.
Sorry I did miss that part.
I disagree that suicide is a crime, it's a choice, and one of the most personal ones an individual can make. This notion is a Western/Religions one by and large and even today a number of countries have decriminalized it if it ever was. It's a provincial attitude at best.
Pot was a crime once, and slowly but surely people are coming to understand that it's not and never was.
I wouldn't expect suicides to be part of violent crime statistics if I was evaluating such.
Totally different.
I disagree that suicide is a crime, it's a choice, and one of the most personal ones an individual can make. This notion is a Western/Religions one by and large and even today a number of countries have decriminalized it if it ever was. It's a provincial attitude at best.
Pot was a crime once, and slowly but surely people are coming to understand that it's not and never was.
I wouldn't expect suicides to be part of violent crime statistics if I was evaluating such.
Totally different.
Yes, exactly. They make plans / deals with the patient.
Even if you and I agree that, subjectively, suicide should not be a crime, it currently is classified as a crime.
And even if it became legal it would still be considered part of a larger discussion surrounding how much gun death occurs in any given country.
When I compare crime, deviance, or deaths by guns across countries I have to include suicides or I wouldn't be doing a very good job. It's not like we can simply exclude one particular category of human behavior from a discussion because of ideology.
It's simply not true that removing all hispanic and black homicides from our data puts us in line with other countries when it comes to crimes and/or deaths with guns.
Why that is true is beyond the scope of this thread, it's really beyond my desire to explain or offer a professional opinion about, and given what goes down in past threads and namely one in particular right now with respect to gendered pay gaps leads me to believe that the community here by and large isn't concerned with an academic discussion in any case.
Flogger23m
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Nonsense. Plenty of people have suicidal thoughts for months or even years. Also do explain why Japan has a much higher suicide rate than Switzerland and the US, both countries high in gun ownership, while Japan essentially has no private firearms?
There's a difference between having a suicidal thought and blowing your brains out
D
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We should ban living—that'll take the suicide rate down to zero.
I can tell you are looking at this subject as an intellectual with this stunning post of yours.
FearTheCow
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So you have no source, nice, how about linking to some kind of document hat proves what you said instead of using your (likely liberal) wife's anecdotes.