Exposing my ignorance: I don't know what's going on with my RAM. (Renamed)

DarkSideA8

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Edit 3: after much help I'm testing out 2933 as my settings - 3200 did not work

Edit #2: damnit - I thought I had this resolved. But no sooner had I enabled xmp in bios than I started getting black screen

Sigh

I'm currently running Ryzen 7 2700x, with 16GB of memory running at 2133 and a 3070, and seeing less than optimal frames (50s-80s at 1080p).

I know that RAM speeds offer very minimal performance improvements within the same amount of gigs & CPU/Mobo... but I have read occasional opinions that Ryzen does not like 2133 - which I think I have installed.

From what I can tell from the Mobo support page is that it and the CPU (Pinnacle Ridge) top out at 16gb 3200 https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/X470-AORUS-ULTRA-GAMING-rev-10/support#support-doc (Presumes I am reading this correctly).



Anyway - I'm no RAM expert. Would appreciate advice on
  • whether its worth it / waste of time to replace my current 2133 with 3200mhz modules, and
  • whether SS or DS matter (and how?), and
  • whether it matters if I buy a 32 gig 2 stim pack of DS memory or two 8 gb SS sticks.




EDIT: Okay - I may be an idiot: I don't really know what speed RAM is installed. I'm getting the info from software. PerfMon's Memory page is where I see it running at 2133... but CPU-Z shows uncore freq at 1066... so I'm not sure what I'm looking at.






*Main thing I am waiting on is the new 32" 4k fast IPS monitors due this year (and saving my shekels for that). Plan is to upgrade to AMD 5xxxx after I buy the new monitor. I don't really want to buy an interim CPU/Mobo, until I can get one of those. But I'm seeing some areas that need improvement, and given how Tarkov leans on CPU/RAM... maybe this is an area?
 
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kirbyrj

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2133 is DDR (double data rate) of 1066 so your RAM is running at 2133 which isn't surprising as it is the "stock" speed of a lot of DDR4 modules.

Open your computer case and look at the modules to see what they should be running at. There are usually stickers on them.

Boot into the bios and enable XMP under the "M.I.T." settings. It should enable your memory to run at the rated speeds from the stickers.

A Zen+ CPU should be good for up to 3200Mhz or so.
 

DarkSideA8

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Whelp - I'm an idjit.

Never dawned on me in this day of PnP that you would have to manually enable the speed you paid for.

Yep 3200s installed. Probably a year or so ago. 8/
 
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DarkSideA8

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Okay - well, apparently my system doesn't want to run faster than 2133.

I've tried the xmp profile on auto three times and I get a black screen or a BSOD every time. Revert to xmp disabled and it works.

Damnit - - I really hate 2021s supply BS.

Guess I have to keep limping along.




FWIW - I tried to review the link above to check the memory timings on the corsair RAM - but it is giving me gateway errors (multiple devices, so it's on their end)
 

travm

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Okay - well, apparently my system doesn't want to run faster than 2133.

I've tried the xmp profile on auto three times and I get a black screen or a BSOD every time. Revert to xmp disabled and it works.

Damnit - - I really hate 2021s supply BS.

Guess I have to keep limping along.




FWIW - I tried to review the link above to check the memory timings on the corsair RAM - but it is giving me gateway errors (multiple devices, so it's on their end)
What is your Ram Voltage? Sometimes you have to manually apply the required voltage for the overclock. What is your ram kit? Sometimes specific mobo/ram/cpu combo's have their own voltage sweet spot too... Ryzen and Ryzen+ were both fairly picky about ram, and yes 3200mhz will improve your 1080p fps a small but noticeable amount.
 

SvenBent

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Never dawned on me in this day of PnP that you would have to manually enable the speed you paid for.

Yep 3200s installed. Probably a year or so ago. 8/

That is pretty normal and have been so for decades. Especial when you run with speeds outside of manufacturer certified range
From moving jumpers to settings bios settings.

Don't blame the computer for your lack of knowledge on how to build one. This has nothing to do with PnP. Again dont use words if you don't know what they stand for.
The self justifying attitude only holds you back from learning from your mistakes.

Did you have to set I/O Addressee, IRQ's or DMA dresses for all your add'in boards? If not then PnP worked


Okay - well, apparently my system doesn't want to run faster than 2133.

I've tried the xmp profile on auto three times and I get a black screen or a BSOD every time. Revert to xmp disabled and it works.

Try not to overclock and start with testing you computer in manufacture certified speeds.
For a Ryzen 2700 that is a max of 2933 on the MC

if that works you might have to up the voltage to the MC for stable at over clocked 3200mhz speed
 
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travm

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Try not to overclock and start with testing you computer in manufacture certified speeds.
This,
Reset bios, and start with the ram only.
He is also kind of right. Buying 3200mhz ram isnt what you think it is. You are buying 2133 mhz ram, that has been manufactured and tested (on a different set-up than yours) to work at a specific overclock speed. It is no different than buying a CPU and then overclocking it, except this would be more like buying a pre-tested OC cpu. But dont be fooled, you are overclocking your ram when you run it at the "rated" speeds.
 

kirbyrj

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Update the bios for your motherboard to the most recent one available.

Additionally, you could try setting the XMP and then manually downclocking the memory to 2933Mhz from 3200. That should work.
 
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travm

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Update the bios for your motherboard to the most recent one available.

Additionally, you could try setting the XMP and then manually downclocking the memory to 2933Mhz from 3200. That should work.
That was pretty common in the early Ryzen Chips/Mobos. I lucked out and both my systems just ran at 3200mhz after enabling XMP, but that isnt typical.
 

DarkSideA8

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While I linked to it above - Gigabyte is having issues; despite this the 'supported RAM' list shows the Corsair modules I have at PC 3200 for the CPU installed. As mentioned in the title of the thread: I'm okay exposing an area of ignorance and appreciate the suggestions!

SvenBent this comp has been rock solid since I built it way back when. Had I realized that enabling XMP was overclocking I'd have approached the whole thing with a different mindset. Thanks to travm for the explanation: I legit had no idea that "Buying 3200mhz ram isnt what you think it is. You are buying 2133 mhz ram, that has been manufactured and tested (on a different set-up than yours) to work at a specific overclock speed. It is no different than buying a CPU and then overclocking it, except this would be more like buying a pre-tested OC cpu. But dont be fooled, you are overclocking your ram when you run it at the "rated" speeds."

kirbyrj - I'm absolutely running the bios that came with the mobo. I'll look into that before proceeding.

Instead I just thought the system had not recognized the faster RAM and needed to be prompted.

Anyway - to the others not named: thanks for the feedback! I now have a frame of reference for attempting this again!
 

mda

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What I'd do is --
1. Update BIOS to something more recent, I'm running F60 with my 2700X for example, but as low as F50 should be fine for the 2000 series CPUs
2. Set XMP called profile 1/2 i think (to set the voltage and initial timings among other things), AND THEN manually lower the RAM speed from 3200 to 2933. Slowly bump it up until it becomes unstable.

Also, that Gigabyte X470 Ultra Gaming board has difficulty in clocking RAM above 2933-3000. I know since my 2700X is running in one right now, and the board didn't play well with RAM with a 2600X and a 3600 either.

The same RAM would run well with the tested CPUs in my other boards.

I am going to guess that 2933 should work for you, though.
 
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SvenBent

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While I linked to it above - Gigabyte is having issues; despite this the 'supported RAM' list shows the Corsair modules I have at PC 3200 for the CPU installed. As mentioned in the title of the thread: I'm okay exposing an area of ignorance and appreciate the suggestions!

SvenBent this comp has been rock solid since I built it way back when. Had I realized that enabling XMP was overclocking I'd have approached the whole thing with a different mindset. Thanks to travm for the explanation: I legit had no idea that "Buying 3200mhz ram isnt what you think it is. You are buying 2133 mhz ram, that has been manufactured and tested (on a different set-up than yours) to work at a specific overclock speed. It is no different than buying a CPU and then overclocking it, except this would be more like buying a pre-tested OC cpu. But dont be fooled, you are overclocking your ram when you run it at the "rated" speeds."

Just for the record do not mix my sayings with anybody else.
I am not saying that buying 3200mhz ram is not 3200mhz all sense it is. Saying its just overclocked 2133mhz ram is just not understanding difference between JEDEC SPD and XMS. and then people make up "facts"
If we wanna be anal PC32000 is 1600mhz ram or 3200MT/s but people tend not to follow correct technical words, when a incorrect sayig gets popular in the none-technical world ( like saying they bought a cpu with threads... *cringe*)
To clarify: What I am saying is that your CPU is only rated for 2933 mhz on the MC. If you set up you memory to run 3200mhz that 2933 rated MC has to run at 3200mhz which is overclocking.

So I am not saying you are overclocking your RAM but that you are overclocking your MC which is in your CPU.

This has NOTHING to do with you not getting what you bought. But the fact on how computer parts works and connect.

Gigabyte Cannot give you a guarantee on how you CPU will overclock. Just that their board will worked with the ram.
 

criccio

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I don't think the 2700x likes 3200Mhz RAM. The fastest I could get mine to run at was 3000MHz.
 

DarkSideA8

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Just for the record do not mix my sayings with anybody else.
I am not saying that buying 3200mhz ram is not 3200mhz all sense it is. Saying its just overclocked 2133mhz ram is just not understanding difference between JEDEC SPD and XMS. and then people make up "facts"
If we wanna be anal PC32000 is 1600mhz ram or 3200MT/s but people tend not to follow correct technical words, when a incorrect sayig gets popular in the none-technical world ( like saying they bought a cpu with threads... *cringe*)
To clarify: What I am saying is that your CPU is only rated for 2933 mhz on the MC. If you set up you memory to run 3200mhz that 2933 rated MC has to run at 3200mhz which is overclocking.

So I am not saying you are overclocking your RAM but that you are overclocking your MC which is in your CPU.

This has NOTHING to do with you not getting what you bought. But the fact on how computer parts works and connect.

Gigabyte Cannot give you a guarantee on how you CPU will overclock. Just that their board will worked with the ram.
...

I'm confused as to why you keep saying 'how the CPU will overclock'.

I'm trying to speed up the RAM, and not messing about with the CPU - as far as I know. Are you saying that by enabling XMP Profile 1 and trying to get the PC 3200 modules to run faster than 2133, that I'm also overclocking the CPU?

Seems there's more to this than I thought!


...
@ all:

Okay - so here's what I'm thinking (please critique):

The Mobo mem support page shows PC 3200 as supported, and gives the timings. I thought that meant I could simply buy a supported module from the list and it would work 'as advertised.' (I presumed that Gigabyte's listing equaled them incorporating instructions into the BIOS that auto-detected and just worked)... Now I know there's more to it.

I had planned on updating the BIOS, per suggestions above, and then trying to re-enable the PC 3200 using Profile 1 as before, but plugging in the suggested timings now that Gigabyte's 'supported modules' page is working again. (from what I remember, the auto-generated timings were different that what I see on the support page) Having read SvenBent 's post, it seems like this is doomed from the start.

So, I need to refer to the MC of the CPU, and not simply rely upon the mobo page. the Ryzen 7 2700x is limited to 2933mhz. Which means I need to figure out how to 'UC' ( :D ) the PC 3200 modules to 2933mhz, correct? I do see timings for another Corsair module listed under 2933 on the Mobo page - should I start with those timings?

--- again, thanks to all for suggestions and patience as I learn this stuff!
 

DarkSideA8

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I don't think the 2700x likes 3200Mhz RAM. The fastest I could get mine to run at was 3000MHz.
Oddly, I remember buying the 3200 because I read somewhere that it was the best for my CPU. Seems like you were correct
 

Master_shake_

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Update the bios for your motherboard to the most recent one available.

Additionally, you could try setting the XMP and then manually downclocking the memory to 2933Mhz from 3200. That should work.
To add to this if you update your bios make sure it doesn't remove support for the cpu you are using.

I remember something about bios size being an issue on some boards.
 

kirbyrj

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To add to this if you update your bios make sure it doesn't remove support for the cpu you are using.

I remember something about bios size being an issue on some boards.

That is true, although, usually what they were talking about was the much less common Athlon A series and X4 series CPUs. A mainstream CPU like the 2700x will be fine.
 

kirbyrj

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----- Stupid Bios question: Do I need to do sequential updates - or just grab the selected few listed in the warnings before the latest?

( The warnings listed in earlier versions have me nervous: see the part about F40, etc.)

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/X470-AORUS-ULTRA-GAMING-rev-10/support#support-dl-bios

I would update to the latest chipset drivers from AMD.

Then run that EC FW Update Tool (B19.0517.1 or later version) from the Utilities

Then flash F31

Then flash F40

Then the latest F61a
 

Starfalcon

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Bios upgrades can also add more support for memory kits and allow them to work better with the board also. That may help you with getting your kit to run its XMP profile, but like everything else your millage varies depending on how your memory controller on the cpu can handle the speed.
 

SvenBent

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I'm trying to speed up the RAM, and not messing about with the CPU - as far as I know. Are you saying that by enabling XMP Profile 1 and trying to get the PC 3200 modules to run faster than 2133, that I'm also overclocking the CPU?

Seems there's more to this than I thought!

I sorry to say this, but its because you don't know how computer components works.

Some device has to talk with the ram at the 3200 speed. The 3200 speed is the frequence of communication from the cell's to whatever deviced is getting the data from RAM
That device is called the Memory Controller (MC), just like you have the storage controller that communications with you storage devices.
This MC used to be sitting on the motherboard north bridge which used to be the bigger part of the chipsets ( split in north and a south bridge)
However since the Athlon 64 and the Core I7 introduction this MC got moved from the chipset and into the CPU. This was to reduce latency but also to increase speed of the MC as it is now built on a higher quality, than just the remaining pats of the chipset.

So this device you are forcing to run at 3200 as well as the RAM are in the CPU. and on your CPU it is only rated for 2933 speed
https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-7-2700
System Memory
System Memory Specification: Up to 2933MHz
System Memory Type: DDR4
Memory Channels: 2

The fact that the MC is in your CPU is the reason why we have memory specs on CPU's. Before the MC was integrated, you would not see such a thing, as the CPU had nothing to do with RAM back then.


In short: Your CPU is not rated to talk faster than 2933 to you memory. Trying to make it do so is overclocking of the CPU.


I hope this could clear it out.
I am not saying that is the issue in the current situation. I'm just correction a misconception on how things works.
Knowing this you should know that sometimes you need to give the CPU a bit more voltage (prefferable to the MC alone if you can) to be able to run with memory speed higher than what the MC is rated for

More reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_controller


--- edit ---
I apologize if I'm coming of insulting.
 
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DooKey

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The 2XXX series of CPU's weren't the most friendly with fast RAM. You might or might not be able to run at 3200 speeds. Could just be a bad combo of RAM and picky CPU.
 

pendragon1

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my 3400 RAM is running just fine on my 2600x....

In short: Your CPU is not rated to talk faster than 2933 to you memory. Trying to make it do so is overclocking of the CPU.
never, ever, heard that one before...
 

DarkSideA8

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I apologize if I'm coming of insulting.
Given the quality of your answers, no insult taken! Thanks for the responses

My framework:
- The only stupid question is the one not asked
- A wise man knows how little he knows; I'm never ashamed to admit ignorance and accept advice
 

kirbyrj

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The 2XXX series of CPU's weren't the most friendly with fast RAM. You might or might not be able to run at 3200 speeds. Could just be a bad combo of RAM and picky CPU.

It really depends on the quality of the IMC. I had a 2700x which worked fine beyond 3200Mhz. I had a 2600 that wouldn't do more than 2933Mhz. They were definitely more friendly than OG Zen, but not anywhere near as friendly as Zen 2 and Zen 3.
 

DarkSideA8

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Okay - Update and more questions:

I followed the instructions and have successfully updated my BIOS to F61a. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see how the new BIOS would handle the XMP Profile 1 (pushing the RAM to 3200). It booted and ran flawlessly for 10 minutes, then BSOD.

mmmkay; not a working profile for my system.

Now I'm trying to get the system to run at 2933, having figured out how to twiddle with the manual settings

Question about voltages: the default is 1.2, and the Profile 1 OC ran it up to 1.35. I selected 1.3 just for something more than default and less than what was causing problems - not out of any knowledge or suggestions to the contrary.

Is there a better way to decide what voltage to assign?

Timings - I just went with the timings that were listed on the Gigabyte page. I assume that was okay - but again, I'm delving into territory I don't know a whole lot about.
 
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pendragon1

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Okay - Update and more questions:

I followed the instructions and have successfully updated my BIOS to F61a. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see how the new BIOS would handle the XMP Profile 1 (pushing the RAM to 3200). It booted and ran flawlessly for 10 minutes, then BSOD.

mmmkay; not a working profile for my system.

Now I'm trying to get the system to run at 2933, having figured out how to twiddle with the manual settings

Question about voltages: the default is 1.2, and the Profile 1 OC ran it up to 1.35. I selected 1.3 just for something more than default and less than what was causing problems - not out of any knowledge or suggestions to the contrary.

Is there a better way to decide what voltage to assign?

Timings - I just went with the timings that were listed on the Gigabyte page. I assume that was okay - but again, I'm delving into territory I don't know a whole lot about.
yes, 1.2v is default voltage for default speed 2133. anything higher should switch to the 1.35v xmp sets. if you got it booting but still had a crash, up the ram voltage to 1.4 and try again. thats all it took for mine in sig...
 

DarkSideA8

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So it doesn't work if you run the profile 1 OC?
No - I thought I would see if the bios update helped, and it did... for 10 minutes before the crash, and that was with just two windows open.


I'm running on 40 minutes right now at 2933 with 1.30v, and have Tarkov open. Ran one raid and it 'seemed' like an improvement. Did not notice any tearing.

So whether this remains stable is what I'm looking for.

pendragon1 -- So you think the problem might be undervolting at 3200 with the Profile 1's 1.35?

Side Q: if the MC is rated for 2933... do I need to do anything other than tweak ram at 3200 (presuming Pen is correct) to prevent bottlenecking?
 

pendragon1

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No - I thought I would see if the bios update helped, and it did... for 10 minutes before the crash, and that was with just two windows open.


I'm running on 40 minutes right now at 2933 with 1.30v, and have Tarkov open. Ran one raid and it 'seemed' like an improvement. Did not notice any tearing.

So whether this remains stable is what I'm looking for.

pendragon1 -- So you think the problem might be undervolting at 3200 with the Profile 1's 1.35?

Side Q: if the MC is rated for 2933... do I need to do anything other than tweak ram at 3200 (presuming Pen is correct) to prevent bottlenecking?
ok, at least youre up to 2933.
yeah it could be.
there is one other voltage that you might need to adjust, VSOC i think, gonna check...
edit: yup vsoc or soc and its default is usually 1.05, i think, up it to 1.1v if there are still stability issues after 1.4v on the ram.
 

DarkSideA8

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LOL -- I'm so focused on trying to test performance that I'm terribad in-game (Tarkov). Big news is that I'm in game

Don't have a definite about FPS improvement... maybe 5-8 frames better on average; but the game seems smoother. Less tearing. That's purely subjective and an early opinion, but at least its something.

Never really ran into a game that was so dependent on CPU / RAM. Usually, GPU cures all ills.
 

kirbyrj

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I would definitely give 3200Mhz at at least 1.35V a try before you stop testing along with the slight bump in SOC voltage. 1.35V is pretty much the defacto "stock" voltage for any DDR4 memory above 2400Mhz. Like I said before, it might just be a memory controller issue. It's not uncommon for that to happen with Zen1/Zen+. If you ever upgrade to a 3XXX/5XXX CPU, you should be able to run at full 3200Mhz without issue. Plus, now your bios is ready to go right up through 5XXX CPUs.
 

DarkSideA8

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now your bios is ready to go right up through 5XXX CPUs
that is a good thing, isn't it.

Guess the only thing I'd be giving up is PCIe4... and not much is bottlenecking PCIe3 at this point.

I just checked: Vermeer is supported, and the 5800x is purchaseable... but they don't show mem support for vermeer yet, only Matisse... and maxes out at 16 GB - which I don't understand b/c other documentation says it can take up to 64.

I guess I don't know how to read the 'supported' page 8/
 
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kirbyrj

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I'm sure you could take up to at least 16 GB sticks and probably 32 GB. The memory support page is probably lacking at this point because it's an older board and they don't go back and retest a lot.

At 1080p a 5800x would definitely help the frame rates in just about any game. I don't necessarily know if it is worth the extra money or not in your case though. But at least it's an option.
 
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