EVs with 100-Mile Range May Be All You Need, Some Automakers Say

Uh, is that pic in the OP post a profile of an upcoming Prius, or is that the never-before-seen Pontiac Aztek II ev?
 
DWolvin said:
Yea, but you do know that you are a serious outlier, right? Most people drive far, far less. Hell, my 55 mile round trip puts me in the upper 25%, and it's one of the shorter commutes I have ever had.
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I can't sacrifice my career and well-being by being dictated a lower driving range because the masses "might" be able to get away with it.

Not that I buy that BS...because, with such a limited range, there would be no rental vehicle market or business fleets, both of which rely on providing vehicles that have long driving ranges. The rental market would die off, and businesses would have to double-quadruple (or more) their vehicle fleets, plus incur the costs of being able to charge them all...that cost gets passed on to we consumers. No thank you. The article ignores the bigger picture.
 
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DejaWiz said:
I can't sacrifice my career and well-being by being dictated a lower driving range because the masses can get away with it.
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Not saying you should, just saying the article is not aimed in your general direction at all.
 
nutzo said:
I live in Sunny California, so the biggest problem is pot holes and flats.
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There you go, I live in Canada, so the concept of a ghetto where I'd be in extreme danger due to breakdown is a fairly foreign concept I'm mostly familiar with from American TV.
 
nutzo said:
I like the concept of a plugin Hybrid, but can't justify the higher cost or the loss of trunk/interior space and lack of space for a spare tire.

Even the extra $2,700 I paid for a Camry hybrid will take me years to break even. Depending on the price of gas, I figured 5-10 years.

As for pure electrics, way to many compromises in size, storage, spare tire, charging time, etc.
A 100 mile range would easily cover 85% of my driving, what about the other 15%?
Owning an addition car would cost too much.
While you could rent a car for a planned long trip (still a hassle and an expense), what happens when you have an emergency and suddenly need to drive somewhere?

Only way I could see owning a current electric car is if I was retired.
I could see having a cheap electric to share with the wife (would be better than a golf cart) for short trips to the store, and an ICE for longer trips.
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For me, that $2700 was paid off fairly quick. But I got a Nissan Altima Hybrid, right before they stopped making them. Being taller than the average person, I was surprised I could even get that, as the other hybrids were way too small, and even with regular cars, I was stuck choosing between which 15 mpg car/truck I would choose (Mini Cooper excluded, which, btw, if you're over 6'6" and under 7', is still fairly comfortable). Strangely, their hybrid didn't have a sunroof, yet all their regular Altimas did, which only helped the situation.

100 miles is still too short for me. Each way to work is 55 miles at the moment. That's without any extra stops. Or the guaranteed traffic that I'll hit. I could move closer, but then I'd have to lower my quality of life significantly as it gets insanely more expensive the closer you get to NYC unless you choose to live in terrible neighborhoods.
 
Has anyone here looked at the Chevy Bolt? Estimated 238 mile range and $30k after federal rebate.
 
pu3IcCu.jpg
 
ruffbytes said:
I think range anxiety *does* exist, but it is largely unfounded. I can count on one hand the number of days a year I drive more than 100 miles. I could simply rent a car those days.
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Renting a car isn't just inconvenient, its a hassle and always opens you up to potential abuse, as frequent business travelers know all too well. Just the other week I was nearly conned by my carelessness for one of the most common scams. It was raining but we did a walkaround under an umbrella, which is already hard to see damage, but I noticed a scratch on the rear bumper. He said its small (it was) and they only look for major damage. I said well what if I get a different guy who disagrees? He said not to worry about it the form is filled out and doesn't allow adjustments. So I grabbed my phone and recorded a video showing the damage with us both there under the umbrella and that we aren't reporting it on the thing I'm signing but its there at time of pickup. Sure enough, at dropoff the guy comes back and says I hit something on the rear bumper and were insistent I was charged until I showed the video. They probably do that with every customer and never fix the damage. :rolleyes: No thanks.

Buy a hybrid, have a useful and efficient car that you can forget to charge once and not be stranded.
 
I'm really happy with my Volt. It has a 32 mile electric only range and maybe once a week we'll have a day of errands that puts the car into hybrid mode. That means most days all I drive on is pure electric.

But I love the hybrid feature and really wouldn't want to live without it. I like being able to drive 3+ hours up to my in-law's place without having to fill the car with gas or worry about finding a place to charge along the way. The gas tank is only 7 gallons (my major complaint), but we so seldom have to fill it that I just shrug it off.

Overall it's a brilliant vehicle and I think will be the winning concept in the future, especially for SUVs. Electric only cars will get a lot cheaper and is where we'll see the really inexpensive market. That's my prediction.
 
d_stilgar said:
Electric only cars will get a lot cheaper and is where we'll see the really inexpensive market. That's my prediction.
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And they are getting cheaper pretty rapidly, which is another thing to factor in cost of ownership. Whereas diesels have above average resale value, electric cars have far below. That depreciation can really kick you in the ass on total cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle.
 
westrock2000 said:
pu3IcCu.jpg
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LOL, looks like DFW is in the uninhabital zone. Yeah 7 million people are just faking it.

A better representation of the "habital" zone is that it will likely be underwater in less than 100 years. Bye bye Houston...
 
100MPc might work if it fast charges. Without that, I can see issues where you might get to a point where you'd be afraid to go out because you only have 20 miles left and you don't want to risk being stranded. A.k.a. range anxiety.
 
does anyone make a practical AWD EV that can handle a 720 mile one way trip? No? then I have no use for one.... Where I live and the inclement weather we get each winter has dictated that I have AWD available because I need something that can get me where I need to go with little issues while still being reasonably fuel efficient...
 
"100 mile range is all you need" sounds exactly like Verizon's "5GB is all you need" bullshit. Fuck off with that bullshit. If you simply don't want to do it because you don't care that's fine; I'll just go to another automaker that does. No harm, no foul. Just don't give me that "this is all you'll need" bullshit.

Either way, as we currently stand, hybrid is the way to go.
 
Yup, the easy way to calculate what real range anxiety is, is to think about what gets you nervous in your non-electric car.

Most cars are designed that when the fuel light is on and it shows empty, you have about a 40 mile range left until the car stops moving.

Now think about how many gas stations are in your area, and how many miles apart they are, and how long it would take you to refuel.

If there are gas stations every 10 miles, it takes five minutes to refuel, and yet a 40 mile range makes you nervous... think about how that is going to feel everyday when 40 miles is half of your range after two years (since your battery is surely going to lose a little bit of capacity, especially if you live in a hotter climate). And how annoying will it be when you're sleeping over at your girlfriend's house, and after sex remember that you have to ask her where a beefy long extension cord is so you can drag that down her driveway into your car so its full in the morning... cmon. Even when at home, until we have nice affordable and efficient wireless chargers, that's annoying too having to plug in the car every time you get home which occasionally you may forget to do when you're bringing the groceries in and have a bunch of ice cream in the trunk.

I know my Samsung watch sometimes dies because I forget to charge it, and that's OK, but being an hour late for work is not.

Then again, personally, I don't even really feel the need for a hybrid for myself, as regular cars are becoming very efficient. The new Chevy Cruze diesel was something I was eyeing, that gets a nice 52mpg... 700 mile range. *drool*

At 15K miles a year, that's a fuel expenditure of $721.15 at $2.50 a gallon for diesel. Just having an electrician install a quality EV charger in your garage is pricey (can be about $1200 all in), and since there is no true standard yet and it keeps changing, chances are that in five years you may want to change your charger to something else (if you haven't moved and need to call an electrician again). Then again, right now I'm having a blast in my little turbo Fiat, which averages 32mpg in the city, which isn't that expensive either... I'll own an EV some day as the tech is always improving, sure, but not today.
 
My problem with 100 mile figure is that you can go anywhere within a 100 mile radius if your destination (or on the journey) is guarenteed to have a charging station, ideally you would want one for your destination so you can charge it while you park and not add the time to your journey. If charging station cannot be guarenteed, the range of that car sudden drops down to 50 miles, since you have to make your way back on the same battery charge.


That basically limits to people who live their daily lives in the same city. If you do anything outside of that, you are totally SOL.
 
AFAIK, only Honda is bringing out an EV with less than 100 miles, and IMO, it's to build a claim that drivers don't want EVs, and will instead embrace Hydrogen. Honda's EV is after all, their Hydrogen car, with the fuel cell removed and a bigger battery. It's just about the least appealing EV on the market. It's the lowest range EV, and it's KIWF hideous. The Clarity EV was built to fail.

When you read Green Car Forums, there is one common question: After the GM Bolt, how do low range EV's sell? Going forward 200 mile range is the number. You will have to give away EVs with significantly less range than that.
 
nutzo said:
I like the concept of a plugin Hybrid, but can't justify the higher cost or the loss of trunk/interior space and lack of space for a spare tire.

Even the extra $2,700 I paid for a Camry hybrid will take me years to break even. Depending on the price of gas, I figured 5-10 years.
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At almost 10 years by the time you paid off the difference the car would be ready for a battery replacement wouldn't it? Whats the warranty like 7 years now on batteries?
 
While I don't need it for daily use, at least 6-10 times a year I take a much more than 100 mile trip. I really couldn't justify renting a vehicle instead because my primary vehicle has such a mediocre range.
 
shansoft said:
Another excuse for car makers to put low capacity battery...

My travel per day is at least 70-100 miles from home to office, and that is Bay Area alone.
In more rural area it's gonna get worse. Saying 100 miles is enough is like saying eating salad is enough for a meal. Bullshit...
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pretty much sums it up, least amount of money for the most profit.. it costs nothing to make an efficient 1 or 2 liter engine vs cost of batteries and electric motors and/or competing with nissan by doing what they're doing with the leaf where they'll replace the entire battery pack for free if it fails or drops below a certain efficiency level.

KarsusTG said:
I think those people do not live in Texas
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no they live in million dollar mansions and never leave their houses without some one else driving them.. that's why you never let the people at the top make decisions for the general public since they're so out of touch from the real world most of the time.
 
This all gets me to thinking, and I've never really put too much thought into this because I use public transportation - but how much mileage do cars lose when the AC or heat is turned on? How much do EVs generally lose in cold weather?
 
Dead Parrot said:
Range needed depends on where you live. If you are in a major dense coastal city, you might not much range. Those of use that live in "fly over country" often have friends and relatives that are 20-40 miles away. A 100+ mile trip in one day happens often.

And it isn't just the initial cost of the vehicle. The registration fees can be significant and the required insurance costs will often wipe out any savings on fuel if you buy one as a second vehicle.
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You won't have chargers for a long time anyway. EVs have a long way to go, regardless.
 
Hypergreatthing said:
Basically plug in hybrids. Ones that can run on full electric for some small mileage commutes, yet still has a gas engine to get you from coast to coast if need be.
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Which brings up Honda again. Honda and Toyota really do not believe in BEVs.

For Honda, that means even their plug-in hybrids will have anemic batteries mostly specced to appease California.

13 miles on the last Accord plug in Hybrid. That is enough for a one way commute to work for me (in absolute best case conditions).

Which as just about anyone with any Li-ion battery device knows, fully charging and discharging the battery is a really good way to preserve the lifespan of such an expensive component of the powertrain. Sure, they all leave a portion of the battery as "spare" but it never gets around the primary issue of having not enough battery to really make the "plug in hybrid" idea really work.


I would love to only have to charge my car at home, and never have to fill up (except for long trips).

But I also have classes 28 miles away. To avoid rush hour traffic on the way there, I leave when it's still dark out. On the way back, it is rush hour slogging for 50-60min (though with a very careful foot and eyes, I have moved my current DD, an AWD CRV, to 27mpg).

Either one of my routes involves quite a bit of elevation changing (at speed), none of it beneficial. I really have to stress 27MPG as being absolutely fucking phenomenal for me, since my previous car, a Fit, could not get more than 25MPG (those 600-800 foot hills and stoplights really killed fuel economy on that car). I would love to have a car that could regenerate on the downhill portions.
 
Nytegard said:
For me, that $2700 was paid off fairly quick. But I got a Nissan Altima Hybrid, right before they stopped making them. Strangely, their hybrid didn't have a sunroof, yet all their regular Altimas did, which only helped the situation.
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Funny, that's just like the Camry. The 4cyl XLE model came with a sunroof standard, while on the Hybrid XLE, the sunroof was a $1,000 option.
I'm sure they decided to make to make the sunroof optional on the Hybrid, to keep difference lower. Since I'm 6 foot, I don't like sunroofs because they lose around an inch of headroom.
The fact that the Hybrid didn't have a sunroof was one of the reasons I decided to go with the Hybrid, even though it had a long payback period due the my short commute (less than 15 miles round trip). If the Hybrid had cone standard with the sunroof (which likely would have made the Hybrid a $3700 option), I would have ended up with a different (likely non-hybrid) car.
 
swatbat said:
At almost 10 years by the time you paid off the difference the car would be ready for a battery replacement wouldn't it? Whats the warranty like 7 years now on batteries?
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Warranty is 8 years.

The reason the payback period is so long, is my short commute. I only average around 5,000 mile a year. Based on the limited driving, the batteries should last much longer that 8 year.
Also with the 17 gallon gas tank and the 600+ mile range, I can go over a month between fill-ups. I just fill it up on my monthly Costco trip since they have the best prices :D


My past few cars I've kept around 11 years. Since I'm driving less now, I'll likely keep this car longer. If you keep track of the mileage and watch the battery charge level, you should be able to tell if the batter is starting to get weak. If I see that after 10+ years, I'll likely sell the car and buy something else rather than worry about replacing the batteries.
 
jeremyshaw said:
Either one of my routes involves quite a bit of elevation changing (at speed), none of it beneficial. I really have to stress 27MPG as being absolutely fucking phenomenal for me, since my previous car, a Fit, could not get more than 25MPG (those 600-800 foot hills and stoplights really killed fuel economy on that car). I would love to have a car that could regenerate on the downhill portions.
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My morning commute is mostly down hill. I usually average around 50MPG in the morning :D
Depends on the traffic, the weather, how many lights I get stuck at, and how much charge is on the battery from the night before.
My record is around 72 MPG one morning :eek:, where the car was already warmed up and the battery had about a 3/4 charge on it.

Of course the mileage home in the evening is worse. Usually in the mid-upper 20's since it's mostly up hill.
Still, that's better than my previous 4 cyl Camry that only average 18 mpg for both directions.
 
jeremyshaw said:
Which as just about anyone with any Li-ion battery device knows, fully charging and discharging the battery is a really good way to preserve the lifespan of such an expensive component of the powertrain
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Do you have evidence of this?
 
Nenu said:
Do you have evidence of this?
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Yikes, it was poorly worded sarcasm. Deep discharging eats away at Li-on battery lifespan, fast. Automakers get around this by limiting the charge capacities, so you really only use about 1/2 or so of a battery's effective max capacity (vs normal consumer usage).

However for my use case, that Honda would still be running at its software defined limits on a daily basis just to fit my (relatively - for my area) short commute.
 
jeremyshaw said:
Yikes, it was poorly worded sarcasm. Deep discharging eats away at Li-on battery lifespan, fast. Automakers get around this by limiting the charge capacities, so you really only use about 1/2 or so of a battery's effective max capacity (vs normal consumer usage).

However for my use case, that Honda would still be running at its software defined limits on a daily basis just to fit my (relatively - for my area) short commute.
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Haha :)
I thought it best to check.
 
I'm 46 and I now wont work anywhere further than 30 miles from where I live. Life is too short for commuting if you can avoid it.
 
ruffbytes said:
I think range anxiety *does* exist, but it is largely unfounded. I can count on one hand the number of days a year I drive more than 100 miles. I could simply rent a car those days.

I do have trouble with current EVs because I use my truck to haul stuff a lot more often for the mini farm and house projects, usually a couple times a month - that might get expensive to rent.
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I drive more than 100 miles several times a week. Also low range WILL become a major problem for people in practice because they'll have to plug in their cars every time they stop somewhere. If they don't they will drain the battery inevitably just like in a gas vehicle but oops.. you can't fill the tank in 2 minutes. You need 4-6 hours.

Fortunately Honda has showed technical prowess lately in Formula1 so they're generally on the right track. :wacky:
 
DejaWiz said:
They need to FOAD with that thinking.

Just today (and it's quite typical)...
To work: 22 miles
To site #1: 20 miles
To site #2: 84 miles round trip
Total so far: 126 miles.
...and I still have to make it home after work.

There have been days where I easily log over 300 miles. No way in hell could I ever settle for the shit range of any EV available in the world right now. When I can get a minimum of 500 miles from a single full charge, then we'll talk. Until then, like I said, FOAD.
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So you don't settle in with an EV, seriously, why do you think 126 miles per day driving is in ANY WAY a typical commute for the average person? It's like heavy duty trucks, most people do not need them, yet some people do, doesn't mean that they should make every truck like that... although Toyota certainly has upped the size of it's trucks over time.
 
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