FDA Chief Threatens to Take E-cigarettes off the Market

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. THRESHIN

    THRESHIN 2[H]4U

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    The problem with this line of thought is that you're demonizing nicotine. At least at the levels humans ingest (or inhale) at, its virtually harmless.

    Keep in mind that I did not say that vaping is harmless. Its not. Its just far safer than a cigarette. I could toss out a mountain of links to research and I'm sure you can do the same to prove the opposite. Then we can argue what data is BS and what isn't.

    There's one thing that I find interesting though. The main cancer causing agent in cigarettes... Is radioactive alpha particles. This causes about 2/3 of lung cancer in smokers.

    And here we are worried about flavours. How about worry about keeping it out of the hands of children? We don't seem to want to ban tobacco for this.
     
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  2. Lifelite

    Lifelite 2[H]4U

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    When I grew up kids used to sneak out and smoke cigarettes by the Gym almost every day in high school. Now days the same types of kids are vaping...not really that big of a deal.

    All this always ends up being is big tobacco trying to weaponize the government...not sure if that's exactly this FDAs chiefs motive, but this is some dumb shit.

    My wife has smoked for 12 years, and just recently I got her to switch over to vaping, talk about life improvement.
     
  3. Smashing Young Man

    Smashing Young Man [H]ard|Gawd

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    Nicotine alone isn't a carcinogen. It's just a stimulant, like caffeine. But hey, even though it has helped countless people quit the real killer—actual cigarettes—let's go ahead and ban it, or at least make it much more difficult and expensive to obtain.

    I was a 2+ pack-a-day smoker for all my adult life until I started vaping three years ago, and I haven't touched a cigarette since. I can attest that the benefits of switching to vaping over smoking are almost exactly the same as quitting altogether: lower blood pressure, improved cardiovascular health and lung capacity, as well as little things like regaining my full sense of taste and smell. Not to mention the shit-ton of money I no longer spend on cigarettes; I spent north of $200 a month on smokes where I live, and others pay much more than that feeding a 2 pack-a-day habit. My vaping supplies run about $30 a month.

    I really want to see these bureaucrats Mussolini'ed.
     
  4. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    The fact that E-Cig style vaporizers (ie I'll use this for any vaporizer device that uses a water based liquid, as opposed to solid plant materials, waxes, or oils) have grown so much initially surprised me. Disclaimer: Iv'e never been a tobacco user in any form, but I did do copious research into e-cig tech for a family member who has been a long time smoker and wishes to quit.

    Even at their best, e-cigs were know to be a stop-smoking aid so their harmfulness was measured against full combustion smoking of typical tobacco products. Much like most prepackaged tobacco products (and for that matter much of the food in this nation) e-cigs are made with harmful ingredients that are cheaper but have health costs. Some of these we knew from the start others we only saw later after greater use (ie the use of propylene glycol is when inhaled BOTH harmful to the respiratory tract itself and also allows particulates, chemicals etc.. everything to more easily pass through membranes, a known "feature" ). Almost all "easy to use/pre-filled" vapes have crappy hardware which contribute to health consequences and the e-liquid itself is harmful too. Now, you can mitigate this somewhat by only buying very select components (ie all glass vapor path and heating element, liquids that do not use PG at all and only use certified organic flavors below a certain concentration ) but even these will still potentially have some negative health effects especially compared against NOT vaping at all, as opposed to measuring against smoking. Mitigating the risks down to a negligible level (versus not vaping at all ) may or may not be possible and we need more good data - a problem when there is , like the tobacco industry, huge amounts of money coming in to distort the safety from various stakeholders - ecig/liquid component manufacturers themselves, chemical companies etc.

    One thing that floors me however is that commonly available e-cigs/vapes all include nicotine, including those used by teens. It is not a required component and that';s a serious issue - many of these kids introduced to vaping as harmless were NOT using the nicotine-free e-liquids and subsequently became addicted. The cynic part of me tells this is just as planned, sadly, as an alternative to combat the seriously decreasing smoking rates in the US and other nations, and to have a test case when the remaining smoking holdouts (ie Asia) convert. Selling the vapes as harmless with bubblegum flavors or whatnot is one thing, but doing so with nicotine by default is crazy! I recently checked in a local gas station for their pre-filled ecigs and refills for popular systems (ie juul) and not a single one had a zero nicotine option! Zero nicotine should be the default so to speak, with options for nicotine containing fluids requiring more action/interest for viable buyers to request.

    Vapes are not at the moment treated as "seriously" as cigarettes legally and of course those over 18 can buy what they like, so it will take a multifaceted plan to combat the vaping industry pushing harmful products out there. ecig/vape use is one thing when it comes to existing smokers who are using it as a quitting aid or substitute, but its something different when you have non-smokers starting up under the impression its "cool and harmless and non addictive".
     
  5. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    People are overthinking this,

    The reason why Vaping is bad is because it introduces a way for people to OD on Nicotine, yes it is possible, as you can OD on anything including water...……….

    Grant it other chemicals introduced into the solution may not be healthy either, like Diethylene glycol, that is a solvent, and any other derivative Ethylene glycol that essentially is Radiator coolant.

    Natural or not doesn't mean its ok to introduce it into the body. Everything is a poison that needs to be filtered, if it has an effect on the body it is a poison regardless of whether the effect is beneficial or not it is still a poison, Acetaminophen it the absolutely most overused drug to date and 100x more problematic than any opioid, because it has caused unknowing liver damage in many people and they abuse it every day. Its just as bad as the people who believe Allergies are anything more than your bodies homeostatic condition reacting to a foreign agent. These days we use it as a generalized term in such a broad meaning that includes reactions which are ill defined.

    Also people being dumb here stating Nicotine should be illegal or made illegal are brain dead, stop typing please.

    Nicotine is a natural substance found in Eggplants/Tomatoes/Potatoes and anything in the Nightshade(Tabaco) family of plants. So unless you want to ban food products and other actual things we use every day.

    This is a case of people typing and talking causing hysteria and stupidity because they lack knowledge
     
  6. STEvil

    STEvil 2[H]4U

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    I'm confused by the nicotine thing as well, I have vaped at 6 and 9 because the flavor I wanted wasnt available in 0.

    Still not addicted.
     
  7. Gorankar

    Gorankar [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Addiction is a funny thing. Human resistance to addiction is variable to a certain degree. How much it takes, in a given amount of time to lead to dependence can vary from person to person. That you did not reach your dependence tipping point does not change the well researched and documented fact that nicotine is addictive.
     
  8. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    They just started in the last year or 2 and its going slow because profits from alternative crops are usually nowhere near as good. Contrary to popular belief the farms don't always switch crops on a dime and there are complications because of soil type and weather and water supply etc. that effect what a farmer can grow. So yeah they're gonna fight it as long as they can.

    Its also pretty expensive for the farmers to switch up their biz and many of those guys are hurting bad the last few years in general. Honestly there really should've been another Farm Aid type campaign like from the 80's but for some reason it hasn't happened. You're going to see lots of small and mid size farm BK's over the next year and they're all gonna get bought by the agri-corps.

    Sure which is why I said they'll fight it too and they are indeed a strong lobby group. Just them alone could easily torpedo a law that banned nicotine in cigs/vapes or in general too.
     
  9. RadCliffeX

    RadCliffeX 2[H]4U

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    The nicotine in vape pens comes from the Rustica breed of Tobacco plants. With the highest nicotine content of the entire nightshade family it is the easiest to extract cleanly. Tomatoes and other members of the nightshade family that are not members of the tobacco branch just don't produce enough nicotine to make extraction worthwhile.

    This honestly sounds like some stupid rumor made up after some kids watched a Simpsons episode.
     
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  10. STEvil

    STEvil 2[H]4U

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    I dont disagree to that at all, but I find it hard to believe someone could vape at 1.5 or 3 or even 6 and become addicted if 9 isnt even giving me a light head or anything.

    That said, I think more research needs to be done into addictive personalities and why some people are more or less able to become addicted to things than other people.
     
  11. Kardonxt

    Kardonxt 2[H]4U

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    Frankly it's too damn easy to make your own e-juice and mods to even consider banning them when the internet exists.

    All you would be doing is shifting manufacturing to jimmy's basement rather than a company that can be regulated and who actually knows what they are doing \ cares about accidentally killing their customers.
     
  12. katanaD

    katanaD [H]ard|Gawd

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    i just hate the indoor vapors.. nothing like having to smell them and see their clouds of smoke while at work.. etc
     
  13. Cranky1970

    Cranky1970 [H]Lite

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    From day one of vaping i did not have any tobacco or cigs AT ALL. It kinda defeats the purpose no ?
     
  14. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    I think vaping is stupid, but why does what I think of it trump other people's opinions? Give it the same rules/laws as Tobacco and be done with it. Restrict ability to purchase anything for it to 18+, and require a certain distance from any public building.
    I have a bigger issue with these parents I see smoking in their car with their two kids in the back, or standing outside smoking while holding their baby.
     
  15. PaulP

    PaulP Gawd

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    Shit, that is incredibly shallow, not to mention completely wrong. Vaping crosses all age and social groups.
     
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  16. exlink

    exlink [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have friends who smoked cigarettes and have transitioned to vaping for which I'm thankful. But at the same time I have friends who never smoked, but picked up vaping which is unfortunate. So I see both sides of the spectrum.

    Until there is a significant amount of research done on vaping over many years of use I believe that it should be regulated to an extent.
     
  17. PaulP

    PaulP Gawd

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    A number of people here have advocated outlawing nicotine. One person said you can OD on it (although I have yet to find a case of someone doing that via smoking or vaping). OK, you have a right to your opinion, but then what about caffeine? It is a poison too at a high enough dose. If you are going to be consistent, then you should be calling for a bin on caffeine as well. Then what's next? Am I not allowed to have a steak because the baby can't chew it? Are we going to ban everything that isn't appropriate for children, or are we going to make good faith efforts to protect them from things they aren't ready for while ensuring that adults are free to make their own choices?
     
  18. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Same. Cigarette smoke makes my throat scratchy, but vape burns my nostrils and throws me into a coughing fit. Vaping should be just as regulated and taxed as cigarettes, in my opinion. Both smokers and vapers can get fucked.
     
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  19. Smashing Young Man

    Smashing Young Man [H]ard|Gawd

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    The busybodies and nanny-staters will continue their assault on our personal freedoms, because their goal is to have a perfectly safe and comfortable world that in no way offends their most delicate (weak) physical, mental and emotional sensibilities. Of course, such a world is impossible, but that won't stop them from trying and making everyone else miserable in the process.

    They should suffer the same aforementioned fate I wished on the bureaucrats.
     
  20. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    I really wonder if that's a US-only thing. My observation in Europe is that whilst you do get some teen vapers, it's otherwise just ordinary people of all types trying to quit smoking. Having said that, we don't have the hipster problem so bad over here unless you count France... But they've had it for centuries...
     
  21. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    Then they'll just "regulate" the ingredients. Whatever gives them more power. They know it won't work, but it will give them additional power, and that is the real intent.
     
  22. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    Unfortunately, that's who the US hipsters like to emulate, France. They think it's some center of "culture", whatever they mean by that. Perhaps they equate "culture" to daily riots and burning cars, with half the city inaccessible to all but a minority religious sect, and a third of the population of work capable people permanently unemployed.
     
  23. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

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    That would make sense, except for the fact a lot of the big vaping brands are owned by the big tobacco companies....
    Glad you chimed in to get us all "woke"
     
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  24. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's part of it, you can't let millions of dollars in tax revenue go up in smoke....
     
  25. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

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    Nicotine is a poison, why do you think plants produce it? its a natural insecticide. Nicotine was used (in it's pure form) as a poison to assassinate people during the cold war and to murder people. It's also highly addictive, why do you think people continue to smoke even after the know it's killing them? the only reason is the nicotine.

    And Ethylene Glycol is NOT what is vaping fluid. you are confusing it with Propylene Glycol.
     
  26. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Hahah, made me laugh at least today, so thanks for that... :)
     
  27. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Hrm... not here though... didn't think in the US it was the case either, given how opposed the tobacco industry has been to vaping, trying to get it regulated etc.
     
  28. Kardonxt

    Kardonxt 2[H]4U

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    "Altria, the leading U.S. cigarette manufacturer, announced Thursday it will make a $12.8 billion investment in e-cigarette maker Juul – giving it a 35 percent stake in what had been perhaps its most worrisome competitor."

    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678915071/altria-buys-35-percent-stake-in-e-cigarette-maker-juul
     
  29. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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  30. Kardonxt

    Kardonxt 2[H]4U

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    Yeah I just heard it on the radio a few days ago.

    I take it as a major indicator that even big tobacco doesn't expect to have much more luck lobbying to get e-cigs locked down. I think the FDA is just blowing smoke for lack of a better phrase. If big tobacco thought they were really on the edge of pulling the e-cig plug they have enough power to give the final nudge that makes it happen. Instead they spent a ton of money investing in the future of e-cigs.
     
  31. Lizard Testes

    Lizard Testes Gawd

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    Lol at all the vapers in here citing anecdotal "evidence" as proof that vaping is healthy.
     
  32. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, tobacco was pushed as being good for you at one time, the old cigarette ads are hilarious in a macabre sort of way.

    No one knows the long term effects of breathing large quantities of propylene glycol or the other crap in e-cigs and vape machines. Should be interesting to see what happens after 20 years.
     
  33. capt_cope

    capt_cope Gawd

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    While it's true that no one has done any long-term studies on e cigarette liquid as a whole, you're mis-informed if you think that no studies have been done on the inhalation of propylene glycol vapor. Here's a link to one of those long term studies that people keep claiming have never happened:
    TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLENE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION
    And for those of you who don't want to click the link - here's the last paragraph of the abstract:
    Propylene glycol vapor has been used as a delivery method for a wide variety of inhaled medications for the past 50 years. Even if there weren't any formal studies, I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about the nasty side-effects and seen all the lawsuits from the people who have had to use inhalers.


    Don't get me wrong - I don't think inhaling the vaporized flavoring is healthy at all. I'm sure once studies have been done they'll find the additives in the liquid are harmful, but I highly doubt it's worse than smoking an actual cigarette and I'm willing to bet my lungs that it's at least a little less damaging. Even if it is just as bad as smoking a cigarette, it's got an added bonus: you can even get liquid with different nicotine concentrations. When I started using an e cigarette to quit smoking I was using 18 mg/ml "strength" liquid, but lately I've been working on dropping down from 6 mg/ml to 3 mg/ml - and after I get to 3 mg/ml I'll work on quitting the stupid vaping altogether (which shouldn't be impossible, I look like a jackass doing it.)
     
  34. Exavior

    Exavior [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Who is pushing outlaw nicotine? Did I miss some post here about that? There seems to be a number of people who don't have the ability to read and understand what they read. And that might be your problem here. There are some of us that are fine with vaping being given the same or similar regulations as chew and cigarettes. If some new medicine was released to the public I would expect it to go through the same testing as all other medicine. If some new restaurant opened I would expect them to have to follow the same health codes as everyone else.

    Again since it seems to be hard for people to understand, they are not wanting to outlaw ecigs and vaping. they are wanting to make it follow FDA regulations as right now it does not. Today vaping does not have to be FDA approved or even be regulated in the slightest as no rules were in place to do so when they were created. The FDA just wants to treat them as either a medical device or tobacco device or something period and have some type of regulations on their sale and use. Regulating and outlawing are two different things. If we use your caffeine example. The FDA regulates that and has put a limit of the amount of caffeine that can be in food / drinks. So caffeine has already been regulated.
     
  35. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    My only comment on the issue is you can't view vaping and smoking in a vacuum from each other. If vaping is displacing smoking, that's step in the right direction.
     
  36. sleepeeg3

    sleepeeg3 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nicotine causes cancer. That is all you need to know.

    Why not smoke caffeine? Same effect and it doesn't kill you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  37. nightfly

    nightfly 2[H]4U

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    It's not the nicotine. Please hear me out, because this is important; we still have far too many people smoking, and not being able to stop, because they don't understand what's going on, and no one is telling them. If you've ever taken psychology 101, you'll recognise what I write here.

    Smoking is a social behavior, and, it is also used to calm the mind, by blocking other thoughts that you don't want to think about.
    .
    It often starts with kids who want to look cool, and as if they are old enough to smoke. Let's face it, the very first time you take a nice long inhalation of smoke, your body coughs and you have to know that it's not a good idea. Same thing with that first drink of black coffee or hard liqour; they generally taste awful. But we like to be seen as adults, and society tells us that adults don't like 'soft drinks' so we show off that we like stuff that tastes like turpentine. In the same way, we work hard to show everyone that we can handle inhaling disgusting tasting and smelling fumes, proving our toughness and that we're 'mature'. Try what ar called 'guinea ropes', italian small cigars that stink to high heaven (I think they were Denobly brand)
    .
    I noticed long ago, back when we could all smoke in any public place, that whenever there was a lull in the conversation, the smokers would light up. The non smokers? Looked uncomfortable, because now the onus was on THEM to maintain the conversation. Point, smokers.

    Then I noticed that a lot of patients that quit smoking, started to gain weight. Many started chewing gum, sucking on hard candy. And EATING and drinking more.

    When they started to make it unacceptable to smoke indoors, and started creating those outdoor 'smoking zones', the smokers all got extra breaks from work, while the non smokers were stuck covering for them. Point, smokers.

    So I told my boss that whenever the smokers were going to take a cigarette break, I was going with them. He was annoyed, but pretty much had no argument against it.
    When we all went outside, there were always a few lone smokers. I observed them. They made a ritual out of their smoking. Take the cigarette out, put it in their mouth, light up, and take a long, slow drag; hold the smoke in for a bit, then slowly blow the smoke out, while looking at, well, nothing. They repeated this until they were finished or until the break time was over.
    When I ask smokers why they smoke, they almost unanimously say that it relaxes them. Now, why would inhaling a stimulant relax someone? And what was it about chewing gum, sucking on hard candy or lollipops, or replacing smoking with eating or drinking, that replaced the nicotine?

    Because IT WASN'T THE NICOTINE.

    For the psychology folks who know, remember all the basic needs? What's really #1?
    BREATHING. It's the highest priority there is. If you can't breath, nothing else matters. What's next? Safety; if you're being chased by a angry crowd, you're not worried about where your next meal is coming from. Next? Water, then food. What gets used as a replacement for smoking? All the above, usually in that order. You can add other needs, but it's those that are the most important. When any of those things are deemed as needed, all you can think about, is THOSE THINGS.

    So, where am I going with this? Simple. We evolved physically so that each of those needs elicits a thought process that makes that need a priority, and until that priority is satisfied, nothing else matters. So we get to smoking. Why is that a priority?

    Because it includes the highest priority thought process that our conscious minds can use: BREATHING. Watch a smoker. It's the very process of breathing, which they are using, in order to suppress other uncomfortable thoughts that they want to ignore. Do it long enough, and you can even forget what was bothering you in the first place, because you pushed it out of your thoughts. Yoga works the same way. The ritual of the cigarette/cigar/joint are just accessories and blowing smoke is just a part of it all.
    And this is why drinking & eating, which includes chewing gum, sucking on candy, lollipops, eating other foods, all do the same thing that smoking did for you after you quit smoking. It stops you from focusing on things that bother you, at least temporarily.

    I also noticed that children who have been abused have close to a 100% incidence of eating disorders. Why? Because they don't yet have access to smoking, alcohol or drugs. So they use eating and focusing on it OR focusing on NOT doing it, to stop what they don't want to think about. Body telling them that they're hungry and want to eat? Simple; don't eat, and be forced to focus on the hunger thoughts. And it never goes away; we see adults that use all of these psychological 'defense mechanisms' to push the disturbing thoughts and memories right out of their minds, and it works, for a little while, then they have to repeat their method of choice to do it again when they get irritated from whatever is bothering them.

    And the smokers go for another cigarette.

    Consider all this, next time you get the urge to light up. And try to figure out what it is, that you are doing it for. Because Caffeine is just as good a stimulant as nicotine, so try having a cup of coffee or espresso instead for a while and see if that seems to do the trick. Ever notice all those people who need a very frequent intake of coffee? Same reason.

    Know, too, that knowing why your mind is doing all this, doesn't stop you from feeling the desire to smoke/eat/drink. But at least you know why you have the urge. Modern mental health professionals give us the idea that once we've figured out what our problem is, we will get 'cured' of it. Nope. All that happens, is that you know what's going on in your head, and hopefully, are able to deal with it better.

    As far as making something illegal to stop people from having access to it, see how well prohibition worked, and how well our now 46 year old war on drugs is working to keep people from getting access to drugs. Drugs are more available now than ever. It's accomplished NOTHING other than to fill our prisons, perpetuate the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industy's profit margins, and waste billions of dollars every year.
     
  38. Lizard Testes

    Lizard Testes Gawd

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    lol
     
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  39. PaulP

    PaulP Gawd

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    It took me 10 seconds to find this:
    There are more just on this thread with the same sentiment. So you are the one with the reading disability, not me.

    While it is true that caffeine is regulated by the FDA, when used as food it is covered under 21 Code of Federal Regulations section 182.1180: "fit for human consumption and is generally recognized as safe." Many thousands of food additives fall under this type of regulation; it is pretty generic and not very strict. Other than limiting the percentage of caffeine that can be added to a product, there are no restrictions on the sale and use of food products that contain it. This despite the fact that it is a powerful, addictive stimulant, and probably the most widely abused. Nicotine, on the other hand, has historically been covered by tobacco regulations (since the main consumption method up until recently was smoking), which is much stricter. As usual, the government is behind the times on this issue, but is in the process of updating the regulations to separate out nicotine from tobacco smoking. Most reasonable people agree this should happen. The fight is over whether nicotine by itself (in vapes) should be regulated at the same level as tobacco (which has many other substances in it, of course), or less strict.
     
  40. PaulP

    PaulP Gawd

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    Bullshit. According to reputable sources, such as the International Agency for Research on Cancer, nicotine does not cause cancer. The strongest statement I could find was "there is insufficient evidence to classify nicotine by itself" as carcinogenic or even potentially carcinogenic.
     
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