EVGA will no longer do business with NVIDIA

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idiomatic said:
I just sold several generations of EVGA cards last month as I rolled everyone over to Radeon 6000's. All my PSU's are EVGA.

I guess if this next gen is nVidia winning then I go to Asus Strix? What else is there?
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Nvidia reference cards? I would think that they have a US warranty. I had a Gigabyte Aorus that wasn't bad. Certain versions of MSI cards are ok.

To me, the warranty was the biggest draw of EVGA. I thought they were subpar compared to other Ampere cards honestly. The cooling solution was large but inadequate compared to other brands. They were more plentiful and generally cheaper than other brands in the Ampere generation though. I didn't use the warranty with EVGA on a video card, but I've used it with PSUs before and it was pretty painless. Had a new PSU in hand within days instead of weeks.
 
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alxlwson said:
My 3080 Ti FTW3! Ultra Gaming HydroCopper would like to have a word with with this notion of nVidia-limited designs.
The EVGA K|NGP|N editions rightfully bitchslap all notions of that false idea right out the window.
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Nvidia cards weren't bad for what they were and for probably 98% of the users out there. My 3090 FE ran cooler than my 3090 FTW3 (air) card. I sold the EVGA one and kept the FE. I don't watercool either though.

Hydrocopper and kingpin cards are almost in a totally different category. For one, they are designed for significantly more power draw, and two, the cooling is designed for the power draw. I'm sure there are plenty of kick ass systems that would run fine with a regular card, but would suffer power issues with the increased power. Not necessarily the sustained power either. The spikes brought many otherwise decent PSUs to their knees. I would imagine that the spikes were greater with cards designed for higher power draw.

TLDR: I would expect cards designed to use more power to function better.
 
Yeah I'm just going Founder's from here on out most likely. I would have gone FE for my 3060Ti, but still wasn't in stock when I got this for MSRP (FE was still cheaper). I'm gonna try to hold off until 5k series, 4k refresh at earliest (if there is one)
 
kirbyrj said:
Nvidia cards weren't bad for what they were and for probably 98% of the users out there. My 3090 FE ran cooler than my 3090 FTW3 (air) card. I sold the EVGA one and kept the FE. I don't watercool either though.

Hydrocopper and kingpin cards are almost in a totally different category. For one, they are designed for significantly more power draw, and two, the cooling is designed for the power draw. I'm sure there are plenty of kick ass systems that would run fine with a regular card, but would suffer power issues with the increased power. Not necessarily the sustained power either. The spikes brought many otherwise decent PSUs to their knees. I would imagine that the spikes were greater with cards designed for higher power draw.

TLDR: I would expect cards designed to use more power to function better.
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I would say indeed that an FE might run cooler than an FTW3!. Both power limits and clocks are significantly greater on the FTW3! compared to the FE.
 
ChadD said:
They aren't making GPUs anymore however. So they can't do that.

People with extended warranties that are upset... are upset cause that is what they where banking on. One of my first jobs many many many years ago was at a tech shop, managed the location I was at for my last few years there. The I got the warranty... so replace my 3 year old high end product with this years high end product or else crowd is tiresome and nothing new. (saw it with computer parts TVs cameras and everything in-between) Don't get me wrong often I gave people bumps up for sure... happily 9 times out of 10. 1 in 10 times though I purposely replaced their BUT THIS WAS SUPER HIGH END BRO products with newer mid range parts... this is better then what you got, here is the district managers VM if you want to leave him one. See ya. There are some customers like that... people that come in with a month left on their extended warranty with a part they obviously broke themselves expecting to get the latest flagship part as a replacement. :) I had one customer once that did complain and hilariously my boss while doing inventory at another location that week found a sealed box that had fell behind some other boxes in their security cage. He called me up and said hey call that guy up and tell him I got his message and am very sorry if he comes back in you can swap him out for a like product. The look on that dudes face... I will never forget it, best thing that ever happened to me in my retail years.

Hopefully EVGA plans it perfect and holds enough 3000s to replace them 5 years from now 1-1. That is the most such warranties guarantee.
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I literally was standing in line at a MC where the guy behind me was telling me the extended warranty is worth. He buys the highest end card then breaks it before the warranty expires. Since MC won't have stock of those cards they will fully refund the total cost.
 
vegeta535 said:
I literally was standing in line at a MC where the guy behind me was telling me the extended warranty is worth. He buys the highest end card then breaks it before the warranty expires. Since MC won't have stock of those cards they will fully refund the total cost.
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Yep the place I worked at ended up bought out by Best Buy around the time I left. Future shop in Canada... basically was Canadian BB. They actually ran both FS and BB in Canada for years and most people had no idea BB bought FS... they would have little pretend price wars. lol Anyway, yes I know the type. We saw them often. Our warranty was actually pretty good on smaller things... larger things we would send them out for repair, and contracted places that would provide refurbs ect. But lots of smaller things I would just replace with something close in stock. When it was some little old lady who was shocked that I took her broken Cannon Camera and handed her the latest model in a box cause she expected me to send it away or something... it was pretty fantastic. When it was the guys like that... ya I would speak geek for 10 min explaining how this her new X is much better then what you brought in... then without skipping a beat I would offer to sell them a new Warranty. lol

That story though... ya I argued with that guy for probably half an hour and I thought at one point he might slug me, but he just rubbed me the wrong way. lol Sort of wish my boss had let me listen to the Voice mail he left him. From what he told me it was pretty epic. The part I gave him wasn't a flagship but it was much better then what he got... and sure beat me sending it off for a few weeks for a refurb part. (which was something I offered to do for him) He was not happy though. If I remember right I think the current flag ship was like 3 or 4 hundred more then he had paid as well, things had jumped up a bit. Figured I was going to take something he paid 500 bucks for 3 years before and give him a 800 new in a box part. Anyway he still got a 100% brand new in a box replacement... we cleaned 3 years of dust of the box we dug up. The look on his face though I don't even remember all the details anymore I think it actual was a video card ? can't remember which anymore. All I remember is the look on his face. I started doing the paper work before he saw the card when I pulled it up on the counter after loggin his first replacement back in it looked like he smelled something rotten. Think he said something about no referbs... and gave up quick when I said its not look still sealed. haha
 
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ChadD said:
Yep the place I worked at ended up bought out by Best Buy around the time I left. Future shop in Canada... basically was Canadian BB. They actually ran both FS and BB in Canada for years and most people had no idea BB bought FS... they would have little pretend price wars. lol Anyway, yes I know the type. We saw them often. Our warranty was actually pretty good on smaller things... larger things we would send them out for repair, and contracted places that would provide refurbs ect. But lots of smaller things I would just replace with something close in stock. When it was some little old lady who was shocked that I took her broken Cannon Camera and handed her the latest model in a box cause she expected me to send it away or something... it was pretty fantastic. When it was the guys like that... ya I would speak geek for 10 min explaining how this her new X is much better then what you brought in... then without skipping a beat I would offer to sell them a new Warranty. lol

That story though... ya I argued with that guy for probably half an hour and I thought at one point he might slug me, but he just rubbed me the wrong way. lol Sort of wish my boss had let me listen to the Voice mail he left him. From what he told me it was pretty epic. The part I gave him wasn't a flagship but it was much better then what he got... and sure beat me sending it off for a few weeks for a refurb part. (which was something I offered to do for him) He was not happy though. If I remember right I think the current flag ship was like 3 or 4 hundred more then he had paid as well, things had jumped up a bit. Figured I was going to take something he paid 500 bucks for 3 years before and give him a 800 new in a box part. Anyway he still got a 100% brand new in a box replacement... we cleaned 3 years of dust of the box we dug up. The look on his face though I don't even remember all the details anymore I think it actual was a video card ? can't remember which anymore. All I remember is the look on his face. I started doing the paper work before he saw the card when I pulled it up on the counter after loggin his first replacement back in it looked like he smelled something rotten. Think he said something about no referbs... and gave up quick when I said its not look still sealed. haha
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Fun fact: It was a Futureshop where I bought my first GPU; My beloved Voodoo3 3500.
 
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SeymourGore said:
Fun fact: It was a Futureshop where I bought my first GPU; My beloved Voodoo3 3500.
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I started there I was pretty young think I spent a year or so at Office depot actually out of high school. Anyway when I started there we for sure sold Voodoo 2s still. The early TNT cards, Rage cards all those oldies. I wish I had bought some of those old cards and just threw em in a closet and forgot about them. I ended up staying there for way too long... but man FS was 100% commission, I remember being 20 years old making just under 6 figures and laughing when people would ask me if I was going to ever do something serious. I was young and dumb. Was a fun place to work while it lasted though.
 
Igor's write-up.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/evga-pulls-the-plug-with-loud-bang-yet-it-has-long-been-editorial/

Summary from reddit:
  • EVGA's ~5% margin is amongst the lowest in the business, others are can achieve up to around 10% but sell en mass - which EVGA does not outside NA
  • Igor belives EVGA owner wants out after 2 very profitable years (20/21) as alluded by GN's own reporting about owner wanting to spent more time with family
  • Other AIC belives EVGA warranty policy, and its own reliability issues makes its business model completely unsustainable, as components became more and more complex
  • Igor had been blacklisted by EVGA before when writing for Tom's hardware because he refused to guarantee postive reviews, quote:
I remember how EVGA at the time (this was back in the Kepler days) made the sampling of graphics cards dependent on a positive review of the newly introduced power supplies. Back then, I was still writing for Tom’s Hardware and very stubbornly resisted the “reward for award” system.
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  • Igor also got yelled at by EVGA PR for exposing its early GTX 10 iCX designs (which caused a big recall) for its inadequacy in board deaign
  • Nvidia is so secretive that even its competitors are unhappy because they could not find out what exactly RTX 40 is going to be let alone its pricing (not to mention the AICs)
  • EVGA (and presumably GALAX) butted heads with Nvidia because it wanted to do extreme GPUs, but Nvidia on reliability grounds makes it difficult to work with
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yeah, because having less choices has historically always been great for the consumer!
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In this situation it's worse. These are Nvidia cards and nobody cares who is the AIB. You go to Nvidia's website to download the Nvidia drivers. The fact that AIB's exist is just an old legacy business model left over from the 90's. You don't buy PS5 from someone other than Sony. Too many AIB's put worse components on their designs while also deviating enough from the reference design that finding a replacement cooler or fan is hard or expensive. What would happen if we just bought cards from Nvidia only? Probably cheaper products and less problems.

ChadD said:
EVGA not testing though its the same issue every AIB had.
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It's funny because this is an issue with a lot of AIB's. I've seen too many shit setups from Asus not cooling the power rail for the memory to EVGA cards not making total contact on the heatpipes. In most cases you'll find worse VRM setups than reference with the exception of some Asus ROG cards. I've been watching a lot of Buildzoid to know how shitty some of these cards get.
They got specs from Nvidia... they said this is the Freq range you can set your firmware too, THIS is the power envelope you can feed to the GPU. YOU ARE NOT TO go over either or we fire you. Cause Nvidia has decided they don't want third parties selling over clocked cards no more. They don't want overclocked mid range cards eat sales of higher end cards.
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I don't see a problem with any of this. Nvidia made the chips so they know the limits. As long as I can overclock then that's all that matters.
Perhaps going forward its better if Nvidia just handles it all themselves. It is a shitty way to deal with companies you are calling partners though. They let them all take the fall on the 3000 launch.
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The reason EVGA is going bye bye is because the crypto market crashed after 2 years of EVERYONE selling over priced toys that plays video games. The margins were low because the sales were high. Nvidia and all the AIB's including EVGA, thought that the crypto boom would last indefinitely. Not learning from history back in 2014 and 2016 when the last two crypto booms had also busted. Not only crypto failed but you'll never see GPU's used for mining due to proof of stack. The market crashed and AIB's are mad as hell at Nvidia because margins are still low, probably due to contracts they agreed to. Nvidia told them to deal with it, because shareholders are important because for the past year Nvidia's stock went from $300 a share to currently $130. Even Nancy Pelosi couldn't even predict that. Keep in mind Nvidia's stock was worth $70 pre-pandemic so there's still more to go.

Something else to keep in mind is that if Nvidia was a problem and EVGA wanted to truly stay in business then they could make graphic cards with AMD and maybe even Intel GPU's. So either EVGA sees a much bigger problem for the GPU market's future or EVGA has no faith in AMD and Intel capturing any market share away from Nvidia. I don't see EVGA as the victim of Nvidia, but instead their own greed.
Axman said:
Again, as long as the company remains in business, they are legally required to honor their warranties.

If they fold, that’s a different story, but true for any company.
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What company has ever honored their warranty once they stepped out of the market? Maybe for like a year or two? Is EVGA going to sustain themselves by selling power supplies? Give it 2-3 years and I say they close up shop and fade away, just like OCZ. Maybe Asus might buy them and honor your warranty if you're lucky.
 
DukenukemX said:
What company has ever honored their warranty once they stepped out of the market? Maybe for like a year or two? Is EVGA going to sustain themselves by selling power supplies? Give it 2-3 years and I say they close up shop and fade away, just like OCZ. Maybe Asus might buy them and honor your warranty if you're lucky.
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Given most laws regarding extended warranties once it’s discontinued many may just be SoL. The best bet anybody who does have the extended warranty would be to keep your documentation so that should it fail in that time and they can’t honour it yet are still in operation then you can take it up with the credit card provider you purchased it with. Though if you didn’t use a credit card or EVGA no longer exists then good luck is all I can say.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Igor's write-up.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/evga-pulls-the-plug-with-loud-bang-yet-it-has-long-been-editorial/
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Probably the most level headed article up until now regarding this topic.

Kinda sad to see them go, mostly due to their lenience in warranties regarding water cooling. However they have made a few mistakes in almost each generation of cards since Maxwell that may have lead them here. Besides this, except for the Kingpins cards they don't have a lot of interesting designs. Mostly copy paste of the reference design or FE design with an higher price tag.

Heck my current card had that awful thermal putty on it that was "cemented" when i tried to first open my card. Needed to heat up the card with a hairdryer in order to get the heatsink off.
For the warranty i would have had to get the card to original state, and they were out of stock for the thermal putty since day one almost. Well that issue was sorted out now :)
 
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DooKey said:
View attachment 511543
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If GPUs are 80% of their income this is probably the beginning of the end for EVGA. That division may not generate profit, but it pays a lot of wages. Certainly the EVGA of two weeks ago is dead, the company will have to look VERY different in the future.

They're done with nVidia forever now, no matter what. As far as I have read from media and former partners (like XFX) nVidia tends to be a petty, vindictive little cabal that doesn't just cut ties when they feel wronged, they seek revenge. Just read up on what they tried to do to the media that came to the defence of Hardware Unboxed.
 
If EVGA goes out of business in a few years then I think we'll look back on this very differently. Conversations about "mismanagement" will be more appropriate.
I think they come back with Intel/AMD though and they are downplaying it for now. No way they throw away 20 years of video card manufacturing experience.
 
vegeta535 said:
I literally was standing in line at a MC where the guy behind me was telling me the extended warranty is worth. He buys the highest end card then breaks it before the warranty expires. Since MC won't have stock of those cards they will fully refund the total cost.
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I'm not sure what MC's official policy is, but dude doesn't know that items can be replaced with similar performing items and doesn't always need to be the exact same item?
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
If EVGA goes out of business in a few years then I think we'll look back on this very differently. Conversations about "mismanagement" will be more appropriate.
I think they come back with Intel/AMD though and they are downplaying it for now. No way they throw away 20 years of video card manufacturing experience.
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You mean 20 years of outsourcing and importing experience. :) I mean Foxconn still counts Asus Gigabyte MSI and Nvidia themselves as customers.

EVGA was doing some design work in the US... but that takes a lot fewer people then you would imagine. The majority of EVGAs 250 staff are import export specialists and sales people.
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm not sure what MC's official policy is, but dude doesn't know that items can be replaced with similar performing items and doesn't always need to be the exact same item?
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I don't know. I doubt they will replace a 3090 with a 4080/4090 if there are no more 3090 available. It is simpler to just give them their money back I guess. I haven't looked at their warranty policy recently.

Edit:
I just looked it up and their plan is limited to $500 on electronics now.
 
vegeta535 said:
I don't know. I doubt they will replace a 3090 with a 4080/4090 if there are no more 3090 available. It is simpler to just give them their money back I guess. I haven't looked at their warranty policy recently.

Edit:
I just looked it up and their plan is limited to $500 on electronics now.
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So what does that mean? They'll only refund $500 or less? Everything else gets exchange with something else?
 
DukenukemX said:
In this situation it's worse. These are Nvidia cards and nobody cares who is the AIB. You go to Nvidia's website to download the Nvidia drivers. The fact that AIB's exist is just an old legacy business model left over from the 90's. You don't buy PS5 from someone other than Sony. Too many AIB's put worse components on their designs while also deviating enough from the reference design that finding a replacement cooler or fan is hard or expensive. What would happen if we just bought cards from Nvidia only? Probably cheaper products and less problems.


It's funny because this is an issue with a lot of AIB's. I've seen too many shit setups from Asus not cooling the power rail for the memory to EVGA cards not making total contact on the heatpipes. In most cases you'll find worse VRM setups than reference with the exception of some Asus ROG cards. I've been watching a lot of Buildzoid to know how shitty some of these cards get.

I don't see a problem with any of this. Nvidia made the chips so they know the limits. As long as I can overclock then that's all that matters.

The reason EVGA is going bye bye is because the crypto market crashed after 2 years of EVERYONE selling over priced toys that plays video games. The margins were low because the sales were high. Nvidia and all the AIB's including EVGA, thought that the crypto boom would last indefinitely. Not learning from history back in 2014 and 2016 when the last two crypto booms had also busted. Not only crypto failed but you'll never see GPU's used for mining due to proof of stack. The market crashed and AIB's are mad as hell at Nvidia because margins are still low, probably due to contracts they agreed to. Nvidia told them to deal with it, because shareholders are important because for the past year Nvidia's stock went from $300 a share to currently $130. Even Nancy Pelosi couldn't even predict that. Keep in mind Nvidia's stock was worth $70 pre-pandemic so there's still more to go.

Something else to keep in mind is that if Nvidia was a problem and EVGA wanted to truly stay in business then they could make graphic cards with AMD and maybe even Intel GPU's. So either EVGA sees a much bigger problem for the GPU market's future or EVGA has no faith in AMD and Intel capturing any market share away from Nvidia. I don't see EVGA as the victim of Nvidia, but instead their own greed.

What company has ever honored their warranty once they stepped out of the market? Maybe for like a year or two? Is EVGA going to sustain themselves by selling power supplies? Give it 2-3 years and I say they close up shop and fade away, just like OCZ. Maybe Asus might buy them and honor your warranty if you're lucky.
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These were my exact thoughts... If April was when EVGA notified NVIDIA about them pulling out... (call me a conspiracy theorist.. tin foil wearing fool.. but EVGA saw the writing on the wall)

1663602179198.png



This is actually a slap in the face to gamers from EVGA.... This is their way of saying.. "Mining is dead.. F the gamers.. we are out"... All things in paradise are good though when GPU's are gouged because of the mining boom..


Keep being loyal to one brand though
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm not sure what MC's official policy is, but dude doesn't know that items can be replaced with similar performing items and doesn't always need to be the exact same item?
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In the US the seller is only required to cover 30 days at most, after that it falls to the manufacture. Unless the store itself was selling and covering the warranty process. Bestbuy offers their own in store for example.
 
sfsuphysics said:
So what does that mean? They'll only refund $500 or less? Everything else gets exchange with something else?
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They will only provide additional warranty coverage on electronic items costing $500 or less. So no more extended warranty on 3090s and such.
 
jlbenedict said:
These were my exact thoughts... If April was when EVGA notified NVIDIA about them pulling out... (call me a conspiracy theorist.. tin foil wearing fool.. but EVGA saw the writing on the wall)

View attachment 511570


This is actually a slap in the face to gamers from EVGA.... This is their way of saying.. "Mining is dead.. F the gamers.. we are out"... All things in paradise are good though when GPU's are gouged because of the mining boom..


Keep being loyal to one brand though
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Yeah it’s going to be really interesting to see how many EVGA cards are popping up as “lightly used” on eBay and such in the coming weeks now that most big mining firms in the US are packing up. I suspect they did more than their fair share of direct sales by the flat to the crypto Bros.
 
vegeta535 said:
I don't know. I doubt they will replace a 3090 with a 4080/4090 if there are no more 3090 available. It is simpler to just give them their money back I guess. I haven't looked at their warranty policy recently.

Edit:
I just looked it up and their plan is limited to $500 on electronics now.
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They also added a lot of language back in 2018 that gives them a lot of outs on actually paying out or replacing cards under the extended warranty program.
 
Lakados said:
In the US the seller is only required to cover 30 days at most, after that it falls to the manufacture. Unless the store itself was selling and covering the warranty process. Bestbuy offers their own in store for example.
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Ok forgot about this, I don't know why MC would be on the hook for the full 3 year warranty unless they sold an extended warranty.
vegeta535 said:
They will only provide additional warranty coverage on electronic items costing $500 or less. So no more extended warranty on 3090s and such.
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Makes sense, too my asshats out there purposefully damaging stuff just to cash in on a warranty in yet another installment of "this is why we can't have good things"
Just like everyone who bought like an EVGA GT240 video card to "skip the line" to get a 30 series card.
 
vegeta535 said:
I don't know. I doubt they will replace a 3090 with a 4080/4090 if there are no more 3090 available. It is simpler to just give them their money back I guess. I haven't looked at their warranty policy recently.

Edit:
I just looked it up and their plan is limited to $500 on electronics now.
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The accidental damage plans for small electronics don't have a price cap, just the replacement plans: https://www.microcenter.com/site/customer-support/protection-plans/adh-small-electronic-devices.aspx
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Igor had been blacklisted by EVGA before when writing for Tom's hardware because he refused to guarantee postive reviews, quote:
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EVGA blacklisted HardOCP about ~20 years ago from samples because we gave them a "bad" review on an in-house cooler. We went back and discussed our conclusion and our data with EVGA. Please tell us what is wrong with our data? Never got an answer, just never sampled again.
 
FrgMstr said:
EVGA blacklisted HardOCP about ~20 years ago from samples because we gave them a "bad" review on an in-house cooler. We went back and discussed our conclusion and our data with EVGA. Please tell us what is wrong with our data? Never got an answer, just never sampled again.
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I have yet to find anyone that fills the void HardOCP left, with brutally honest reviews and completely unbiased reporting.
 
FrgMstr said:
EVGA blacklisted HardOCP about ~20 years ago from samples because we gave them a "bad" review on an in-house cooler. We went back and discussed our conclusion and our data with EVGA. Please tell us what is wrong with our data? Never got an answer, just never sampled again.
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Took some digging, but interesting read. From a consumer standpoint, it was a good, honest review. EVGA had a good idea with their fan at the time, but was poorly executed:
https://web.archive.org/web/20030928222309/http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Mjg0LDU=
 
vegeta535 said:
Supposedly with all the recent heavy price cutting AiBs are losing money on each sale. Jay used a EVGA 3090 as a example. At $1399 they are losing money. Right now I see it as low as $1099 at MC for it. MC probably eating a lot of that themselves. Which I am ok with MC and other retailers losing money. They were the primary cause of the insane prices.
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The primary cause of the insane prices were crypto bros to the mooning every shit coin they could come up with. Were retailers inflating prices, in many cases even to the point of gouging, due to the imbalance between the demand for cards and the available supply? Yes, but in my opinion, they were more a symptom than the cause.

Sad to see EVGA go, but if the conjecture in some of the coverage is correct, then their profit margins on their PSUs especially could sustain a viable, albeit much smaller scale, business model. Maybe they'll add more motherboard models?
 
Axman said:
That's the thing, they aren't.

They're 80 percent of their income, but they were also getting close to 80 percent of their expenses.

What EVGA is saying with this, is fuck this noise, we don't work for free.
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Apparently they announced this to Nvidia back in April, before crytpo crashed again.

I guess my take is, if they couldn't make money on GPU's in that climate, with its crazy and excessive markups, then maybe they should get out of the market.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Igor had been blacklisted by EVGA before when writing for Tom's hardware because he refused to guarantee postive reviews
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FrgMstr said:
EVGA blacklisted HardOCP about ~20 years ago from samples because we gave them a "bad" review on an in-house cooler. We went back and discussed our conclusion and our data with EVGA. Please tell us what is wrong with our data? Never got an answer, just never sampled again.
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Yeah, I mean, we have to remember that the reason manufacturers send out review samples in the first place is for marketing purposes. They aren't interested in fair reviews.

Still that doesn't justify them cutting off those who write honest reviews. It's really shitty.

Now, the situation is even worse. There aren't any reviewers left. Just "influencers." They serve only one purpose, and it is their own, and indirectly those of the manufacturers.

In the YouTube era hardware reviews aren't worth the bandwidth you used to watch them.
 
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