Evaluate my overkill SMP project, please.

O

Order

Gawd
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
979
I know this system is total overkill but I don't want it to be wasteful in regards to the utilization of all the components to the best of their ability. One or more of the components aren't released yet which is fine because the project won't be done until around March.

I'm not sure which operating systems I want to use...I know I will need an MS-based one for basic software interoperability. I'm thinking to use Win2k3 Server configured to run as a workstation. I think Solaris 10 will also be used. From everything I've read about it, there is nothing that will prevent some incredible computing possibilities from occurring. (I know Solaris used to suck but read up on 10 if you're interested because it is supposed to be amazing.)

The primary usage of this machine will just basically be what you would expect of an insane enthusiast machine (games, folding, SETI, etc) but it will also function as the head-end of a cluster I'm working on.

Please give me some advice or scold me for improper part selection or whatever. I'm very open to ideas and discussion.
 
let me know when you want to start putting that together...i love doing servers..

btw, the Gigabyte video card you linked to was just reviewed by anantech and only works on Gigabyte based AMD boards right now...Nvidia doesn't allow for MultiGPU cards in a single slot via drivers right now...

it's a waste of money, imho.

dave
 
You know, I just read that myself.

Alas. I'm sure someone else will come out with one that is better. I just don't want to use up all my PCI-E lanes on graphics...gotta drive that storage :).
 
Order said:
I know this system is total overkill but I don't want it to be wasteful in regards to the utilization of all the components to the best of their ability. One or more of the components aren't released yet which is fine because the project won't be done until around March.

I'm not sure which operating systems I want to use...I know I will need an MS-based one for basic software interoperability. I'm thinking to use Win2k3 Server configured to run as a workstation. I think Solaris 10 will also be used. From everything I've read about it, there is nothing that will prevent some incredible computing possibilities from occurring. (I know Solaris used to suck but read up on 10 if you're interested because it is supposed to be amazing.)

The primary usage of this machine will just basically be what you would expect of an insane enthusiast machine (games, folding, SETI, etc) but it will also function as the head-end of a cluster I'm working on.

Please give me some advice or scold me for improper part selection or whatever. I'm very open to ideas and discussion.
Click to expand...



The board you mention is the S2895.. Last I knew, it's not shipping yet.. Having just spoken to tyan techs YESTERDAY, I can say I *think* my info is up to date..

But.. other than that.. -- GREAT board choice.. It's what I'm getting when I can buy it..

I'm considering a FIREGLV7100 [unless you are doing rendering, you don't need dual opterons and 8 gigs.. so get a rendering card, not a video gaming card..]

I don't think you need 1 gb cache memory for your drive array.. MAJOR overkill, completely unneeded overkill.

Remember.. the drives themselves all have like 16mb cache anyhow.. they're almost never going to hit the cache on that card.

Also.. those other three slots on that board are pci-X not pci-E :)


Additionally Solaris X is gonna be FREE.


As for the cost breakdown

I anticipate the board itself is gonna run you ~$300 to $350

Opteron 250x2 = $1800 (2100 so far)

1 Gb Corsair PC3200 ddr + ecc = 265 .. * 8 = $2,120 ($4220 ....)

That gigabyte board won't work for you, so.. lets say you get the v5100 (instead of the v7100) == $600 [$4,820]

LSI-Logic PCI-E SAS RAID = Since you won't be sli'ing it, that's ok.. - You'll never be sli'ing it.. -- I personally would recommend a pci-X card (since you've got 3 slots of them)

I've seen it quoted at 750 euros.. so.. that's $1,000 american give or take.
(with no memory)
So.. add another 1 gb of ram (assuming it can use the same type the board itself is using . and you are at $1250 for that board (6070 and counting)
Also.. that card only supports 30 devices...

16x 18gb 15k rpm drives figure 250 a drive ..= $4,000 [$10,070 ...]
another 16 drives+some controller you don't list.. figure another 4 grand [$14,070]
24 raptors.. $2600
+ You are going to need a controller for that.. I'd say.. two 3ware escalade 9500S-12s
$700 a piece.. $1400 total. == so .. $4000 for the raptors.

1x Broadcom Octal-port GBe NIC == This is just silly -- This card (marvells card too) will cost around 7 grand...

$21,070.

Now.

You have no case
No power supply

Lets see
8 gigs of ram
2 x opteron 250s
a dually board
56 hard drives.

Oh, that'll fit in a lian-li pc70 with a 400watt antec, right?

Figure you are going to need 4 rackmount storage chassis for this

1 3u unit will hold your 16x18 gb drives (~$1000 for the case with a 400w 1+1 psu)
1 3u unit will hold your second set of drives (~$1000 again)
1x 2u units will hold 12 each of your sata drives ~1000 each

$3,000 in your storage array.
(a veritable bargain)

Now.. you're going to need a rackmount chassis for your system itself..
I found a $1000 chassis with a redundant 650watter! with 16 bays in front for the sata.. but take 12 of them for it.. (12 are in the other one).. leaves you 4 more bays.. - this is perfect.. you do 12 internals on the first 3ware card.. and the 12 externals on 2nd 3ware card.

so far I've got you at 25k

You haven't purchased the rack itself, mind you..Nor any screens, or an operating system
Nor cables [32 scsi cables, 24 LONG sata cables] No UPS on this... easily another 5 grand to be spent..

So i think the guy who said $20k-$30k is right.
Even if the broadcom card were $100.. you're still looking at 23Grand..
 
the board is a large eATX model...most cases will not fit it. my channel estimates on the mainboard place the cost somewhere north of the K8W board.


dave
 
Told ya man, 20-30k is about it. A ridiculous amount of money to spend on one machine for an "insane enthusiast" :rolleyes: Comparable to someone spending 5k for a dually server to host a home network consisting of a grand total of 3 computers.
 
Laforge said:
Lets see
8 gigs of ram
2 x opteron 250s
a dually board
56 hard drives.
Click to expand...

No where in his original post did he say that he was getting 56 hard drives it was one of the three options
 
Yes, lol, I should have made it more clear that the various drives were options, one or the other or possibly the other :).

In regards to cases, I'm planning to use 2 rackmount enclosures: one for the system, one for the storage. I might have to go fibre for the storage, I'm not sure.

To the gentleman who said that 1gb of storage cache is overkill: isn't there a way to optimize the array to utilize the cache and the unused MB RAM as well? I could have sworn I have seen numerous architecture-types that allow that...

I really had no idea what the cost of the Octal would be. I am rather out of my element when it comes to networking hardware that lies outside the realm of normality :). Sorry for my ignorance with that one, hehe.
I don't think I will need a rendering card, as it would be overkill (LOL) considering I won't be using it to render anything. A regular run-of-the-mill gamer card will suffice.

Regarding cost: I'm still rather sure I can get the aforementioned components for under ten-thousand. I'm not getting all new components...I'll take the used ones when I can for things like RAM, the Opterons, and the 3d card.

Thanks for the feedback though, everyone. I'm really hoping to use you guys/girls for more info as the project progresses. Keep it coming! :)
 
MustangWorld said:
No where in his original post did he say that he was getting 56 hard drives it was one of the three options
Click to expand...


I guess I never saw the "or"
 
Order said:
I don't think I will need a rendering card, as it would be overkill (LOL) considering I won't be using it to render anything. A regular run-of-the-mill gamer card will suffice.
Click to expand...

Then you don't need 8 GIGS of ram or DUAL OPTERON 250's if you want a "gaming" system

Gamers don't need this system...

an FX-55 is MUCH smarter...

Regarding cost: I'm still rather sure I can get the aforementioned components for under ten-thousand. I'm not getting all new components...I'll take the used ones when I can for things like RAM, the Opterons, and the 3d card.
Click to expand...
So.. you're going to get some used opteron 250s?
What did the "user" upgrade to.. non existent 254s?

Nobody is selling "used" 250s

I doubt highly you are going to see any "used" pc3200 1 gig ecc's either..

To the gentleman who said that 1gb of storage cache is overkill: isn't there a way to optimize the array to utilize the cache and the unused MB RAM as well? I could have sworn I have seen numerous architecture-types that allow that...
Click to expand...
Yes, there is actually a way to do that, via some really funky zcr technology..
but .. I mean, if you are determined to have 1 gig of cache ram for your drive array.. the way you want to do it is preferable... -- cause it's right there on the card, rather than having to run across the bus that already has some other work to do.



Dave Graham said : the board is a large eATX model...most cases will not fit it. my channel estimates on the mainboard place the cost somewhere north of the K8W board.
Click to expand...

And the k8w board is $275...so.. $300 to $350 seems on par ...

the s2895 is targetted as a replacement for the s2875,, not the s2885, as per the tyan rep I spoke to yesterday.. There's another board (i forget the number off the top of my head) that's supposed to be an s2885 replacement....

I want to say it's s2892

Yep..

Thunder K8We [S2895] =
2 x opteron 200s
2 x pci express 16 slots
1 x 133mhz 64 bit pci-x slot
2 x 100 mhz 64 bit pci-x slot
1 x 32 bit pci slot
2 x ide dual channel
2 x sata-ii controllers (4 sata connectors total)
2 x 1394a
1 x ac97
2 x Nvidia Gig-E Lan [screams workstation environment]
SSI-EEB 12" x 13"
no scsi unlike what has been reported - there is a scsi option, that most likely will come out as a board call s2895s or 'K8WE-S'
8 x ddr slots

vs

Thunder K8SE [s2892]
2 x opteron 200s
2 x pci-e x16
2 x 133mhz pci-x
1 x 100mhz pci-x [notice the shift here]
1 x 32 bit pci
1 x Taro so-dimm connector [onboard caching controller for the pci-x 133/64 slots
2 x ide dual channel
2 x sata-ii controllers (4 sata connectors total)
adaptec AIC-7902W SCSI controller
1 x so-dimm equipped sata card [cacheable sata-raid]
2 x BROADCOM gbe Lans [much more "server environment"]
1 x intel 10/100 controller [3 network ports total.. doesn't this say server to you?']
and lastly..
the server clincher..
1 x ati rage xl with 8mb onboard video
and observe the LACK of firewire ports..



Which of these boards do you think is meant for the $250-$350 segment

and which is meant for the $450-$550 segment?

of course.. only time will tell..
but at $450 or so.. I don't think a lot of the s2895s will sell..

I'd much rather have the $200 cheaper s2875.. and be able to stay with agp


Oh.. and since each storage array in my estimate was basically costing 5 grand ...

Take off 10 grand and your still at 15-20K


listen.. the 24 RAPTORS you want are going to cost you $5000 alone.
The OPTERONS are going to cost you 1700..
The case for your rig is going to cost you another grand
and the ram is another 2grand.. I'm not even calculating the video cards, motherboard, operating system ($700 for windows 2003 server) and the cabling assembly you'd need...
or that clustering card [honestly, I'd recommend a myrinet card for ~$2500 that'd work MUCH better for the purposes]

You just aren't going to put together what you list here for 9 grand unless you are getting your equipment off the back of a truck.
 
<really awed voice> holy mary mother of gawd </really awed voice> wtf are you going to USE this thing for?!

that computer would completely pwn the circuitry out of anything i've EVER owned... not to mention heat the house (and my house is 4000 sq. ft.)

i cannot imagine any practical use for an investment such as that except (1) to spend money, (2) to completely pwn any other system out there, or (3) run a MAJOR website.

i daresay that system could run all of [H]ard|Forum during its non-peak hours (but then i don't know what i'm talking about...) not to mention do some jaw-dropping folding points. that thing would be as powerful as holy lightning from Zeus.
 
It isn't a gaming machine.

I said that I didn't need a rendering machine and stated that a gaming card would suffice for the video needs I'll have.
I'm fully aware that I don't "need" 90% of this machine. I have lots of computation-intensive things that I'd like to experiment with in the next year or so which is why I can even begin considering something so extravagant for any reason other than that of an enthusiast. So, with that in mind, I'd just like to know if there are parts that I've stated that would just be wrong in such a setup.
 
Oh, and yes, I have considered using it as a webserver depending on the interest I could pique in local businesses. Then I'd have to get into the whole "dedicated line" debacle that I don't know anything about, though. Hmm.

Current prices from Pricewatch.com:

24x 36gb Raptors: 2520
8gb PC3200 w/ecc: 1600
2x Opteron 250: 1700
PCIe video: 250
2x SATA RAID: 1600

Those are the major components not counting the MB, Case, and PSU, which leaves me at 7670 in January. I am sure that this number will go down by 2-300 by April, leaving me at approx 7400, with the rest left over for the other components...2000 tops.

9400.
:)
 
one cannot help but be curious as to what the devil these "computer intensive" tasks might be that you are thinking of experimenting with...

i cannot imagine anything other than some very specialized fields, such as:
- HIGHLY intensive graphic art (far more so than my father ever does, and he is a professional graphic artist for the epa)
- full-time professional video editing
- VERY large 3-dimensional cad or modeling jobs (by which i mean basically making your own myst-style game, with all the extras)
- systems modelling (which i have a bit of experience with, it *really* eats up those computer cycles
- distributed computing such as folding@home or seti (if you want to be assured of winning some sort of prize...)
- a reality modeling online site such as a MUD
- a VERY large and/or graphics-intensive website (like [H]ard|Forum)

you just don't need that sort of computing power for 99.9% of tasks anymore... i can run coreldraw 9 (a professional graphics program worth nearly $500) perfectly fine on my 1.8ghz celery laptop, and i have turned out some amazing jobs with that...
 
Order said:
Oh, and yes, I have considered using it as a webserver depending on the interest I could pique in local businesses. Then I'd have to get into the whole "dedicated line" debacle that I don't know anything about, though. Hmm.

Current prices from Pricewatch.com:

24x 36gb Raptors: 2520
8gb PC3200 w/ecc: 1600
2x Opteron 250: 1700
PCIe video: 250
2x SATA RAID: 1600

Those are the major components not counting the MB, Case, and PSU, which leaves me at 7670 in January. I am sure that this number will go down by 2-300 by April, leaving me at approx 7400, with the rest left over for the other components...2000 tops.





9400.
:)
Click to expand...

Operating System? Or are you going to pirate windows server?
Cabling? Drive Trays? All that little stuff adds up fast.

I mean.. ~20 long sata cables along could run you $100 alone.
And that gigabyte Card you were looking at isn't $250.

You're also forgetting your "clustering" card .. but then again, Like I said, you'd be better off with a myrinet at around $2500


If you haven't guessed....


<<---- Builds SERVERS as a primary part of his business..
 
LaForge: I'm not doubting your experience or recommendations in any way whatsoever. I'm new to the very high-end as you no doubt have gathered from the few erroneous posts I've made. From what I've seen from this thread is that I will probably be going over my allotted budget for the server itself which I guess is okay because it still is something I am passionate about and want to get done. Worst case scenario is that I have it built and running beautifully but it isn't being used for nearly as much as intended so I'll sell it and more than likely get all my money back.

As far as clustering is concerned, I know how expensive that all is but I'm not really considering that to be part of this particular project because I won't be putting out all the money when that gets started.

But, on that subject, do you think Myrinet is superior to Infiniband or Dolphin Interconnects?
 
frankly, if you're going to be running a lot of SATA drives, take a look at the MultiLane cases from Chenbro. they use infiniband to transfer data (4 channels of SATA on 1 cable) and integrate extremely well with 3ware's Escalade ML cards...

trust me, they work well...

dave
 
Dave: I saw those Chenbro enclosures and thought they were pretty cool. Do you know if they have one that will allow just the drives with an output to another rack enclosure containing the system itself?
 
dunno, actually...i have personally used the RM312 (donated by chenbro to me) and the 8500-12ML 3ware card together and it's flawless...but the backplane is only internal as are the connectors on the 8500-12ML

dave
 
Order said:
But, on that subject, do you think Myrinet is superior to Infiniband or Dolphin Interconnects?
Click to expand...


I think the myrinet's are great. infiniband and dolphins are good too, but.. the myrinets seem like more than enough unless you are looking to become a MAJOR datacenter, then even your "octal gig-e broadcom" won't be sufficient.. :)


On another note.. Can I suggest a "slightly" more realistic SMP system? - and it'll fit in one box, TOO.

tyan S2895 board [figure $350]
Dual Opteron 250s [if that's really what you want] - $1700
8 x 1 GB corsairs [Memory really isn't a place to scrimp here .. Take my word for it.. the $50 you save [per stick] by buying PQI instead of corsair isn't worth the $ to me @ 255 each [2,040]

4 x 74GB Raptors on the ONBOARD S-ata raid configured in RAID 0+1 : Gives you ~140 gb double speed, MIRRORered boot/application drive. $~180 each = $720.

12 x Seagate 200gb's [5 year warranty] ($135 each) in raid 5 will give you ~2.2 TB of space. There is a bit of write overhead here.., but not much :) $ 1620

(The reason I recommend the 74s over the 36.7s is because the 74s are ~180 and the 36.7s are $110.. Better space per $ on the 74s)

Lian LI pc2000V case [or pc2100 if you want a locking door! for $50 more]
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-112-053&depa=1

As you'll see from that case .. it has the following abilities

1) 6 x 5.25" Drive bays. - Put any optical drives you want in the top two bays
put your "boot" raptors [the ones running off the motherboard] in 5.25" -> 3.5" drive trays

2) 12 x 3.5" Drive Bays .. Put the 12 raid 5 drives in there.

3) A double size power supply bay. : You can either go dual power supply (via modding) or buy a full size, REDUDANDT powersupply (say the 650w+650w one i mentioned before, or the 1000w+1000w+500w n+1 model i'm considering [~$600 for the psu..]

This case is $250 or so.

The 9500S-12MI is nice with the infiniband -> sata cables, but, honestly, it's not really necessary, so I recommend the 9500S-12 [~690] that has 12 S-ata ports.

12 sata cables come with it, but I *believe* they are 18", so you may need to get longer cables.


Don't get a gaming card .. I'll say it again . Dual Opterons + gaming cards + 8 gigs ram = Silly. Get yourself a halfway decent 3d GL card..
It isn't a gaming machine.

I said that I didn't need a rendering machine and stated that a gaming card would suffice for the video needs I'll have
Click to expand...

Then just get a $70 pci express card.. if it's not gaming, and not rendering. No need for a $250 card if it's not a gamer machine. and if it *is* a rendering machine, get the rendering card, not the gaming card.

So.. you're at
$350 for board
$1700 for cpus
$2040 for ram [the $400 total is definately worth it.. trust -- Drop yourself to 36 gig raptors if you can't afford this $400]
$720 boot array
$1620 in "work" area array [remember 2+ Terabytes]
$250 case
$600 psu
$700 controller
$700 o/s
$100 in opticals, floppies, keyboards, mice.. etc..
$200 in other miscellaneous

$8980

for a 64 bit, 4.8 ghz, 8 gig, ~2.2+ Terabyte raid'ed system.
Hell of a bargain.. You can save ~$280 by going with 36.7 raptors instead of 74s

You'd still have an uber fast boot/application area. since you'd have 64mb cache on the "C:\" in 4x10,000 rpm drives in raid 0+1 and that 128mb cache on the 9500S-12 is MORE than sufficient to run the 12 x 7200s'.


BTW.. A lot of people don't realize that Opterons need REGISTERED memory....

Registered and ECC are *NOT* the same thing.

You can have
registered ECC
unregistered (unbuffered) ecc
registered non-ecc [rare]
non-registered / non-ecc ["normal"] ram.
 
order did tell me what he's doing... and i am keeping my promise to him that i will not reveal it.

i will say, however, that it is something big. very big indeed.

ask me no questions and i'll tell you no lies... so don't flood my pm box asking me to break my promise, because i will not.

:cool:
 
LaForge: That certainly is a good design you've recommended...I'm not sure what the I/O necessities of the projects will be which is why I am really unsure as to what I need to do in regards to storage. You certainly know what you're talking about though so yours is another design that I'll have to consider. This isn't my first SMP system...I had a dual Athlon MP for a few years that I built and loved to death until I sold it to a school to be their network server so I know what the basic hardware necessities are (ecc/registered, for example). With the primary project in mind, however, I still might have to continue asking what may seem to be really elementary questions regarding some of the basics. For example, I'm worried about oversaturating the bandwidth on the board and bottlenecking the processors by utilizing all the PCI-e lanes at once when/if the system is at full load.

Storage space is honestly not too important to me...my reasons for using so many drives is solely for I/O speed.
 
Order said:
LaForge: That certainly is a good design you've recommended...I'm not sure what the I/O necessities of the projects will be which is why I am really unsure as to what I need to do in regards to storage. You certainly know what you're talking about though so yours is another design that I'll have to consider. This isn't my first SMP system...I had a dual Athlon MP for a few years that I built and loved to death until I sold it to a school to be their network server so I know what the basic hardware necessities are (ecc/registered, for example). With the primary project in mind, however, I still might have to continue asking what may seem to be really elementary questions regarding some of the basics. For example, I'm worried about oversaturating the bandwidth on the board and bottlenecking the processors by utilizing all the PCI-e lanes at once when/if the system is at full load.

Storage space is honestly not too important to me...my reasons for using so many drives is solely for I/O speed.
Click to expand...

Well.. with what I just read in your pm ..

You won't be using all the PCI-e lanes..

Since i'm recommending you a pci-X (seperate bus) controller for the 12-sata's..
You'd only be using 1 pci-e lane.. -- for the video card.
Completely second, x16 lane available to you.

Your project sounds.. suffice it to say, complex, but not impossible. I don't know how the world will embrace it, but it could make a change to computing as we know it, that's for certain.

Since storage isn't an issue, you really don't need the 3ware card and those 12 seagates at ALL..

I'd say just the 4 way sata 74gig raptors (best solution for performance and data integrity) are really all you need..

That or some 8x15K rpm scsi's if you want a bit more xfer speed.. but.. I don't think you're going to get the maximum bandwidth you'd need to test it at "full" speed [remember.. with numa you could get all the way up to 10gigs a second.. -- If that s2895 is numa aware, that is]

The more I think about it.. the more I think you may want to look at the s28*8*5 board that's got an agp slot, and a buttload of pci-X slots [as well as scsi's, sata's, and an onboard video]

That's truly more "server"-ish.

You could even go KQ8S which is 4way opteron [$1300 board though, and $3400 in processors]

Even with SAS you are going to have a bandwidth limitation, honestly.
 
Hmm.

Do you think that storage solution you just mentioned would have more I/Os than previously mentioned configurations? In regards to the PM, this will be coupled via either Myrinet, Infiniband, or Dolphin with an IBM P5.

Can you explain NUMA to me or link me to a good place that talks about it? I haven't found a site that explains it in a way I appreciate.
 
Order said:
Hmm.

Do you think that storage solution you just mentioned would have more I/Os than previously mentioned configurations? In regards to the PM, this will be coupled via either Myrinet, Infiniband, or Dolphin with an IBM P5.

Can you explain NUMA to me or link me to a good place that talks about it? I haven't found a site that explains it in a way I appreciate.
Click to expand...

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=opteronmemory&page=1


GamePC has a good write-up on Numa

Iwill scares me.. They don't know how to count.
* Quad PGA 950-pin ZIF sockets
* One (1) 44-pin IDE Connector

j/k

Well, the io of the sas is probably going to be the fastest...
 
Excellent resource, thanks for the link.

I'd love to do SAS but I'll be god damned if I can find a real answer as to when it will be coming out...
 
wait for nforce 4 professional, it will be announced on monday, it is for dual optys and supports sli with 2 16x slots.
 
I own a business and part of that business deals with the R&D of a new type of compiler architecture to allow interoperability between two types of systems that have not previously been able to communicate at the base level. 2k3 Server will not be the only operating system that I will be using. I'm pretty much set on using Solaris 10 for the major work since I have finally secured an old school Unix guy who has dealt extensively with all *nix, Solaris, AIX, etc, as well as all of their "big iron" uses.

It is not a CounterStrike server.

Stefan: Does that annoucement coincide with the actual release of these boards or just another paper-release to delay the actual unit?
 
I don't understand why you'd need to ask if you've got programmers and OS experts on your team. Sun should probably donate you a workstation if you're doing serious R&D that will benefit their company though.
 
It wouldn't benefit them but that is now kinda good to know...
...and I was asking about the HW because I know lots of people here are more up on hardware designs than the people I will have programming this stuff so I decided to find out.
 
Order said:
I'm worried about oversaturating the bandwidth on the board and bottlenecking the processors by utilizing all the PCI-e lanes at once when/if the system is at full load.

Storage space is honestly not too important to me...my reasons for using so many drives is solely for I/O speed.
Click to expand...

Then I'm guessing this is for encryption/decryption of video/DVD or the creation of a fully cross-platform DRM video system. Or an experiment in pointless fun-ness. Why not just build a supercollider? You might be able to name a new particle after yourself.

You might want to think about RAID 3 or 50 on those drives, if I'm close on my guess.
 
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