EU Says Microsoft Continues Abuse

GJSNeptune

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
12,372
Greetings!I can bring you to life, then.
Outside of USA a Billion is a million millions. Its 1 followed by 12 zeros: 1,000,000,000,000.
NOT 1 followed by 9 zeros: 1,000,000,000.
;)

Math is one of the universal languages. You're full of shit if a billion isn't a billion "outside of the USA."

A billion is a thousand million. Period.
 

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Also, BEFORE anyone tries to turn this into a US versus Europe thing, let me tell you all right now that no one cares about our friends across the pond more than we do!

Just because we don't agree with the EU tactics has absolutely nothing to do with anyone other than the people that make the decisions at the EU.
 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
18,271
Based on what?
Who buys A320s have to buy Typhoons?
Who uses Arianes have to buy Tigers?

Greetings!

Based on market share, and leveraging of product discount when staying the EADS family of products.

Greetings!

And the chart is for net givers and takers.
If you split Germanys value in West Germany and East Germany, the west would be a even greater net giver and the East would probably be a net taker.
Samething for Spain. Regions like Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona would be net givers and regions like Extremadura and Andaluzia would be net takers.

Post edit option is disabled in this part of the forum, right?[/quote

Greetings!

It says NET. You can't split East/West Germany since they are the same country it already is NET. Germany is a NET giver...meaning more goes out than comes in over the entire country.

Greetings!

greetings!
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!
So...you are saying that Germany gives $8,500,000,000,000 a year to the EU (according to the chart and YOUR definition of a billion) even though Germany's total GDP was only 42,781,900 US dollars?
Oops! Guess that was a 1-followed-by-9-zeros billion.
Am curious, from where did you took the image?
Math is one of the universal languages. You're full of shit if a billion isn't a billion "outside of the USA."
Math is a universal language. Words are not.
Billion
As you may have guessed, am not an English native speaker and for me a billion is 1-followed-by-12-zeros.
Based on market share, and leveraging of product discount when staying the EADS family of products.
Didnt know that. Any example you can give?
How did AEDS competitors react?
You can't split East/West Germany since they are the same country it already is NET. Germany is a NET giver...meaning more goes out than comes in over the entire country.
I realised that. Only mentioned the net because of Steves phrase: The other 20 members pay nothing or get subsidies.
They all pay, some receive subsidies, others dont.
The subsidies are given on a region basis; poor regions get them, rich regions dont.
 

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Greetings!Oops! Guess that was a 1-followed-by-9-zeros billion.
Am curious, from where did you took the image?

Greetings!

Yes, it is the ol' "one-followed-by-nine-zeros" billion...and that is my point, you have ONE company giving more than twenty countries combined...doesn't seem right. Redistributing wealth (from the rich to the poor) doesn't go over well in the U.S.
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!
In 2006 they had 53% market share by price and 55% volume. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4619854.stm
That was more than a year ago, before Boeing strong recovery and Airbus delays.
www.leeham.net/filelib/ExcessBaggage.pdf -> Opens PDF

Also, the two companies -and respective governments bodies- are already engaged in the WTO:
- EU accuses U.S. of paying billions in Boeing subsidies
- EU subsidies harm Boeing, U.S. says as WTO considers arguments in aviation dispute

It makes Microsoft case tiny in comparison.

Redistributing wealth (from the rich to the poor) doesn't go over well in the U.S.
Much better than doing it the other way around.
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Yes, it is the ol' "one-followed-by-nine-zeros" billion...and that is my point, you have ONE company giving more than twenty countries combined...doesn't seem right.
You are comparing net values with one contribution of two different kinds of organizations with different objectives.
If you really want to compare states with companies, you would have to compare net values of Microsofts operations in the EU space. The net value of a company can be seen by the profits/losses, no?
So, how much does Microsoft profits/loses by operating in the EU space? Is Microsoft a net giver or a taker?

Also, dont forget some of the 27 member states have lower GDPs than Microsofts profits.
 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
18,271
Greetings!That was more than a year ago, before Boeing strong recovery and Airbus delays.
www.leeham.net/filelib/ExcessBaggage.pdf -> Opens PDF

Also, the two companies -and respective governments bodies- are already engaged in the WTO:
- EU accuses U.S. of paying billions in Boeing subsidies
- EU subsidies harm Boeing, U.S. says as WTO considers arguments in aviation dispute

It makes Microsoft case tiny in comparison.

Much better than doing it the other way around.

And in none of that has the EU gone after EADS...hence my point. They don't go after them because they are a European company in a dominant market psotion.
 

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Greetings!

Much better than doing it the other way around.

The point is, it shouldn't be done at all.

You are comparing net values with one contribution of two different kinds of organizations with different objectives.

I like how you said one "contribution". We don't call that a "contribution" over here. Anyway, thank you for making my point...Microsoft's "contributions" are more than 20 of the member countries combined give to the EU.



O.K., obviously there is no changing your mind, so hopefully, the EU will start fining companies like Intel, IBM, Google, Bank of America and other wealthy U.S. companies so they will have more "contributions" to the EU. That would be good, right?


Greetings!
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!
And in none of that has the EU gone after EADS...hence my point. They don't go after them because they are a European company in a dominant market psotion.
Because EADS is not in a dominat market position.
Boeing/Lockheed offer competitive products to the ones provided by AEDS.

Anyway, WTO organization is already looking into that market practices.

And, if EC only goes after non-european based companies, why were ThyssenKrupp, Schindler and Kone Oyj fined? All of those are european based comapnies.
ThyssenKrupp even got a 50% increase on the fine for repeated misbehaving.
The point is, it shouldn't be done at all.
Its one of the pillars of EU.
Given the drastic wealth differences between EU regions, the richer ones help the poorer ones. The idea is to create a more homogeneous block, without so many regional differences.
Without it, the EU would be just another free trade organization.
Anyway, thank you for making my point...Microsoft's "contributions" are more than 20 of the member countries combined give to the EU.
Nope. Microsoft operates in the EU profitably. Its a net taker.
Although comparing states with companies is a bit strange. They have different objectives.
... EU will start fining companies like Intel, IBM, Google, Bank of America ... That would be good, right?
Not really.
Although, if I remember correctly, Intel was being looked at by AMDs request for anti-competitive behaviour. It might get fined.
The others companies I dont know if they are being investigated at all.
 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
18,271
Greetings!Because EADS is not in a dominat market position.
Boeing/Lockheed offer competitive products to the ones provided by AEDS.

Huh? 53% is a dominate market postion. Even if it is lower than 53% now the EU started busting Microsoft's balls before they cracked 50% so that arguement doesn't wash.

Solaris, Linux, and UNIX vendors all offer competitve products as well.

The EU chooses not to go after EADS because they are a European company. Period.

Anyway, WTO organization is already looking into that market practices.

And the EU isn't because they want EADS to dominate the market even more because they make money off of it. If Microsoft were based in a EU member they would be giving them a slap on the back.
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!
53% is a dominate market postion. Even if it is lower than 53% now ...
The EU chooses not to go after EADS because they are a European company.
Airbus branch, not EADS, was the one that had 53% of the market, it no longer has. A dominant position, in itself, although not desirable, isnt illegal. Only when it is abused.
You still havent showed examples of pricing discounts to leverage buyers into staying in the EADS family.
And the EU isn't because they want EADS to dominate the market even more because they make money off of it. If Microsoft were based in a EU member they would be giving them a slap on the back.
You forget DoJ also disapproved Microsoft conduct.
 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
18,271
Greetings!Airbus branch, not EADS, was the one that had 53% of the market, it no longer has.

EADS is the parent company. Same difference...if you want ot call it Airbu...fine doesn't change the point.

A dominant position, in itself, although not desirable, isnt illegal. Only when it is abused.

Only when it is a European company...when it isn't then it is a problem for the EU.

You still havent showed examples of pricing discounts to leverage buyers into staying in the EADS family.

Pull any of the plane purchase order stories that EADS has securred that involve multi plane discounting (which is almost all).
 

bob

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 13, 2002
Messages
2,971
Greetings!I can bring you to life, then.
Outside of USA a Billion is a million millions. Its 1 followed by 12 zeros: 1,000,000,000,000.
NOT 1 followed by 9 zeros: 1,000,000,000.
;)

I do remember more than US and Britian as countries on this planet.... Although I have not ventured far...In canada or mexico, I do not remember one billion being referred to as 10^12. I would find it hard to beleive that every country other than the US uses 10^12.
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!
Pull any of the plane purchase order stories that EADS has securred that involve multi plane discounting (which is almost all).
Where to look for those?
In Airbus site? Google search? :confused:
The sentencing to prison of former Boeing Chief Financial Officer Michael Sears on Feb. 18 is a "watershed moment" in the outfit's efforts to settle charges of wrongdoing in winning Pentagon contracts, says CEO Harry C. Stonecipher. But does Sears' penalty for illegally recruiting senior Pentagon official Darleen Druyun while she was awarding billions of dollars in Air Force contracts to Boeing put an end to the company's travails?
Although I have not ventured far...In canada or mexico, I do not remember one billion being referred to as 10^12. I would find it hard to beleive that every country other than the US uses 10^12.
Well, after some googling, I respect even more the translators. Its a mess.

Using Google Language Tools to translate billion to other languages and using Wikipedia to find out the numerical value, comes:
Italian - miliardo
Spanish - mil millones - a thousand millions
German - milliarde
Portuguese - bilhão
French - milliard
English - 1.000.000.000

The best explanation I found was this:
How many is a billion?

If you are American, it is undoubtedly 1,000,000,000. This amount is known to traditionally minded British people as `a thousand million', and by some more adventurous ones as a 'milliard', though this word has not made as much headway in English as in some other European languages. A trillion is then 1,000,000,000,000, and so on.
If you are British, on the other hand, a billion may be 1,000,000,000,000 (a million million), following the older convention.
If you are neither British nor American, you can take your pick! (Both systems were invented by the French, but are called 'British' and 'American' for convenience.)
Once the business world and the financial press found themselves discussing `thousand millions' so much, the 'American' system simply became more convenient, despite a certain lack of logical tidiness. (A 'British' trillion is the third power of a million, while the 'American' one is the fourth power of a thousand, and the 'American' system continues out of sync with the arithmetic). It also makes the profits sound bigger! The 'American' system is now standard use in British government publications, and is becoming the norm in many other languages.
 

GJSNeptune

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
12,372
Holy cow, you feel passionately about this billion thing.


What was the topic again? :(
 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
18,271
Greetings!Where to look for those?
In Airbus site? Google search? :confused:

Seriously? Google "Airbus orders" and read the announcements.


Boeings' issues with US military contracts (to whom they are not the only nor the dominant provider) does not have anything to do with the EU (whose purpose was to give europe a way to fight for world economic importance) not going after EADS for their market position like the EU does to american (and other foreign) companies.

Given the point of the EU though it isn't really suprising that they are going after foreign companies in order to generate revenue and protect their holdings but it is rather distasteful and not exactly on the up and up.
 

whrswoldo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 6, 2002
Messages
3,138
Blah blah blah

Greetings!

I showed you an example and you ignored it. The case I referenced has been ongoing for 6 years and the EU has done what? NOTHING. Bringing up another case does not change that fact.
 

impar

n00b
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
53
Greetings!

Well, I intended to stay in this forum but after reading this, I will not bother.

It seems as if HardOCP wants an all-USA membership. In the front page the hint is given to start the european bashing and so it begins in the forum.

On topic, Microsoft was found guilty on both sides of the Atlantic, DoJ and EC still wait for the company to provide adequate inter-operarability documentation for its 2001 and 2004 decisions. EC fined Microsoft and is thinking on fining it again. Dont see a problem here.

Farewell.
 

GJSNeptune

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
12,372
Farewell!!!


As if other countries aren't bashing us. The EU is picking on US. Notice the pun. ;)
 

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Aloha!

(double meaning FTW!)

I hate when people think that the U.S. is anti-UK. That is absolute nonsense. The UK is our greatest ally, long time friend and everyone knows that if you have a British accent you are smarter than us (or the bad guy in Star Wars movies). We love our brothers and sisters in the UK.

To imply that [H] readers are anti-UK is ignoring the fact that thousands and thousands of readers are from the UK and, as I have said, we love all of them...even you impar ;)
 

whrswoldo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 6, 2002
Messages
3,138
Greetings!

Well, I intended to stay in this forum but after reading this, I will not bother.

It seems as if HardOCP wants an all-USA membership. In the front page the hint is given to start the european bashing and so it begins in the forum.

On topic, Microsoft was found guilty on both sides of the Atlantic, DoJ and EC still wait for the company to provide adequate inter-operarability documentation for its 2001 and 2004 decisions. EC fined Microsoft and is thinking on fining it again. Dont see a problem here.

Farewell.

Greetings!

You whine that American companies are abusive and criminal, you pretentiously deny any fault in the glorious EU and its companies and then you ignore evidence to the contrary and continue to bash everything red white and blue. I don't think Europeans as a whole are whiners however certain exceptionally zealous (and whiny) members seem to shit all over everything. Believe it or not, not all Americans (or [H]ard|Ocp members/staff) are assholes either. If you can't eat what you serve then by all means don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
 
Top