FDA Chief Threatens to Take E-cigarettes off the Market

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. mope54

    mope54 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,428
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    lmfao, your post is contradictory

    The government can't just decide to dictate to businesses that they can't sell an unregulated product to kids. They can't just say, "stop selling vapes to kids," for example, in the same manner they can't say, "stop selling chewing gum to kids." What they've been doing is asking companies to self-regulate but the companies are not doing so.

    The thread from these "government assholes" is to require the industry to adhere to regulations. They have to pull the product, mark it as a regulated product, and force it through government approval...like tobacco products.

    So how is this "government assholes" and not exactly what you are asking for (why don't they just stop selling it to kids)? They're literally trying to do the thing you're angry at them for not doing. More to the point, why would anyone be against regulating vaping to keep them out of the hands of children? We can't put this on parents' heads or school staff. We already had this debate about cigarettes over 30 years ago and resolved it.
     
  2. Riccochet

    Riccochet Off Topic Award

    Messages:
    21,573
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    I think you missed the point. Nicotine is already illegal to sell to minors. If it's being sold to minors then they should go after the businesses that are selling it to minors. Not take it out of the hands of those that are adults and use it responsibly.
     
  3. mope54

    mope54 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,428
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    I'm in favor of regulating tobacco products in this country. This debate was hard fought and already won several decades ago. If you're not in favor of regulating tobacco products in this country, you are waging a lost battle. No amount of griping in this thread is going to change the direction of our nation's laws and culture at this point. When I was in my 20s smoking was ubiquitous. I also smoked for a little over 20 years but haven't smoked for 13. I quit without vape pens or nicotine patches or any other marketed crutches--they didn't exist when I decided to quit. As an ex-smoker, I can say without any doubt in my mind it's a destructive, expensive, and disgusting habit.

    I have no qualms against the government regulating it because I've seen first hand the behavior of these so-called "responsible adults" you're referring to. Butts all over the ground, flying out of windows, billows of smoke in restaurants, in our office spaces, then outside buildings hunched over ashtrays, and on and on until society finally got the message it was disgusting.

    The industry lied to its customers, it advertised to young children, and cost our country billions of dollars in health expenditures. I don't give a flying fuck about the "right" to smoke--there isn't one.

    This is just a new form of that whole bullshit from the same industry and, especially since I personally lived through it the first time, I'm not about to sit idly by and allow it to happen again in a different form.

    If you think there are legitimate uses for e-cigs, then by all means endorse their medical purpose. If you think "responsible" adults should be able to enjoy vape pens, with or without nicotine, then by all means advocate for your favorite company to seek FDA approval.

    Advocating for unregulated tobacco sales and consumption in this nation, at this point in time, under these conditions, is foolish and irresponsible.

    That's not even taking into account a huge segment of the market that is non-nicotine use. All these people vaping in malls, theaters, in their cars, etc., aren't vaping tobacco products. Most of them have never and would never smoke a cigarette in their life. If they hit a nic vape they'd vomit.

    Are you saying that they should continue to be sold to minors simply because they don't contain nicotine? They shouldn't be regulated at all? The industry isn't creative enough to launch products with synthetic nicotine that is as much or more addictive but outside regulatory scope because it's not a regulated product or chemical? How does that make any sense to you in the 21st century?

    This is just like the fake cigs they used to market and sell to us kids in the 70s-80s. Little candy cigs that we dipped into powdered sugar (frankly not much better than the nicotine) and blew out like "smoke."
     
    GoldenTiger likes this.
  4. Riccochet

    Riccochet Off Topic Award

    Messages:
    21,573
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Vaping is not a tobacco product. Nicotine is already a federally regulated product. As are the vegetable glycerin and flavorings added to the vape juice.

    Every part of vaping is already federally regulated. It's already illegal for someone under the age of 18 to purchase anything with nicotine in it.

    What, exactly, are you so pissed about?
     
  5. mope54

    mope54 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,428
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    It's clear you don't understand what is going on.

    The FDA sought regulatory power over e-cigs in 2016. While laws were passed to grant this authority, the FDA has relied on self-regulation from the industry. All nicotine products are regulated and this includes e-cigs with nicotine in them.

    Your first sentence acknowledges vape pens are not in and of themselves being regulated because they are not "nicotine products." Glycerin, flavorings, and other synthetic substances, along with the vape pens themselves are not regulated and can be sold and consumed by minors legally. You are either lying or misinformed when you claim that every step of the process is regulated.

    This article is about the FDA stepping in and asserting its regulatory authority since the industry is failing to regulate itself adequately. The laws exist but the FDA has not been regulating the industry and now they are considering it--they aren't proposing new laws, simply imposing the ones that were passed in 2016.

    One major unregulated aspect of this that you completely ignored is marketing. If you think that an industry can have unfettered advertisement and society can gatekeep the products on the local storefront, you are sadly mistaken.

    As I wrote earlier, we've already had this battle and your opinion that the tobacco and smoking industry can just whatever it pleases regardless of how it impacts our society and youth was soundly put to the death it deserved. You won't be able to roll back the clock a few decades, but my suspicion is you weren't alive back then and don't have a clue about how far we've come from then.[/I]
     
    GoldenTiger likes this.
  6. Riccochet

    Riccochet Off Topic Award

    Messages:
    21,573
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Anything labeled as safe for human consumption is regulated by the FDA. This included vegetable glycerin, food flavorings and anything we eat or ingest.

    The only thing not regulated by a government body is the device itself.

    The only thing that is failing is these products being sold to people under 18. He wants to ban them because kids are able to buy nicotine products? Seems like that's a job for the BATFE to enforce since nicotine is ALREADY A REGULATED DRUG.
     
  7. mope54

    mope54 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,428
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    The primary concern is regulation of non-nicotine advertisement and sales to minors. It's not entirely clear why you continue to ignore that point.

    USP Glycerin is regulated for food use, but that has nothing to do with safety in regards to smoking it nor does it have anything to do with regulation in regards to advertisement and sales to anyone--let alone minors. Regardless, most glycerin on the vape market is not USP Glycerin and falls outside regulatory scope because glycerin is not a regulated substance. The only reason USP Glycerin is regulated is because food is regulated under the FDA and, if you want to claim a substance is "food safe," it then falls under FDA regulation. That's a completely different situation from regulated drugs or unregulated food-like substances.

    The FDA also regulates chemicals in other food products like soda and potato chips. Yet, there is no oversight of how those products are marketed or sold to minors.

    Are you being intentionally obtuse or are you actually unaware of the distinction between FDA regulation of food safe products vis-a-vis FDA regulation of harmful chemicals like nicotine?

    If you can't understand these distinctions, walk into your local supermarket and look around the aisles. Almost all of that food stuff is regulated by the FDA, some of it is regulated by the USDA, and some of it is regulated at a higher level of scrutiny (eg, cigarettes and alcohol) than others (soda and chips; meat and poultry). It's bizarre you don't understand these distinctions but I'll chalk it up to disinformation campaigns leading you to believe all these products are adequately regulated already.

    You also ignored the point I made to you that, although there have been regulations in place since 2016 in regards to e-cigs, they haven't been implemented because the FDA has allowed the industry to self-regulate. They aren't doing a good job so the FDA is threatening to implement the 2016 law that already exists.

    You continue to make statements that I regard as factually incorrect. I'd like you post your evidence that substances like e-cig, non-nicotine flavorings are regulated by the FDA and restricted in their sales to minors. If you can't provide such evidence, stop posting it as fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  8. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,031
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    To the smokers here, i would recommend growing your own if vaping is not viable.
    It is a slow process, but rewarding. Growing your own has so much less shit in it you wouldn't believe.
    I don't smoke or vape anymore... But the ' they deserve to die' attitude smokers are treated is pretty shitty. The FDA taking away solutions from them is , well typicall shit lazy behavior... The only thing they should concern themselves is in the logical stuff.. regulations that the materials are pure and clean, and to study and gather data of the harm going forward.
    Selling to minors is outlawed already.
    One poster said it, and they are on video even...They want to outlaw small players, and only keep big ones, yet more lazy corrupt regulation. The outcome is the same for smokers and this terrible 'fuck'em' attitude.
    Its such a shit inmature way the US deals with addiction and peoples behavior.. its really shitty and mostly counter productive probably more costly really, than being more accepting and trying more humane things.
     
  9. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,419
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    I grew up on a tobacco farm, I've handled more tons of tobacco before I was 16 than you will smoke in 100 lifetimes. Nothing like being a teenager getting nicotine poisoning from working in the morning with dew on the plants, and absorbing it through your skin. yeah, that's a thing. strains being grown now are bred to increase nicotine production.

    I hate the stuff, I grew up on a farm where the tobacco crop paid the bills, and I would not regret seeing the shit banned. at all. it's killed tens of millions of people in this country and companies that have sold it did so knowing it was killing people. including a lot of my family over the years. At this point, it would not even affect the American economy, most of it is grown under sweat shop conditions in Africa and Turkey now.

    Did give me a chuckle, seeing that someone actually wants to grow the stuff as a hobby, it's a right pain in the ass to work in large quantities, and if you are growing it for yourself, well, it's a free country.
     
  10. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,419
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009

    You are confusing psychological addiction with physical addiction. there are certainly elements of both, to smoking, but the reason people have a hard time stopping smoking is the physical addiction to nicotine. you can divert a psychological addictions with other behavior, but when your body craves a substance, its going to be very hard to give it up without help.

    Sorry, but you really don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to physical addiction related to nicotine.
     
  11. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,830
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004
    EXACTLY. It's not the adult users that are the problem, but they'll bear the weight of any further regulations. It's just like many other things that are "regulated".

    High capacity magazines, AR rifles, and bumb stocks get banned or further regulated because of mass shootings, yet in the vast majority of "mass shootings", as classified by gone control advocates, aren't done with rifles, high capacity magazines, or bump stocks. They're done with handguns most of the time, and are typically gang or accident related, and mostly tied to young people. (Look into their statistics. One school "mass shooting" they included was when a gang member accidentally dropped a gun in a school parking lot and two people got hit by shrapnel from the one bullet that fired from the dropped gun, in the middle of the night when there were no students at the school. Because two people got hurt and it was on school grounds, it was included as a "school mass shooting" after the Newtown incident.) Yet, it is law abiding adults that bear the brunt of the regulations.

    In food contamination cases, methods of cooking and storing the food are targeted, even though the sources of the vast majority of contamination cases happen in production. It's even gotten to the point that there are many areas trying to bad the cooking of raw eggs, and when was the last time you heard of mass contamination because of undercooked or poorly stored eggs? Restaurants pay the price for what happens on farms.

    A big corporation goes bankrupt because of bad accounting practices and money spent on giving the C level management luxurious side benefits, and suddenly it becomes illegal to give employees company assets that would otherwise be thrown away, only sold to them at "market price". Company cars that have over 100,000 miles on them suddenly can't be sold to employees for a deep discount, only at "market price". Also, employees are suddenly burdened with annual inventory tasks overseen by government officials. The benefits of C level management didn't get restricted much, only made sure to be accounted for, but the regular workers have to bear the majority of the burden.

    the ACA didn't target health care costs. It pushed everyone to pay for insurance, and some to get help with those extra payments, but then the policies those people could afford after their help weren't even usable because of super high deductibles and copays. (Of the policies under $500/month in the Colorado exchange RIGHT NOW, all of them have a deductible of over $25,000 before they cover ANYTHING, and copays of $50-75 for visits. I know this because I recently had to shop for insurance while I'm in the contract phase of my "contract to hire" job. Guess what? Many doctors will give a discount to $40-50 for an office visit to people paying with cash and no insurance because then their office doesn't have to deal with filing the paperwork, which is quite time intensive. And, seriously, who making under $40,000/year is going to be able to cover $25,000 in medical expenses before their insurance even kicks in?) They get to claim that hundreds of thousands of people are now insured, with unusable insurance. It's all just a funnel of government money from "assistance" to their political allies. In the mean time, regular people now have an increase in insurance costs, more traffic at the doctors' offices so that we can't get appointments for weeks, makers of medical equipment get taxed more, and doctors getting paid less for their more work.

    It's because many such things aren't for the protection of anyone. They don't fix any particular problem. They've gone after other targets because the politicians want power, but leave the problem in place so that they can claim "the old measures didn't go far enough" and push for more power later. This thing with vaping is no different. It's just a push for more power for the bureaucrats with no actual fix to the problem.