Every desirable video card model is now OOS tonight. Unreal.

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Andrew_Carr

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A) we're talking GPUs, not apartments. Their necessity is quite different. B) In either case, you're ending up with shortages, because whether you control the price or not, people keep wanting the same resource. So why not create a queue where everybody signs up and gets what they want when it's their turn?
Because then you end up with the situation you had in the soviet union where people were waiting 10+ years for a car because the gap between supply and demand keeps growing.
 

Ebernanut

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Because then you end up with the situation you had in the soviet union where people were waiting 10+ years for a car because the gap between supply and demand keeps growing.
That's a bad analogy because there was zero incentive for soviet factories to be productive while the companies involved here do make money off of product sold and thus do have incentive to meet demand if it's feasible. This is about how tempoary shortages are handled not a slow motion collapse of the whole production sector.
 

euskalzabe

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This is about how tempoary shortages are handled not a slow motion collapse of the whole production sector.
Thank you. Someone who actually gets it. I'm not advocating to change how the whole market works, but when you have extreme situations, non-conventional regulations are warranted.
 

Andrew_Carr

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That's a bad analogy because there was zero incentive for soviet factories to be productive while the companies involved here do make money off of product sold and thus do have incentive to meet demand if it's feasible. This is about how tempoary shortages are handled not a slow motion collapse of the whole production sector.
So what's the solution, convince your supplier to take out loans for capital expenses to build more fabs for a temporary surge in demand in a few years? What do you do with these expenses and loans once the temporary surge in demand is over? I don't think all of these changes in demand (ammo, computer parts, etc.) are all temporary but businesses are acting like they are and they have access to much more data than I do to make that decision.
 

Ebernanut

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Thank you. Someone who actually gets it. I'm not advocating to change how the whole market works, but when you have extreme situations, non-conventional regulations are warranted.
I think it'd be good if the retailers or manufacturers employed some sort of queue system but I wouldn't want that to be part of a regulation, I am in favor of some sort of regulation to address the most egregious price gouging but I'd want some wiggle room in there because strict price controls have negative side effects.
So what's the solution, convince your supplier to take out loans for capital expenses to build more fabs for a temporary surge in demand in a few years? What do you do with these expenses and loans once the temporary surge in demand is over? I don't think all of these changes in demand (ammo, computer parts, etc.) are all temporary but businesses are acting like they are and they have access to much more data than I do to make that decision.
I'm saying since we live in a capitalist society the problem will eventually fix itself, comparing that to supply issues in the soviet union doesn't make sense. Fabs take a long time and a bunch of money to spin up so there's no immediate relief in sight but if the demand persists then someone will step in to meet the demand and make money.
 

UltraTaco

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If we all had the same salary and product prices were regulated, we would be so much better off.(not with just GPU's)
 

Andrew_Carr

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If we all had the same salary and product prices were regulated, we would be so much better off.(not with just GPU's)
Let's put weights on the faster runners, shorten the legs of tall people, make pretty people wear ugly masks, and put devices on smart people's heads to make them dumber too while we're at it. Then we can all be equal.
 

UltraTaco

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LoL.......do you like beige?
Oh yeah......that is only available in size 8.......

Let's put weights on the faster runners, shorten the legs of tall people, make pretty people wear ugly masks, and put devices on smart people's heads to make them dumber too while we're at it. Then we can all be equal.
Well I dont mean like extreme regulating, but rather if you work 8 hours, you get bliidy paid for 8 hours! One might argue certain jobs are for smart people, well it doesnt matter if you work with you're head or brain, same pay! Also women should be paid same as well, no matter what your occupation is. It would make much more sense!! Like building blocks of humanity!

You mates would be very glad if it were this way! You just haven't tried it! Everything that's happning is bloody pants!! A lot would be fixed with my proposition.

And beige is fine, noctua fans are beige and their fine!
 

NightReaver

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Well I dont mean like extreme regulating, but rather if you work 8 hours, you get bliidy paid for 8 hours! One might argue certain jobs are for smart people, well it doesnt matter if you work with you're head or brain, same pay! Also women should be paid same as well, no matter what your occupation is. It would make much more sense!! Like building blocks of humanity!

You mates would be very glad if it were this way! You just haven't tried it! Everything that's happning is bloody pants!! A lot would be fixed with my proposition.

And beige is fine, noctua fans are beige and their fine!
......what?
 

Mystique

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A) we're talking GPUs, not apartments. Their necessity is quite different. B) In either case, you're ending up with shortages, because whether you control the price or not, people keep wanting the same resource. So why not create a queue where everybody signs up and gets what they want when it's their turn?
Easier for a manufacturer to make money without things being in the consumers best interest. The quicker they sell things, the better it is for them. This shortage is only driving up their price, and their shareholder value. Why would they change what they're doing lol?
 

J Macker

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... meanwhile, MSI, PNY and Zotac raised MSRPs on Newegg over the weekend, and the GPUs are still sold out.

I hypothesize that only the ultra-wealthy would be able to purchase high-end video cards and production would be MUCH smaller if we had a fixed income system. We'd have to save our peanuts for 5-7 years in order to afford a top-tier GPU. I believe this shortage was intentionally caused by nVidia so that they can raise prices next generation to match current scalping levels (or slightly less), then gamers are accustomed to the higher prices already. Miners & scalpers get hated now instead of nVidia. But, don't forget that nVidia sold tens of thousands, potentially hundred plus thousand Ampere gpus directly to miners before the USA release. This is how they caused the shortage.

Add $7 to $10 for shipping and these are current prices:
Asus Strix 3080 = $950
Asus Tuf 3080= $876
Gigabyte Aorus 3080 = $930
MSI Gaming X Trio = $1099.99
MSI 3080 Ventus 3x = $1059.99
MSI 3080 Sprim = $1119.99
PNY 3080 Revel Epic = $950

And yet, the GPUs are STILL all sold out. This is a surreal market where the Asus Tuf model is among the cheapest!
oh, wait, there is a Gigabyte 3080 Gaming for $840, that's unlikely to ever get restocked.

Macker agrees with Taco though that the game is rigged against normal people. The wealth chasm gets larger every year.
 

Mystique

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The biggest enemy we have overall, IMO, is that AMD went MIA for years before ponying up a half decent competitive card. Intel's new card might have 30 TDW but it has specs from 2013.

It's just nvidia, setting the tone, the price, and the competition right now. Look @ the 2080 prices... lol.

Nvidia and AMD are now price gouging the crap out of everyone. Would be great if Intel stopped sleeping, and actually made decent CPU's and made a nice GPU. That might change the game. 'Till then, we're in a green monopoly, and red team is chasing the money they are dropping.
 

lopoetve

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... meanwhile, MSI, PNY and Zotac raised MSRPs on Newegg over the weekend, and the GPUs are still sold out.

I hypothesize that only the ultra-wealthy would be able to purchase high-end video cards and production would be MUCH smaller if we had a fixed income system. We'd have to save our peanuts for 5-7 years in order to afford a top-tier GPU. I believe this shortage was intentionally caused by nVidia so that they can raise prices next generation to match current scalping levels (or slightly less), then gamers are accustomed to the higher prices already. Miners & scalpers get hated now instead of nVidia. But, don't forget that nVidia sold tens of thousands, potentially hundred plus thousand Ampere gpus directly to miners before the USA release. This is how they caused the shortage.

Add $7 to $10 for shipping and these are current prices:
Asus Strix 3080 = $950
Asus Tuf 3080= $876
Gigabyte Aorus 3080 = $930
MSI Gaming X Trio = $1099.99
MSI 3080 Ventus 3x = $1059.99
MSI 3080 Sprim = $1119.99
PNY 3080 Revel Epic = $950

And yet, the GPUs are STILL all sold out. This is a surreal market where the Asus Tuf model is among the cheapest!
oh, wait, there is a Gigabyte 3080 Gaming for $840, that's unlikely to ever get restocked.

Macker agrees with Taco though that the game is rigged against normal people. The wealth chasm gets larger every year.
Tariffs. That's about a 25% increase across the board, I believe, which matches the tariff increase. Just takes a bit to trickle in as shipments in progress may not have had the tariff applied, depending on when they passed customs. Not commenting on the other parts, but the current MSRP is because of that at least.
 

Viper87227

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But, don't forget that nVidia sold tens of thousands, potentially hundred plus thousand Ampere gpus directly to miners before the USA release. This is how they caused the shortage.

This is the first i've heard of this, but some quick digging makes this sound like a very silly rumor. The original source is WCCFTech, which instantly makes it questionable. The math alone seems suspect. Supposedly Nvidia sold $175M worth of GPU's to miners. At $700 a pop (if 3080s), that's 250,000 GPUs. How the hell would Nvidia direct sell 250,000 GPUs to miners and keep it under the rug, save for one speculative WCCFTech clickbait article? How would they move that many cards pre-launch and not have a single one show up on ebay? Or have card details leaked? Images of a pallets of GPUs showing up to someone's house? How to they even find that many customers and then insure every single customer remains radio silent? It's not as if miners have a direct line to Nvidia.

Sounds like some seriously tinfoil hat shit to me.
 

Viper87227

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Tariffs. That's about a 25% increase across the board, I believe, which matches the tariff increase. Just takes a bit to trickle in as shipments in progress may not have had the tariff applied, depending on when they passed customs. Not commenting on the other parts, but the current MSRP is because of that at least.

I haven't been following the tariff conversation much, although I understand that is the explanation given for the increase in MSRP. FE hasn't increased in price that I am aware of, which would make sense, as I believe they are made in Taiwan and thus not subject to said tariff. What I am curious about though, for all the manufacturers that have raised prices, have they only raised them in the states? Anyone know what's happening in other markets? Have their MSRPs held globally?
 

euskalzabe

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Easier for a manufacturer to make money without things being in the consumers best interest. The quicker they sell things, the better it is for them. This shortage is only driving up their price, and their shareholder value. Why would they change what they're doing lol?
Nvidia and AMD are not making more money because prices are over MSRP. They charge what they charge to manufacturers, and they'll earn the exact same amount of money whether they sell instantly to a queue system, or wild west style on the general scalper-filled market. The entities pocketing all the over-MSRP money are either manufacturers, resellers or scalpers.
 

J Macker

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This is the first i've heard of this, but some quick digging makes this sound like a very silly rumor. The original source is WCCFTech, which instantly makes it questionable. The math alone seems suspect. Supposedly Nvidia sold $175M worth of GPU's to miners. At $700 a pop (if 3080s), that's 250,000 GPUs. How the hell would Nvidia direct sell 250,000 GPUs to miners and keep it under the rug, save for one speculative WCCFTech clickbait article? How would they move that many cards pre-launch and not have a single one show up on ebay? Or have card details leaked? Images of a pallets of GPUs showing up to someone's house? How to they even find that many customers and then insure every single customer remains radio silent? It's not as if miners have a direct line to Nvidia.

Sounds like some seriously tinfoil hat shit to me.

Yeah, must be all tabloid crap.

The "how" is because they didn't sell GPUs on cards to miners. They sold the ampere chips to ASIC manufacturers. Thus, no ampere cards on ebay before launch. nVidia didn't provide a card design to the ASIC manufacturers. They kept that to themselves and gave details how to implement the chips into asic rigs. I don't have confirmation of anything though. I'm just an internet nobody.
 

Repo79

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Remember when they dropped the 1080ti cards and then then 2080ti cards were more money, then they dropped the 3080 and better performance and cost less then the 2080ti. I'm thinking it may be better to wait till 4000 series if you can of course my Evga 2080ti is about to get a ek block on it and rock it for another year or so.
 

jerry8169

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Remember when they dropped the 1080ti cards and then then 2080ti cards were more money, then they dropped the 3080 and better performance and cost less then the 2080ti. I'm thinking it may be better to wait till 4000 series if you can of course my Evga 2080ti is about to get a ek block on it and rock it for another year or so.
I did the same, put a block on my 2080ti FE, and started playing with OC. When I can upgrade at a decent price, I will, till then I'll just start working with what I have.
 

Viper87227

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Yeah, must be all tabloid crap.

The "how" is because they didn't sell GPUs on cards to miners. They sold the ampere chips to ASIC manufacturers. Thus, no ampere cards on ebay before launch. nVidia didn't provide a card design to the ASIC manufacturers. They kept that to themselves and gave details how to implement the chips into asic rigs. I don't have confirmation of anything though. I'm just an internet nobody.

That's still the same source. Every article points to what one person said, with absolutely nothing backing it other than "this guy said so".

If Nvidia was only selling GPU's and not finished cards, logically they would be even less expensive. So how many did they sell for that $175M? 300,000? 500,000? Where are they? That's a lot of GPU's, there should be an abundance of those ASIC rigs floating around.
 

Rentard

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If we all had the same salary and product prices were regulated, we would be so much better off.(not with just GPU's)
Unfortunately, the problem here is they are refusing to produce more because they "think crypto will crash" and don't want there to be "too much stock and production capacity lest there be a massive crash and they lose money". It happened before.
It's absolutely not AMD's fault, although they did contribute slightly by not producing any meaningful high end competition for a while. Just like NVIDIA and ammo companies(1000% markup there btw lol), they too don't want to ramp up production and then get boned with a drop in demand. Although being AMD, they probably can't even afford to..
 

lopoetve

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I haven't been following the tariff conversation much, although I understand that is the explanation given for the increase in MSRP. FE hasn't increased in price that I am aware of, which would make sense, as I believe they are made in Taiwan and thus not subject to said tariff. What I am curious about though, for all the manufacturers that have raised prices, have they only raised them in the states? Anyone know what's happening in other markets? Have their MSRPs held globally?
As far as I know, yes - most other markets are about the same as before, plus VAT of course. Don't know what it looks like in Canada; that's a fuzzy gray area.
 

lopoetve

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Unfortunately, the problem here is they are refusing to produce more because they "think crypto will crash" and don't want there to be "too much stock and production capacity lest there be a massive crash and they lose money". It happened before.
It's absolutely not AMD's fault, although they did contribute slightly by not producing any meaningful high end competition for a while. Just like NVIDIA and ammo companies(1000% markup there btw lol), they too don't want to ramp up production and then get boned with a drop in demand. Although being AMD, they probably can't even afford to..
How do you ramp up production? Fab space is tapped out for years now. Can't build a new foundry in any reasonable amount of time. TSMC especially is ~maxed~ on what they can do at the moment.
 

J Macker

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Tariffs. That's about a 25% increase across the board, I believe, which matches the tariff increase. Just takes a bit to trickle in as shipments in progress may not have had the tariff applied, depending on when they passed customs. Not commenting on the other parts, but the current MSRP is because of that at least.

I'm well aware of the news of tariffs. It's been in the news for years. Blame the tariffs all you want. They want us you to believe the price increase is due to tariffs. The reality is, the tariff was signed into law back in 2018 and every GPU manufacturer knew the extensions to the exemptions would end Dec 31, 2020.

So, let's pretend that you are CEO of nVidia, or other large tech company who has a product that is to be released in late 2020. You know you will have to raise prices by 25% effective Jan 1, 2021. So, do you set MSRP at a lower price for 3 months prior to that? Or, do you inflate the initial price so that you make that much more profit for the 3 months prior to the tariff?

Remember, you're the greedy CEO of a big company and you have to report amazing profits to shareholders.....
There's no logical reason to release cards and set a low MSRP before the tariffs. Just add 25% and make more money for 3 months.
 

lopoetve

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I'm well aware of the news of tariffs. It's been in the news for years. Blame the tariffs all you want. They want us you to believe the price increase is due to tariffs. The reality is, the tariff was signed into law back in 2018 and every GPU manufacturer knew the extensions to the exemptions would end Dec 31, 2020.

So, let's pretend that you are CEO of nVidia, or other large tech company who has a product that is to be released in late 2020. You know you will have to raise prices by 25% effective Jan 1, 2021. So, do you set MSRP at a lower price for 3 months prior to that? Or, do you inflate the initial price so that you make that much more profit for the 3 months prior to the tariff?

Remember, you're the greedy CEO of a big company and you have to report amazing profits to shareholders.....
There's no logical reason to release cards and set a low MSRP before the tariffs. Just add 25% and make more money for 3 months.
And then you get to explain why margins dropped, which also affects your stock price. Pricing things isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be - there are a multitude of things that go into MSRP, including market share, futures planning, SEC statements, etc... this is part of what I do for a ~living~, and it's no where NEAR as simple as even I thought it would be before I got into it.

Once you pick a targeted margin (price isn't the goal, margin is) you roll from there - if price has to increase due to tariffs, it increases. If tariffs expire, it decreases. There's a reason you set a margin target - and that information is public in the 10k. If you start with a margin significantly in excess of market average, people complain that you're overly greedy (or nudging towards a monopoly, especially when you don't have significant competition ~at the time~), whereas if you set a margin target too low, shareholders complain that you're not making enough profit.

Nvidia's GAAP Margin was 62.8%; right in line with the IT industry average (call it 60-70%, although it tends towards the lower end of that spectrum). All of this is stuff you can find in their SEC filings.

Accounting is whack.
 

FrgMstr

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Delivered another 6900 XT.

ZZ.jpg
 

Andrew_Carr

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......what?
This is why communism succeeds. There are always plenty of people like this willing to sell everyone else down the river so they can get paid their "fair share". (To be fair, the state of greed & capitalism in today's world is also pretty fucked up).
 

Andrew_Carr

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Unfortunately, the problem here is they are refusing to produce more because they "think crypto will crash" and don't want there to be "too much stock and production capacity lest there be a massive crash and they lose money". It happened before.
It's absolutely not AMD's fault, although they did contribute slightly by not producing any meaningful high end competition for a while. Just like NVIDIA and ammo companies(1000% markup there btw lol), they too don't want to ramp up production and then get boned with a drop in demand. Although being AMD, they probably can't even afford to..

AMD and nVidia are both at the mercy of external suppliers and their availability, so unless TSMC or Samsung have idle capacity there's not much to be done in the short term from a supply standpoint except reducing wastage and inefficiencies. We already know TSMC is fully loaded and is expanding fab space in the future, but we also know that fabs are a multi-billion dollar investment that take years to build, so no business in their right mind would make that investment for an unforeseen and (assumed) temporary increase in demand. As an analogy, if you have a factory working one shift and staying operational, sure you could add second and third shifts to increase production somewhat, but you can't run the machines 30 hours long every day. There's a limit to what you can produce from that resource and from everything we're seeing (shortages of chips industry-wide, multiple large contracts all at once, high demand for AMD products, etc.) it looks like TSMC has reached their limit.

I'm not trying to be an apologist here. AMD sold its fabs to stay in business and that seems to have been a good overall choice for them, but it puts them at the mercy of outside suppliers like TSMC in times like these. TSMC is being pressured by politicians & lobbyists because the auto industry screwed up their demand planning didn't expect demand to return as quickly as it did, so now they're idling factories and losing tons of money because of a lack of chips/foresight. There's also Sony, Apple, etc. all competing with them for fabspace, so if anything, it might be AMD that gets the short end of the stick if TSMC has to screw over any one customer, and that's a risk AMD took when they sold their fabs.

https://www.patentlyapple.com/paten...stomers-including-apple-for-the-a14-chip.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/oth...-tsmc-to-resolve-auto-chip-crunch/ar-BB1dcC4B
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...ues-ps5-demand-may-be-hurting-tsmc-production


This supply issue was addressed during AMD's latest earnings call and you can listen to Lisa Su explain how they're adapting on the webcast here: https://ir.amd.com/news-events/ir-calendar/detail/6612/q4-and-fy-2020-amd-earnings-call
(*Note: I thought the questions were better last earnings call and she got off lightly this time.)
 
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Well I dont mean like extreme regulating, but rather if you work 8 hours, you get bliidy paid for 8 hours! One might argue certain jobs are for smart people, well it doesnt matter if you work with you're head or brain, same pay! Also women should be paid same as well, no matter what your occupation is. It would make much more sense!! Like building blocks of humanity!

You mates would be very glad if it were this way! You just haven't tried it! Everything that's happning is bloody pants!! A lot would be fixed with my proposition.

And beige is fine, noctua fans are beige and their fine!

Even the Soviet Union wasn't same pay for all regardless of job or skill level. You make no sense sir or madam.
 

Andrew_Carr

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Well I dont mean like extreme regulating, but rather if you work 8 hours, you get bliidy paid for 8 hours! One might argue certain jobs are for smart people, well it doesnt matter if you work with you're head or brain, same pay! Also women should be paid same as well, no matter what your occupation is. It would make much more sense!! Like building blocks of humanity!

You mates would be very glad if it were this way! You just haven't tried it! Everything that's happning is bloody pants!! A lot would be fixed with my proposition.

And beige is fine, noctua fans are beige and their fine!

We're really getting off-topic here, but you get paid what you're worth and what you accept. I think we all know incompetent people that are well-paid because they're good at negotiating and interviewing and we also know plenty of people that are very competent but accept terrible salaries and contracts because they're bad at negotiating and interviewing.
 
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