EVE, Sins or Gal.Civ II?

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SAW

[H]ard|Gawd
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EVE, Sins or Galatic Civilizations II?

Its been a thought rambling in my head for quite some time now. Ive read many MANY threads about the 3 games but, to an extent, the games just seemed daunting....perhaps thats an understatement, perplexing maybe? I dunno. If there's a game out there that makes you go "Hmmm", it would be these 3.

Ive come to a few simple conclusions about them though, based solely on reviews from game sites, posts here at the [H] as well as videos made by players posted on YouTube.

Galatics Civ. II = The basics of this kind of game genre. Its the oldest of the 3 (though does have expansions) and from a purely graphical point of view, shows its age. To make a game analogy of it...It would be the AoE series based in space but with a dump truck load of more things to do while you play. As the 2 games come from the same era, you can understand why/how I came to that analogy. To put it another way, one might say Gal. Civ. II is the Elementry School of space RTS games (of these 3 anyways).

Sins of a Solar Empire = The Jounior High School of the 3 games. Though its the newest kid on the block with spectacular graphics, the gameplay remains within the "basics" side of the scale. It is a great deal more complex than Gal. Civ. II (which has an age rating at 10+), this games age rating I would put at 17+ (16 if youve learned anything at all about economics). I shy away at saying its "dumbed down" because it totally is not the case. The only reason I say its still within the "basics" side of the scale is because its more geared to those who want a smaller learning curve and get in and play. That is, by no means, a put down to the game whatsoever, just a point of view im trying to convey from thought to typed word. As a whole, the game looks DAMN GOOD and more than once have I been one click away from downloading the demo.

EVE Online = That smart ass kid who skipped High School altogether and went straight to College. The dump truck from my Gal. Civ. analogy would be the size of a small city, comparatively speaking. Again, from a graphical point of view, EVE is SPECTACULAR!!! Lighting and shading were done with the precision of a surgeon and the detail was done by the devil himself. EVE is created whereas Sins YOU create (to an extent). EVE is alternate reality in just about every way seemingly possible. You want complex, EVE will shatter the word. WoW is just a pimple on the butt of EVE as far as "time sink" is considered. Upgrades to certain things can and will take well over a month (thats real time folks) to upgrade. However, on EVE's behalf, they have considered this monstrosity that WoW created and MADE IT BENEFICIAL and doable to the common player who has a full time job and family (some, 2 or 3 jobs such as myself) where time is as valuable as money itself. If an upgrade takes a week to complete, you could log out, go on vacation for that week, return, log back in and your upgrade is complete. Mind numbing click fest of WoW does not exist in EVE and thats a DAMN GOOD THING. But, comparing WoW and EVE.....pffffftttt. Its an embarassment and I will speak no more of it.

RISK...a simple 4 letter word for a 3 letter game but it describes the game well I think and gives the game more meaning. I believe risk is something 99% of todays games lack. We take a risk everyday we walk out our doors (though, usually not thinking about it) and its risk that makes things worthwhile when you accomplish the challenge.

Take a gander at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9oAGnK9CU&feature=related I think it sums up "RISK" pretty good.

Im tired of all the zombie shoot me up WWII this and that as well as all the WoW wannabes that have come out. I need something different....TOTALLY different. My conclusion from the 3 games is that Im going to take the 14 day trial with EVE and start my download as soon as I finish this thread.

Though there are many threads on EVE and Sins already....Id like a fresh point of view from the [H] crowd on these 2 games. Im considering downloading both for a more indepth comparison.

What is YOUR opinion that makes EVE such a good game? Sins? Why would you choose one over the other?
 
need cliffs.

As you said all three are great games. All require dedication of time to complete worthwhile sessions.
Eve is based on time to complete skills, so the only way to advance skill wise is to keep your subscription active long enough to acquire them.

Sins and GALII can take forever to beat a large campaign, but at least you have the option of saving and going back. They arent perpetual as Eve is. Honestly if you arent sure about taking on an MMORPG id just scratch eve from the list. That being said, i have an active Eve subscription and like the game. But for my friday/saturday night gaming sessions id rather fire up a GAL2 or Sins scenario and play it into the night. Sins just came out with their micro expansion which may make it tops on my list atm, but GAL2 is awesome as well, especially if you were a fan of Master of Orion Series.



Im a big fan of all 3 games, and own all three. I know if i had to choose one, it wouldnt be Eve ultimately just due to the MMORPG nature of it. But it would be very difficult to choose between Sins and GalCivII
 
Yeah, the MMORPG aspect of the game is what has kept me from trying it out all these years. Played many of them in the past and in the end when I look back on them, I cant help but to think of all the time I spent/wasted all for nothing really. They never gave me that feeling of accomplishment and just when I thought I had something cool or learned a new skill, it would turn out to be nothing more than the same I already had since things, in a word, level up with ya.

I didnt just start looking into these 3 games. Ive been observing them for quite some time. Assessing whats out there now, I think I would enjoy any one of these games.

The subscription part of EVE is questionable. I can understand the games highly complex and see where it would need DEVS constant attention, so in those regards I see the monthly fee to be required. On the other hand, I cant help but to wonder if the reason why skills take so long is to keep me paying month after month. Im sure, to a degree, it does have some/part to do with it, but the question is, is it worth it? I dunno yet.

The download was easy and took 37minutes @ 620kbps. I downloaded the premium graphics (who wouldnt).

Sins is about half the size to download. The one thing that peeks my interest is exactly what you said...you can run a campaign, save and go back when you want to. Since im not really into games that you need to join up in a clan, Sins kinda fit the bill. I can go at it myself and not have others depending on me to log in and help them (as I mentioned, my schedual is a hell sometimes). Sins is more kind to my style of gameplay.

Why I chose EVE over Sins to play first?? Simply because I wanted to see the full spectrum of the game genre itself. EVE just seemed to peek my interest more for some reason I can not explain.
 
I won't repeat the stuff I wrote about EVE in the other threads, just thought to add this really quick:

SAW said:
However, on EVE's behalf, they have considered this monstrosity that WoW created and MADE IT BENEFICIAL and doable to the common player who has a full time job and family
Click to expand...

The timeline is off, EVE was released about a year before WoW came along.

SAW said:
The subscription part of EVE is questionable. I can understand the games highly complex and see where it would need DEVS constant attention, so in those regards I see the monthly fee to be required. On the other hand, I cant help but to wonder if the reason why skills take so long is to keep me paying month after month. Im sure, to a degree, it does have some/part to do with it, but the question is, is it worth it? I dunno yet.
Click to expand...

Eh?
Not sure which other MMO that doesn't have a subscription fee you are comparing EVE to, but subscriptions are the norm in MMOs, not the exception.

EVE delivers for the subscription. They are releasing one expansion per year at no additional charge, they are making constant upgrades to the hardware the runs the cluster (google for the price of RAMSAN and you know what your cash pays for), and gigantic upgrades in the underlying infrastructure (both hardware and software) have been made over the years. The flashy graphics you see today weren't always there, all this stuff sucks up resources, and that's what your sub pays for.
 
Thuleman said:
I won't repeat the stuff I wrote about EVE in the other threads, just thought to add this really quick:



The timeline is off, EVE was released about a year before WoW came along.



Eh?
Not sure which other MMO that doesn't have a subscription fee you are comparing EVE to, but subscriptions are the norm in MMOs, not the exception.

EVE delivers for the subscription. They are releasing one expansion per year at no additional charge, they are making constant upgrades to the hardware the runs the cluster (google for the price of RAMSAN and you know what your cash pays for), and gigantic upgrades in the underlying infrastructure (both hardware and software) have been made over the years. The flashy graphics you see today weren't always there, all this stuff sucks up resources, and that's what your sub pays for.
Click to expand...

For the timeline part...WoW should have taken notes of how EVE does things...from my point of view, EVE did it the way it was meant to be done.

EVE delivers for the subscription
Click to expand...
This is kinda where I was headed with what I was saying. It does appear to be worth the monthly fee, but since my experience of the game is from writeups and videos, I couldnt make a full assumption on that fact.

Im looking forward to tonight after work when I can get the game installed and start with the tuts.
 
There's another benefit EVE has. It's legit to convert RL cash to in-game currency at a market rate.
The way this works is that a player buys a Game Time Card (GTC) for real world cash. CCP provides a sanctioned secure method to sell that GTC to another player in-game for in-game currency.

The seller can set the price of his GTC to be whatever, and while the price for a 30-day GTC fluctuates, it's usually somewhere between 280 and 320 million ISK. I have been playing EVE for a long time, and for me it's easy to make 300 million ISK in game without much effort at all, basically with only minutes of time invested. The result is that I haven't paid RL cash for my game time ever since CCP legitimized selling GTC for ISK.
 
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

Although I downloaded the game a few days ago, I have not launched it yet. When I got home from work that night, I decided I needed to read up some more about the game mechanics, races etc. etc. etc...

IM STILL READING STUFF about this game!!!!! Every page I start to read has numerous links to other pages and then those pages have links to still other pages and then more and more and MORE!!!!

Im at a point now that I dont know if what im reading is to be applied to how to play the game or if its just background information.

Overwhelmed doesnt even begin to explain how Im feeling so far and I havent even begun to play yet....Extremely interesting stuff though.

I was reading about Clones last night and Ive got to say, the people who developed this game are some smart people. They didnt just slap this game together, thats for certain. Hell, I bet it took years just to do all the writeups. Facinating knowledge. If I didnt know I was reading a game manual (of sorts), Id swear I was reading some sort of medical journal.

And then, I was reading about interstellar communications and how different particals within the quantum physics take part in how communication is made. FTL communications. It took me 3 pages of reading before I even figured out what FTL stood for, but I finally did (Faster Than Light). Again.....EXTREMELY intriguing writeups about this game.

INSURANCE.....LMAO!!! I had no idea. An alternate reality this game totally is. Not to mention there are in game bills that have to be paid...OMFG!!!! As if real life isnt fuked up enough with all the bills I have stacked up and now, trying to get into a game which has it as well. Shit o Mighty.....yet, the bug has bitten me and injected me with the NEED to give it a try regardless of those things.

Overwhelmed.....pffffftt. Id have to say MEGA-OVERWHELMED with the deepness this game is......A-Mazing!!!!
 
Wasn't Aprocrypha released today?
I've been "researching" EVE, for like 3 weeks now.... The expansion has me excited. Supposedly they've made it easier for new players to get into the universe. I'm not sure I'm ready to jump in yet, but it has definitely got my interest more than any other game right now
 
Galciv 2 is turn based single player game very different from the other two games. So if you like that style of game then it is worth it to buy it and all the expansions for it. I liked it more than i like sins.
 
Thuleman said:
The seller can set the price of his GTC to be whatever, and while the price for a 30-day GTC fluctuates, it's usually somewhere between 280 and 320 million ISK. I have been playing EVE for a long time, and for me it's easy to make 300 million ISK in game without much effort at all, basically with only minutes of time invested. The result is that I haven't paid RL cash for my game time ever since CCP legitimized selling GTC for ISK.
Click to expand...

How much experiance do I need to get to this point in the universe?
Is making ISK something you learn easily, or is it something you just pick up after playing the game for a long time?

I'm still confused at the complexity of this game, I just want to get on have fun, and make money to pay for the sub. At first, anyway.... We'll see how deep the rabbit hole goes from there...
 
I've been playing EVE Online less than a week, playing WoW since March of '05 kinda gave me an inkling of what an in depth MMO is. I will tell you what, although the learning curve is steeper than WoW, (a vast understatement with which the description of the scale of which would also be a vast understatement) it is very approachable by anyone with a level 80 toon - learning the environment and getting around is a few quests - big whoop.

The rest of the learning is where the MMO comes in - I found a corp that likes teaching folks who want to learn, I have started being a productive member of the corp. I can explore, grind and contribute right along with other corp members - COSMOS Faction grind last night with a trip into .4 space, Corp mining run tonight, Lots of folks looking to do stuff, I'm not just sitting in Dalaran looking to run the daily heroic or wintergrasp.

I still have one WoW account (closed my second one yesterday) but I'm thinking that EVE is the experience I was looking for with an MMO.

If you want MMO immersion this is THE game.
 
RagingSamster said:
If you want MMO immersion this is THE game.
Click to expand...

Yeap, Id have to agree that EVE should be the literal term when you look up what an MMO is.

When I start to play (perhaps tonight), im not going to try to get into any corps. at first. Maybe wont even try thru the whole 2 week trial. Im going to focus on what to do, what it takes to cycle thru the games interior mechanics by doing the "SAFE" missions first.

ATM though, I still havent decided if further reading should be done or if I should just dive right on into the cold water of EVE and let myself get used to it.

I still cant get over the VASTness of this game. Its just freaking HUGE....HUGE!!!
 
EVE is the best game ever made, IMO. I've been playing it every day going on 2 years and I'm not even close to being bored yet.

The best part of the game is small gang PVP, IMO. Get yourself into a small PVP corp down to road and you'll really see the game shine.

Yes, it's incredibly complex and you'll learn, and you'll continue to learn, for a long, long time.

I have 2 PVP chars (had 3) and 1 industry char/exploration alt, so I really get to experience a large part of the game, but there's so much more. There really is so much more, it's just not funny :)
 
I've been playing for a few years now and it has damn near ruined me for any other games :D.

A few things worth noting are;

The backstories are all pretty much void-fill. Basically there to get you used to the mechanics and hold your hand until you get into a player run corp with 'real' goals. That is not to say there is nothing to do unless you join a corp, but you will get bored pretty quickly doing the same handful of level 4 missions over and over. There are diversions like exploration, production and mining but when you get right down to the bottom line, the top end of those professions are tied into 0.0 which means a corp and an alliance. Trading and ninja salvaging are only exceptions I can think of offhand.

The true story(lines) of eve is what the player run corps/alliances do. Meaning the story arcs pumped out by the devs generally do not matter one way or another to most players because there is minimal if any impact on their game experience.

No race is better, overall, than any other. Each race has a ship that is the best for a certain circumstance or role but the beauty is you can cross train outside your race and fly any ship in the game.

You will lose ships, fittings and your pod so make sure your death clone is up to date and t1 ships are insured :)

Consider prioritizing your learning skills just to get them out of the way within the first few months. Some people suggest doing nothing but learnings till they are 4/4 or 5/4 but really, you need other skills early on to have any fun. Save the pure training paths for your alts if you are still playing in 6 months or a year.
 
LeviathanZERO said:
How much experiance do I need to get to this point in the universe?
Is making ISK something you learn easily, or is it something you just pick up after playing the game for a long time?
Click to expand...
It's tough to answer this question.
I know people who after years of playing still have trouble to come up with enough cash to replace their losses. In fact, I would say most people don't have the determination it takes to get to a point where you don't need to worry about ISK.

There's a limited number of ways to gain ISK, simplified these are:
- killing NPCs for bounty and loot
- killing other players for loot
- mining
- manufacturing
- invention
- research agents
- trading (reselling)
- scamming
- selling GTCs for ISK
- cybering (if you are female, or are kinky enough to use a voice changer)

Just like in real life, you need to diversify your income streams.
The way I got to where I am is by asking myself: "Is this ISK gaining activity worth my time?", and if not, I would research other ways to make ISK.

Today my main ISK income results from trading (reselling), with additional income streams from manufacturing and research agents.

I would estimate that someone who is dedicated and not inept could learn enough about the game to go from the starter 5,000 ISK to 300 million ISK profit per month in about 3-4 months without any outside help. However, during the learning phase, and considering the low cash on hand, one would need to spend some time making profit. This was true when I started out as well.

These days I have optimized my operations such that I need to spend very little time in game to make enough cash to cover my expenses. I would estimate that it took me about a year to get to a point where I don't spend much time to pay for what used to be 4 accounts and are now only 3 accounts. I tend to buy 60-day GTCs, so I need to come up with roughly 1.6 billion every 60 days in addition to my PvP losses. I have no trouble doing that with approximately 20 billion invested in the market.

It's a lot more time consuming to make 300 mil profit per month if all you have to do it is 100mil. It's possible, but it will take a lot of in-game work.

There are many items in game that can easily be resold for 300-500% profit. However, the number game is worthless because economy of scale applies. While you can resell 10 items per week at 500% profit, you couldn't resell 100 of those items because there just isn't enough demand for them, and if there is demand, then someone else is likely working the same item and the profits are not as great, etc. etc.

If you have time to spare, then you can just shoot NPCs in 0.0 space. A relative noob should be able to get approximately 10mil per hour, so that's 30 hours spend "ratting" to pay for your subscription. From where I am looking it makes no sense to do that. Just get a job flipping burgers for $5/hour and you will make $150 during the same 30 hours, you will pay $15 for your subscription, and will still be $135 ahead.
 
For making ISK in EvE:

Running missions is a great way to earn money quickly. Mining could work if you enjoy that kind of thing (but, really, its boring if you aren't tabbing out/doing something else at the same time). Or, you can move to low sec and become a pirate: lock down other player's ships and demand a ransom; once they pay up, you can just go ahead and blow them up anyway or be an "honorable" pirate and let them go. Also: learn aggression and kill right rules, and pay attention to the transactions you're making. Scamming is authorized by CCP as a valid way to play the game. EvE is basically real life, except in spaceships with lasers; complex and deep, difficult but worth it.
 
I really wish I could grasp this whole sell/buy concept. Iv been playing for over a year doing missions/ratting and I barely have enough money to start buying tech 2 ships to pvp with.

I know one of the reasons I simply cant be a trader. Patience, I have little to none for that sort of thing. I like to see results quickly. I do wish somebody could really explain to me with examples of what items to sell and where. Maybe if I understood it I could tolerate it.
 
WarriorX, no worries man, you are not alone, in fact I'd say that the overwhelming majority of players looks at it the same way you do, which makes profits in trading possible. If everyone would do trading, then it wouldn't be worth doing. ;)

Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on from where you are looking at it), trades are not static. The market environment is such that a trade that may have been profitable for some time is no longer profitable as someone else has "encroached" on "your" market.

Over time traders also move on as some trades, while still profitable, are simply not worth their time. For example, as you gain more capital, you will lose the desire to run a trade that will net you 25 mil, because that's just not enough profit to spend the time on it.

Still, let's start small..., Thuleman's Rules of Aquisition:
#1 No one ever went broke making a profit.
#2 Knowledge equals profit. (stolen from the Ferengi)
#3 Never underestimate the price paid for convenience.

Rule #1 is essential. Most traders fail because they are simply too greedy and have no patience. The early days of trading are the hard days, just like in a RL business. You work hard, long hours, you suffer setbacks, but you nourish your business like a frail flower, you protect it and you care for it without that you get any rewards at all. What keeps you going is the knowledge that you are laying the foundation for your financial success, and faith (the non-religious kind) in your own abilities to make it in the market.

If you start trading without the rock solid belief that you can make it, you will fail, simple as that.

Anyway, back to Rule #1. Profit is good, and as cool as the "greed is good" saying sounds, in reality (or virtual reality) that only goes so far. In the early days you are MUCH better off to work with your cash rather than have it sit there.

I don't care if I put a few billion into some items that will take me months to sell at a profit, I have all the time in the world. You don't. You need cash, here's a simple way to look at it.

I invest 1 million into an item that I mark up 150%, it sells for 2.5 million after 3 weeks.
You put 1 million into items, and you sell them at 25% profit, but it takes you only 3 days to sell your entire inventory. You reinvest the money and keep selling your items at 25% profit. After 3 weeks your capital rose to 3.35 million. While I marked up higher, you made more money. Of course you had to spend more time, but your goal right now isn't to save time, your goal is to build up capital so that you THEN can afford to let your inventory sit there and not spend time on frequent trades.

An item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That's where Rule #3 comes in. Literally every item can be resold for profit to someone. Many players have been playing the game for a long time, and they have massive amounts of ISK. To them it doesn't matter whether they pay 10 million for a 2 million item. For example, I just bought a set of Giant Secure Containers, in hi-sec, for 3.5 million each, simply because they were available at the station I was at, and I didn't want to make the 4 jumps to get them. I would have made the jumps at 10 mil per container, but I would have paid up to 5 mil per container just to get them at the station I was in.

I sell T2 drones at a profit of 1 million per drone in hi-sec, and I sell about 10 per day at the station I am selling them. Every so often I run a freighter to Jita, buy a few hundred of each T2 drone at whatever the current price is, fly them to my spot, slap 1 mil on top of the price I paid, and let them sit there.

However, when you start out that's not an option. For early traders Rule #2 is essential.
You need to figure out what other players need where. Avoid trade hubs, sitting in Jita or lesser hubs is a total waste of time because there will always be someone else whose time is worth less than yours who will "pennyfuck" you all day long. Your goal is to spend as little time as possible on trades.

Places of interest for buying and selling items are:
- Level 4 mission running systems other than Motsu
- Level 4 story-line agent stations (kernite)
- hi-sec ice mining systems (not for very new traders)
- kernite mining systems
- choke-points to low-sec and 0.0
- jump-points to 0.0

Items that I find advisable to begin trading for those who don't have much cash to invest are:
- T1 ammo (excellent profits on that)
- skillbooks (especially trading racial books)
- drones (can be difficult to haul)
- kernite (can be difficult to haul)

I find that trading in T2 modules requires good knowledge of your market and is not advisable for new traders since you really need to have a feel for what's happening and you need to be able to hold long because some producer may come in and just drop a few hundred modules below the price that you paid for your items.

I'll be honest, I made a lot of ISK reselling items in 0.0. I was jumping my own goods, so I didn't have to rely on anyone. Those were good items, and I wasn't an asshole about it either, I marked up 30% above Jita, which was good for me and for my buyers.

I don't currently do 0.0, but I am still making good profits in Hi-Sec only by selling to and buying from mission runners, manufacturing T1 ammo, as well as taking advantage of choke points. There's also good money to be made in Hi-Sec by buying modules and reprocessing them. Many players readily sell their items below mineral value because they don't have the skills to effectively reprocess stuff.
 
Great writeup Thuleman and thanks for the information.

Your whole writeup reminds me of a book I read (and still do read, over and over again). Its a book called The Richest Man In Babylon.

Within its pages, it pretty much says the same things you are saying here. Im glad to see EVE is as diverse in its VR as is real life reality.

In this book (which I DO highly suggest everyone to read at some point in their lives) it discusses the 5 laws of gold and the laws which govern them. Here is a link to, for lack of a better word, a cliff note version of the whole book. Its in PDF form and FREE. Its a very quick read, only 22 pages, the full book is 145pgs. and costs bout 20 bucks (for a hard back copy). Click if interested http://www.privatelessor.co.za/Downloads/rmib.pdf

Just some insight of those 5 laws which is damn near a mirror wording of what Thuleman just wrote...

1.) Gold cometh gladly and in increasing quantity to any man who will put by not less than one-tenth of his earnings to create an estate for his future and that of his family.
2.)Gold laboreth diligently and contentedly for the wise owner who finds for it profiable employment, mulitplying even as the flocks of the field.
3.)gold clingeth to the protection of the cautious owner who invests it under the advice of wise men in its handling.
4.)Gold slippeth away from the man who invests it in businesses or purposes with which he is not familiar or which are not approved by those skilled in its keeping.
5.)Gold flees the man who would force it to impossible earnings or who followeth the advice of tricksters and schemers or who trusts it to his own inexperience and romantic desires in investment.

And as long as we are talking about the acquisition of ISK and my translation of that in the real world. A few good quotes from the same book....

Why should so few men be able to acquire all the gold?" said the King. "Because they know how," replied the Chancellor. "One may not condemn a man for succeeding because he knows how."
Click to expand...

If you have not acquired more than a bare existence in the years.........., it is because you have either failed to learn the laws that govern the building of wealth, or else you do not observe them.
Click to expand...

Seven Cures For a Lean Purse.

1.)Start thy purse to fattening: "For every ten coins thou placest within thy purse take out for use but nine. Thy purse will start to fatten at once and its increasing weight will feel good in thy hand and bring satisfaction to thy soul."

2.)Control thy expenditures: "Budget thy expenses that thou mayest have coins to pay for thy necessities, to pay for thy enjoyments and to gratify thy worthwhile desires without spending more than nine-tenths of thy earnings."

3.)Make thy gold multiply: "Put each coin to laboring that it may reproduce its kind even as flocks of the field and help to bring to thee income, a stream of wealth that shall flow constantly into thy purse."

4.)Guard thy treasures from loss: "Guard thy treasure from loss by investing only where thy principle is safe, where it may be reclaimed if desirable, and where thou will not fail to collect a fair rental. Consult with wise men, Secure the advice of those experienced in the profitable handling of gold. Let their wisdom protect thy treasure from unsafe investments."

5.)Make of thy dwelling a profitable investment: "Own thy own home."

6.)Insure a future income: "Provide for in advance for the needs of thy growing age and the protection of thy family."

7.)Increase thy ability to earn: "Cultivate thy own powers, to study and become wiser, to become more skillful, to act as to respect thyself."

In all my 35 years of life, had I found this knowledge sooner........Oyyyyy. All of this seems to have a direct effect within the game of EVE as well and I plan to utilize its principles as I play. This VR game of EVE, to me, can be a guide to my own misfortunes in RL. Practice makes perfect, right. Might as well have some fun along the way too :)

Sorry if I went too deep into philosophy there, but the mood struck me as I read Thulemans writeup. "seek the advice of those who know" (Thuleman) and they will give it freely, which he did.

Thanks
 
Here's a trade that I very much enjoyed running back in the days; delivering Kernite to 5ZXX-K in Pure Blind.

5ZXX-K is a Level 4 mission runner system with storyline agent. After every 16th mission the player will receive a "storyline" mission. Those are special missions which often are non-combat and always yield a +4 implant. The one in 5ZXX-K (like many others), requires the player to turn in 8,000 units of Kernite.

The implant sells for approximately 13 million (unless you get the charisma one, which runs around 4 mil). Anyway, so if the player has 8,000 Kernite available, then he can turn them in and instantly finish the mission. The gain to the player is: zero time spent, faction increase received, implant received. The pure monetary gain not including opportunity cost savings is 13 million.

One unit of Kernite can be bought for 250 ISK in Jita, and for as low as 220 elsewhere. So the acquisition cost of 8,000 units of Kernite in Jita is 2 million ISK. Kernite has a volume of 1.2m3 per unit, so you need 9,600m3 of cargo space to haul one load to 5ZXX-K.

A Caldari Industrial ship, the Badger Mark II, will be able to haul 8,000 Kernite once you put one or two (depending on skills, you can train up an alt to just barely be able to run this route, that way you don't risk your main character's implants) Expanded Cargohold I modules on it. The ship will cost you 700,000 ISK, the module will cost you some, and maybe you will put some shield modules on it too for giggles.

The bottom line is that for about 3 million ISK you can start making your way to 5ZXX-K. Of course you will have to pass dangerous choke-points, the most notorious Torrinos gate in EC-PBR, and some others. However, the risk can be minimized by having a good set of bookmarks as well as a Tech 1 cloaking device, and if you want to go wild an unskilled alt on a second account (or a trial account!) that can just sit in EC-PBR and scan the Torrinos gate for you.

You can sell your Kernite load for 1,250-1,500 ISK per unit, for a total of 10-12 million. It makes sense for the mission runner to buy it, because they don't have to haul it themselves and they still come out ahead considering the faction standing increase and the potential sell price of the implant.

Of course you will get blown up every now and then. However, for every successful run, you could have three failures and you would still make profit. Back when I did that I would haul large amounts of Kernite to Torrinos on autopilot, deposit them at a station there, and then haul them out to 5ZXX-K during quiet times (D2 used to hold EC-PBR then).

The run is fun, because you never know whether you make it. I made a few friends among those who tried to blow me up back then. If you have good bookmarks and you know what you are doing and how aggression works, your chances are much better than average against random gate campers or roamers. Against an organized camp or gang you have next to no chance unless they want to let you go (which few do).

Also, it may be worth to check 5ZXX-K first and see what the current Kernite situation up there is. Now that there are jump freighters folks may deliver Kernite to 5ZXX-K on a regular basis. I wouldn't jump my freighter into 5ZXX-K because the risk of getting tackled there would be way too large for me, but who knows, some folks are crazy like that.

Anyway, when I still did that, which was a while ago, the Kernite would sell out faster than I could deliver it. REMEMBER: Don't be greedy. Don't run this route non-stop or the locals will be waiting for you, make random deliveries and you will make money. Yes, there is risk running a slow and defenseless hauler into 0.0, if you can't afford to lose a load, don't fly it.
 
I love EVE, I've been playing since the beta. Let me tell you ALOT has changed. I remeber in the beta being filled with excitment when I could afford to upgrade from an ibis to a griffin, took me a week mining in a random back ass part of space mining kernite. Entirely diffrent world back then, hell if you saw a cruser back when the game first started you were in awe and battleships? They were just myths, fairy tales and legends, ships you heard about but never saw.

Now? Everyones flying pimped out Faction Battleships and dreadnoughts, even Titans don't bring me the same awe that a battleship would of in the early days. Sigh, I'm just a jaded old player but I can see how a new player might still have that unjaded magic in his eye, seeing a majestic battleship fly by his screen going "I'll never be able to fly one of those, let alone afford the guns on it!".

Its a great deep game, tough to get the mindset into, for most users/new players they see EVE as a harsh place, without pereverance I can see why many see the game in the way that yahzee saw it when he first reviewed it.

That all being said, EVE is epicly deep and full of many myths, tales and stories, stories of locking down an entire empire("safe") space system for days destroying all the police NPC's that came to destroy them, hell even the DEV's in uber spawned ships couldn't defeat them(In the end they didn't kick the players off the server but they did "teleport" them to random far off area" Good old M00... Theres also the Guiding Hand stoery, a massive hesight of its day (20,000$-30,00$ USD of items stolen another 10k destroyed, 50,000USD(900billion is) in-game player run bank theif, and the recent 100bn bank theif as well.

Alot of stories, its a deep game, but its hard as fuck to master. In leave you with this:

LearningCurve.jpg
 
Just got thru playing thru the tutorial of EVE....Well, 3/4ths anyway, servers went down right when I got to the space station. I had one minute to log off and hadnt learned how to yet, LOL. Luckily, from experience with other games, I clicked the good ol ESC button and found my way out just in time.

I really hate to use this word, as its an all too common acronym for a game which I despise, but WOW is all I can think of atm. Or how bout....HOLY F#%CKING S#%T!!!!! Heh....Very, Completely and TOTALLY AWESOME!!!! I was completely in AWE after creating my character and seeing my Frigate for the first time....sitting there amongst a few HUGE rocks in space. I started to look around and DAMNIT did I feel like a grain of sand on a world thats nothing but a beach.

When I first clicked in space to move my ship, my engines roared up and I practically shed a tear at its beauty and sound. Sure, its just a rookie ship, but its MINE.

I played around with zooming in and out and no matter where I looked, I felt the need to get a screen shot. Off in the distance (a great distance, im sure), I had to actually squint my eyes for the awesomeness of a star was shinning brightly. I have always ALWAYS been a fan of Space its celestrial (sp) objects, wishing and wishing I could afford that $1500 Meade telescope to take a closer look. All that I have seen of this game can fit on the tip of a sewing needle and yet, I am completely overwhelmed by its vast and gorgeous beauty. EVE has captured the colors of space and, for the moment and most probably a great time to come, my heart and soul. WOW. Wayy damn cool.

INgame name is "Krinthe", throw a shout at me some time :)

I am in the Corporation of The Center for Advanced Studies
Location - Cistuvaert V
Constellation - Anwyns
Region - Verge Vendor
Race - Gallente
Bloodline - Gallente
Career - Industry
Specialization - Prospecting (was going to take Engineering, but read I can easily get to that point later with the ISK I earn from Prospecting/Mining.

Charisma - 8
Intel - 8+2+2
Memory - 9+2+4
Perception - 8
Willpower - 6

Tomorrow night cant come quick enough.....
 
SAW said:
Tomorrow night cant come quick enough.....
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Oh, I'm sure you will be on much sooner than that. Sucky thing about first starting is all the short (less than a day) skill training. You simply lack skills that you can train for more than a day or two.
 
SAW said:
Charisma - 8
Intel - 8+2+2
Memory - 9+2+4
Perception - 8
Willpower - 6
Click to expand...
Charisma is in most cases the least important stat, 8 points in there are not advisable.
Charisma is used in the Leadership branch, in Trading, and in Social. While you undoubtedly will need some skills in some of those (depending on what you are doing in game), the number of skills that you will train which rely on Charisma is very limited in comparison to all other skills.

For a new player to EVE I would recommend picking Caldari, Achura Bloodline, Inventor ancestry, putting 1 point in Perception, two in Memory and Willpower, then picking Military, and Soldier and go from there. However, don't reroll just yet, read further why you could leave everything as is anyway.

Yes, of course there are any number of variations that can be picked, and many other combinations are better for a specific purpose. However, a player new to EVE rarely knows exactly what they are going to do, which skills they will train when, which skills they won't train at all, etc. The above setup provides a good all around character that can be expanded on without having been shafted in any one area. Yes, Charisma is low, if you plan to max out all of the trading skills, then the above isn't the right choice, but for everything else (except fleet booster) the above is a good choice for those who don't know what they end up doing.

High values in Memory and Intelligence are good if you can make an effort to limit your Spaceship Command and Gunnery/Missile skills to a narrow set. For example, rather than cross-training everything, you say to yourself that you will predominantly fly "insert ship class here", and then you learn those skills and supporting weapon skills only, rather than training for all ships and all weapon types.

Memory and Intelligence is certainly used in a lot of branches as the primary stat, and having high values there will make learning quicker, so I wouldn't say it's a bad choice, it's a great choice, it's just usually not one made by new players as they are often not aware of the implications to Spaceship Command and weapon skills.

Of course no matter what the attributes, you will always be able to learn all skills anyway, and with the release of the new expansion you will be able to redistribute your 5 points every so often, so conceivably you will be able to raise your Willpower and Perception when the time comes to train those skills.
 
I have to agree that Eve is one of the best out there. I've been intimidated by the fact its an MMORPG, and I rarely understand what I need to do until it's too late, but I'll be damned if this game isn't fun. I've finally found that one game that cannot be beat, and keeps me interested.

I'm 8 days into the 14 day trial, and I talked a friend into playing as well. I just helped him warp to my system and we're basically learning things together while staying in hi-sec area's. No corp yet, but I might just make one at some point to see how to make one and what it can do.

There's lots of guides, tutorials, and apps out there for this game, which just amazes me how much time people put in outside of the game world. It really is a whole new world.

If anyone is interested in noobing it up as a Caldari, We're in Lonetrek hanging out in and around Jouvulen.
 
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Thanks for that write up Thuleman. Do you have the trade skills at a high level or are they not really necessary. Also are there skills that allow me to sell items from anywhere in the region because having to go to each station is tedious?
 
Hey Direwolf, is Hard corp still alive or did everyone retire?
 
Sins is the best game I have played in a long time and its not as "simple" as you think
 
WarriorX said:
Thanks for that write up Thuleman. Do you have the trade skills at a high level or are they not really necessary. Also are there skills that allow me to sell items from anywhere in the region because having to go to each station is tedious?
Click to expand...
To me trading is an all of nothing sort of thing, I can't half-ass it. When I thought about starting to trade (about a year after I first started playing EVE), I committed to having one extra account that houses the trading characters.

I put close to 5 million SP into Trade on one of the characters on that account.
Rank 5 in: Accounting, Broker Relations, Daytrading, Margin Trading, Retail, Trade, and Wholesale
Rank 4 in: Contracting, Marketing, Procurement, Tycoon, Visibility
Rank 1 in: Corporation Contracting

That allows me to have 273 market orders (buy and sell combined), and I am usually within a few orders of being maxxed out on them.

You can remotely buy items anywhere in the region, no additional skills are needed to instantly buy something. If you want to place remote buy orders, you will need the Procurement skill, which also requires some levels in Visibility so you can set a buy range, although there is no point in raising Visibility to 5. To place remote sell orders you will need the Marketing skill. Daytrading comes in handy to modify orders. You technically don't need that skill as you can work around it by just canceling orders and creating new ones, but you will lose the broker fee in doing so.
 
Direwolf20 said:
I will send you a message tonight -- Ingame I'm Tyymm ;).
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Sorry bro...wasnt able to make it tonight. Thought I had the day off, then dispatch called me up at 8am this moreing "Oh im so sorry, i FORGOT to call you yesterday to tell you you had a $405 install today". Grrrrrrr. And it was downtown too (Houston), took me over an hour to drive there in traffic. Didnt get home till 1am and just finished eating...Im whooped. I usually get up at 5am to go to my installs, not arrive at 10am....that killed my whole day. And I have to get up at 5am again tomorrow....I mean today in like 3 hours to turn in my payroll, so she actually screwed me out of 2 days...gahhh..

Thuleman said:
Charisma is in most cases the least important stat, 8 points in there are not advisable.
Charisma is used in the Leadership branch, in Trading, and in Social. While you undoubtedly will need some skills in some of those (depending on what you are doing in game), the number of skills that you will train which rely on Charisma is very limited in comparison to all other skills.

For a new player to EVE I would recommend picking Caldari, Achura Bloodline, Inventor ancestry, putting 1 point in Perception, two in Memory and Willpower, then picking Military, and Soldier and go from there. However, don't reroll just yet, read further why you could leave everything as is anyway.

Yes, of course there are any number of variations that can be picked, and many other combinations are better for a specific purpose. However, a player new to EVE rarely knows exactly what they are going to do, which skills they will train when, which skills they won't train at all, etc. The above setup provides a good all around character that can be expanded on without having been shafted in any one area. Yes, Charisma is low, if you plan to max out all of the trading skills, then the above isn't the right choice, but for everything else (except fleet booster) the above is a good choice for those who don't know what they end up doing.

High values in Memory and Intelligence are good if you can make an effort to limit your Spaceship Command and Gunnery/Missile skills to a narrow set. For example, rather than cross-training everything, you say to yourself that you will predominantly fly "insert ship class here", and then you learn those skills and supporting weapon skills only, rather than training for all ships and all weapon types.

Memory and Intelligence is certainly used in a lot of branches as the primary stat, and having high values there will make learning quicker, so I wouldn't say it's a bad choice, it's a great choice, it's just usually not one made by new players as they are often not aware of the implications to Spaceship Command and weapon skills.

Of course no matter what the attributes, you will always be able to learn all skills anyway, and with the release of the new expansion you will be able to redistribute your 5 points every so often, so conceivably you will be able to raise your Willpower and Perception when the time comes to train those skills.
Click to expand...

That 8 charisma I had nothing to do with, didnt sink a single point into it...just worked out that way with all the other things I chose I guess, heh.

CannonDub said:
Sins is the best game I have played in a long time and its not as "simple" as you think
Click to expand...

Did I say simple? Im too tired to check...If iI did, Im certain I didnt mean simple "simple" in the literay way....Im sure I meant it in comparison to EVE that Sins was an easier game to navigate thru...menus and such. Peace bro....I meant no offense by it. I like Sins and will proabaly play it eventually too :)
 
SAW said:
Did I say simple? Im too tired to check...If iI did, Im certain I didnt mean simple "simple" in the literay way....Im sure I meant it in comparison to EVE that Sins was an easier game to navigate thru...menus and such. Peace bro....I meant no offense by it. I like Sins and will proabaly play it eventually too :)
Click to expand...

Heh, you're right. You never said the word simple. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth (or words in your text? :confused:).
 
Hey Thuleman, just curious, do you ever translate your ingame tactics to making money by trade/stock etc into the real world?

And what does SP mean?
I put close to 5 million SP into Trade on one of the characters on that account.
Click to expand...
 
No problem, I'll be on again tonight ;) just look me up any time. I sent you an in-game mail.

I'm not actually part of the [H] corp. I was for some time, then quit the game for a bit, and when I came back I was no longer in [H]. I joined up with a new group of guys afterwards. Sorry [H] Corp! :)

I've played with the idea of making a trading alt myself. I don't think its right for me though, I don't have the patience or discipline or the right eye for a good deal :).
 
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