EVs with 100-Mile Range May Be All You Need, Some Automakers Say

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    Car companies that include Hyundai and Honda aren’t concerned about range too much, as demonstrated by vehicles such as the latter’s Clarity EV, which only gets around 80 miles per charge. They believe that efforts are better spent on MPGe and the efficiency of a vehicle, which would be undermined by the bigger, heavier batteries required for extended range. They also argue that range anxiety doesn’t really exist, as most daily trips are only around 100 miles.

    Steve Center, VP for environmental business development for Honda in the US, told Automotive News, “These people want a battery car and they know what they do and where they go. They’re very rational and they don’t need to lug around or charge up a 300-mile-range battery because that costs them electricity.” Honda has experience selling small EVs, to wit the Honda Fit EV that at 160 inches is almost three feet shorter than the Clarity and Accord. Honda sold only 1,100 of the Fit EVs. Obviously, one could argue there’s room for something in between, such as an EV version of the Honda Civic (367,000 sold last year) or CR-V compact crossover (357,000 sold last year).
     
  2. ruffbytes

    ruffbytes Limp Gawd

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    I think range anxiety *does* exist, but it is largely unfounded. I can count on one hand the number of days a year I drive more than 100 miles. I could simply rent a car those days.

    I do have trouble with current EVs because I use my truck to haul stuff a lot more often for the mini farm and house projects, usually a couple times a month - that might get expensive to rent.
     
  3. For my every day? Sure. I mostly work from home. And if I have to commute into Chicago, that's about 40 miles.

    However, I DO need a vehicle that can handle a 400 mile trip without taking all day to do it, as well as haul gear... And I refuse to buy two separate vehicles, nor rent a car.

    Fuck, if I could get something like a minivan with a 400 mile range, I'd jump on it so fast you'd be knocked over from the pressure wave of me passing you.

    And yeah, I'm aware that minivans aren't "sexy". Now ask me if I give a shit.
     
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  4. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    To me the biggest hurdles are price and that I live in a cold climate. And what I mean by price is I want a $30K US compact SUV with all wheel drive. Not a vehicle resembling a Nissan leaf. Also I expect that there are almost no filling stations anywhere near me.
     
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  5. Trepidati0n

    Trepidati0n [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The range issue, while, typically not large is still a negative value compared to current cars. If I had a graph says "you have 75% less range", don't give a fuck if you only use 25%..that 75% stat will win any argument.
     
  6. NoOther

    NoOther [H]ardness Supreme

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    100 miles is not all you need. I have a 90 mile round trip commute that does not include any stops along the way. Now add in the fact that I may need to run other stuff in the car like AC or Heat much of the time and that can cut into the miles per charge. Also add in that doing that commute would require me to charge the car every night, does not make it an optimum range. What happens if you live some where like an apartment (which has charging stations) but those stations are not always available? What happens if you have to make a trip to the grocery store or visit someone on your way home from work? What about appointments you may have to go to before work? There are all kinds of problems with a 100 mile range.
     
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  7. shansoft

    shansoft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Another excuse for car makers to put low capacity battery...

    My travel per day is at least 70-100 miles from home to office, and that is Bay Area alone.
    In more rural area it's gonna get worse. Saying 100 miles is enough is like saying eating salad is enough for a meal. Bullshit...
     
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  8. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot 2[H]4U

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    Range needed depends on where you live. If you are in a major dense coastal city, you might not much range. Those of use that live in "fly over country" often have friends and relatives that are 20-40 miles away. A 100+ mile trip in one day happens often.

    And it isn't just the initial cost of the vehicle. The registration fees can be significant and the required insurance costs will often wipe out any savings on fuel if you buy one as a second vehicle.
     
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  9. KIAman

    KIAman Limp Gawd

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    From a global perspective where most car buying people live in urban areas, the 100 mile range makes sense so their statement is very general. However, what they did not consider is that people tend to buy a car that suits all their needs even if certain needs tend to only manifest a few times a year. People save on registration, insurance and maintenance cost this way instead of dealing with owning multiple cars. The only way I can see a 100 mile EV to be successful is to have it priced low enough that it is worth it to have as an additional vehicle and even then, they need to compete with commuters (and beaters).
     
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  10. griffinhart

    griffinhart [H]ard|Gawd

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    The problem isn't that people typically drive more than 100 miles a day. It's that a rating of 100 miles is in ideal conditions. No need for heater, or AC. Suddenly, that 100 mile range is closer to 60, especially on cold winter days. That's might get me back and forth to work, but it would be a close thing and not allow me any flexibility for grabbing lunch or visiting friends after work. That, and there are many times when I do have to drive 100 miles, round trip. Visiting my most of my siblings, for example. I have two sisters and a brother that live over 60 miles away. I also have many friends that range from 30 to 90 miles away. There is no way a 100 mile EV would cut it for me.
     
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  11. Sufu

    Sufu [H]ard|Gawd

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    I used 100 miles of range yesterday just commuting to/from work and doing a quick pitstop no more than 4 miles from my house in 25F weather. 200 miles of range should be the minimum, 80 miles is a stupid joke.
     
  12. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I did 300 to 400 miles this weekend on trips that were 20 or so miles each way. It does not happen every week but it does happen.
     
  13. scojer

    scojer 2[H]4U

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    I wonder if this is bullshit or if it is real. If so screw electric cars. Let's all have cars that run off this.
     
  14. griffinhart

    griffinhart [H]ard|Gawd

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    You may be right, but the problem with living in urban areas, most people do not have the facility to charge the car. Especially if you are a renter. I also do not think that charging stations should be anything a taxpayer should fund. It's reasons like this that make me favor Fuel Cell tech over battery tech.
     
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  15. DWolvin

    DWolvin [H]ard|Gawd

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    If it was a 100 mile range on SoCal freeways, I'd but it tomorrow. My problem is a 55 mile commute (~ish, total), about 90% of which is on the freeway. Every non-tesla EV gets quiet when I ask, I even told Zero that I would put money down right then if they would promise that commute and 10 mile reserve for random shopping on the way home. Still, like Zero the 7% better every year means that soon I will go EV.


    Side note to Chas; my last business rental ended up being a 2016 town and country. Can't say enough about how nice and functional it was. I'd take a 200 mile EV minivan in less than a heartbeat.
     
  16. DWolvin

    DWolvin [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm going to call BS until it gets tested by someone outside his influence. To get that kind of range and still have the same power would mean that he's changed how the engine functions on a very basic level (or broken physics). Since he swears that he didn't even alter the timing- BS flag flies proudly.
     
  17. Napoleon

    Napoleon Gawd

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    but realistically if they can get these things charging faster, then 100 mile commute + charge = 200 mile daily range
     
  18. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    When you have claims of breaking the laws of physics and in this case extracting more energy than there is actually is in a gallon of fuel (114,100 BTU for gasoline per US gallon) and also breaking the thermal efficiency barrier for internal combustion engines all by some magic vaporizer?

    It's bullshit.
     
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  19. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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    100 miles is fine.

    As long as you can swap batteries at a charging station to fill up
     
  20. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Yeah page starts out at 463MPG... then literally 2 lines later OVER 900 MPG! They're really trying to impress you with numbers. But apparently the whole thing works by taking the gas fumes and feeding those into the engine? Something tells me his "test" is not very scientific, and his little 4oz countainer may indeed pump gas fumes into the engine, but it's probably also taking gas from the gas tank as well.

    Also a lovely image of his device shows vinyl braided tubing going right next to the engine block... yup that'll never melt.
     
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  21. NoOther

    NoOther [H]ardness Supreme

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    Our charging stations are not paid for by the taxpayer, we have to pay to charge. As far as I know, all the charging stations I have seen around here are the same way.

    But yes, part of my call of BS on this is that there aren't enough charging stations scattered around to make 100 miles viable, especially on a longer trip, considering you will have to spend at least 10-30 minutes at the charging station to get any kind of adequate charge.
     
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  22. buttons

    buttons [H]ard|Gawd

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    I would be pretty happy with 100 miles for a car i use to run errands and commute in. With my volt, we used the gas a lot more then you would expect -- especially in the winter. Our range went from 45 miles to 30 -- plus the car runs the engine to maintain battery temps -- i think this is a big reason why battery life on the volt is a lot more reliable then the leaf.
     
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  23. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    The Volt makes sense to me as a vehicle, or at least the concept does. Run it as much with cheap electricity as you can it but never be stuck in some ghetto with no way home just because the battery is dead.
     
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  24. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Well if you live in a densely populated urban area, then chances are you are paying the higher costs of living because you want to be in that urban area, meaning work, culture, entertainment, etc are all in that general area. So for those people a single car is perfectly fine with these restrictions. Then in those rare instances you need distance, rent a car, would not surprise me in the least if the cost of ownership of another car is more expensive then the cost of said car through rental agency for the number of times you'd actually need it.
     
  25. DeChache

    DeChache The ONE - Your Ignorance Annoys Me

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    While I get that argument. Mentally I see it as the same as gas. You have to make sure you have enough to make the trip. Granted yes at this time it takes less time to get gas than charge and EV but even the 15 minutes it takes to get gas in the Ghetto can be to long..
     
  26. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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    Basically plug in hybrids. Ones that can run on full electric for some small mileage commutes, yet still has a gas engine to get you from coast to coast if need be.
     
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  27. exiled350

    exiled350 Gawd

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    Its too bad 99% of the population cant understand that thermodynamics isnt a law that can be skirted like a highway speed limit or swimming naked in your neighbors pool...
     
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  28. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

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    When I lived in a larger denser area my average daily amount of driving was less than 10 miles, with a busy weekend maybe getting closer to 60 because of how far apart 2 or 3 locations might be. I now live in a smaller rural area it is 100 miles to the nearest shopping centre, another 20 between the stores I need to go to up there and then 100 coming back. My closest friends who I do enjoy visiting are nearly 400 miles away. If I can't do at least 400 miles on a single charge or have a place to charge along the way then it is useless to me.

    The place is live now is so small my biggest issue is not my MPG I fill the tank like once a month, it's keeping my breaks from rusting out from under the car as it is driven so infrequently, I would love an electric but the range limitations and the lack of charging stations is a very real problem for me.
     
  29. swatbat

    swatbat [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If it was a real 100 miles I'd agree with them for the most part. That needs to be 100 miles with the ac blasting or 100 miles in the cold with the heat and headlights on. I'd say you also need recharge stations along the highway. Past that for most people it would be a second car at best.

    I know I couldn't deal with the 100 mile range unless I could refill semi easy along the way. I'd say on most days I don't do more than say 60 to 70 miles. If it could do a true 100 in bad conditions than it might be doable.

    The other thing is how small some of these cars are. Again to me this makes it a secondary car for a single person or a secondary car for a couple. I think the number of times someone would either need something bigger or have to get help from someone else would push these out of the realm for many.

    All of the above covers someone that has their own parking. If you don't have a place to charge it over night it will be far less useful.
     
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  30. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    I guess they dont intend making many, they arent going to sell many.
     
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  31. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    They need to FOAD with that thinking.

    Just today (and it's quite typical)...
    To work: 22 miles
    To site #1: 20 miles
    To site #2: 84 miles round trip
    Total so far: 126 miles.
    ...and I still have to make it home after work.

    There have been days where I easily log over 300 miles. No way in hell could I ever settle for the shit range of any EV available in the world right now. When I can get a minimum of 500 miles from a single full charge, then we'll talk. Until then, like I said, FOAD.
     
  32. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just don't get a flat tire, as you will be also be stuck in some ghetto since the Volt doesn't have a spare tire.

    The lack of a spare tire (or even the room to properly securely a spare tire you buy yourself) is one of the reasons I have no interest in almost every plugin Hybrid or electric car.
    I've had too many flats that couldn't be fixed with a can of "Flat Fix" to ever trust not having a spare tire. Especially since it always seems like a flat tire happens at the most inopportune time. Like when you are on the way to a wedding or the airport, and waiting for the car to be towed to a tire shop is not an option.

    At least my Camry hybrid has a compact spare (I'd prefer a full size like my previous Camry, but now days you are lucky to even have a compact spare)
     
  33. Bowman15

    Bowman15 [H]ard|Gawd

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    It doesn't matter what they do or say if the middle class can't afford one.
     
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  34. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    never owned a can of tire inflation goo or an auto club membership?

    Breakdowns happen, I'm not accounting for those. I might blow the tranny out of the jeep or something else and have the same effect.
     
  35. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    I manage to travel 70 miles just one day on a weekend inside the same city limits. I'm not traveling between large places and I still don't think 80 miles is even a safe amount. This is why I'm still leaning toward getting a Tesla as my next car. Give me 200 miles per charge minimum, but 300 would make it equal to my gas machine.
     
  36. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    I like the concept of a plugin Hybrid, but can't justify the higher cost or the loss of trunk/interior space and lack of space for a spare tire.

    Even the extra $2,700 I paid for a Camry hybrid will take me years to break even. Depending on the price of gas, I figured 5-10 years.

    As for pure electrics, way to many compromises in size, storage, spare tire, charging time, etc.
    A 100 mile range would easily cover 85% of my driving, what about the other 15%?
    Owning an addition car would cost too much.
    While you could rent a car for a planned long trip (still a hassle and an expense), what happens when you have an emergency and suddenly need to drive somewhere?

    Only way I could see owning a current electric car is if I was retired.
    I could see having a cheap electric to share with the wife (would be better than a golf cart) for short trips to the store, and an ICE for longer trips.
     
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  37. DWolvin

    DWolvin [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yea, but you do know that you are a serious outlier, right? Most people drive far, far less. Hell, my 55 mile round trip puts me in the upper 25%, and it's one of the shorter commutes I have ever had.
     
  38. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have an auto club membership, but they don't usually carry spare tires with them.
    As for tire inflation goo, I've had maybe 1 flat over the past 20 years where that might have helped.

    I've never been stranded by a blown transmission or any other mechanical problem in any car I've owned.
    I've always been able to limp home in spite of the failure. Guess it helps buying reliable brands/models :D
     
  39. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    LOL, I twisted my drive shaft off plowing once, shit happens when your vehicle works hard.
     
  40. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    62 miles each way to work...no electric car in my future.