EU Accuses Microsoft of Curbing Web Browser Rivalry

I live in Europe an think the whole European Commission hate towards Microsoft is utterly stupid. And I'm normally rather anti-Microsoft and prefer to use alternatives like Linux, OpenOffice and so on whenever possible :p
 
I honestly think it would be best if Microsoft just gave the EU the finger and pulled Windows out of that market.

Then let them suffer for a year, stating that they will not put up with this bullshit until they start doing the same to Apple and all the integrated crap they put into OSX, and likewise, do the same for all the Linux distros that include everything under the freaking sun.

Let's see how quickly the EU reconsiders its position when put into that position.
 
I don't think including IE is a problem at all, but can I please remove the damn thing?
 
I use IE and Firefox. I suppose I could use FTP in the shell to get FF if IE wasn't there.

I'm waiting for the Trumpet Winsock guys to sue. Fucking MSFT, bunding TCP/IP with Windows!
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You must telnet into a Unix machine. From there, use lynx to navigate and download FF. :D
 
Vermillion said:
This is friggin retarded. You don't have to use IE. Just download it once and move to Opera, Firefox, Chrome, or Safari. Nothing is forcing you to use IE.

EU just wants more money from MS.
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I couldn't agree more, If Opera tried that here in the USA, The courts would tell them to get lost for harassment as I use Firefox and I know for a fact that Opera does work with Windows 2000, XP Pro and XP x64 too. I'd guess Opera also work with all versions of Vista too(I don't own Vista as I can't afford It, Windows 7 is a ways off for Me as I live on a Fixed Income), But then I've not heard of a complaint of a 3rd party web browser not working with any version of Windows from 2000 to Vista. :)
 
I think this is getting seriously too stupid. There's no reason not to include IE, it is a good thing to have even some kind of browser on a fresh win install. Of course it would be nice to be able to remove it easily, like one of the above posts already said.
 
When the last time the EU told MS what the European version of Windows must not contain, how did they forgot this?? It's at the top of the start menu since 2000 (at least).

That would be a great line for ads:
Internet Explorer
At the top of the Start Menu since 2000. :)
 
Opera's in Norway and they're not even part of the EU. F'em, if they want help, they should contribute. Give us Norwegian oil reserves in exchange and we'll listen to FunCom and Opera.
 
SamuraiInBlack said:
I honestly think it would be best if Microsoft just gave the EU the finger and pulled Windows out of that market.

Then let them suffer for a year, stating that they will not put up with this bullshit until they start doing the same to Apple and all the integrated crap they put into OSX, and likewise, do the same for all the Linux distros that include everything under the freaking sun.

Let's see how quickly the EU reconsiders its position when put into that position.
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How popular is Apple overseas, anyway?
 
I dont see why people are getting all in a twazzle about the "problems" people would have with an OS that doesn't come with a browser...

what % of people actually go and buy an OS? people tend to buy OEM machines and then OEM can pack in such applications ... THIS is what Netscape was pissed at, THIS is what realplayer were pissed at simply because they were basically cut out because peole are lazy and use what they are given ERGO WMP and IE

ALSO for those that do actually buy an OS.. the full windows was still sold in the EU not just the WMP strippeddown version
 
eeyrjmr said:
I dont see why people are getting all in a twazzle about the "problems" people would have with an OS that doesn't come with a browser...

what % of people actually go and buy an OS? people tend to buy OEM machines and then OEM can pack in such applications ... THIS is what Netscape was pissed at, THIS is what realplayer were pissed at simply because they were basically cut out because peole are lazy and use what they are given ERGO WMP and IE

ALSO for those that do actually buy an OS.. the full windows was still sold in the EU not just the WMP strippeddown version
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Yeah but they were really only pissed because they were inferior products. They could have easily cut deals with companies like HP, Compaq, Dell, and Gateway back in the day to be bundled with pre-built computers. Firefox and Opera could still do that today.

MS would only be in the wrong if they started cutting deals with computers builders like Dell and HP to not bundle other software in order to receive a discount. That would be breaking the anti-trust laws.

Windows 7 can burn ISO now. Should the fact that we can burn complete CD/DVDs now without 3rd party software be illegal? Are we about to see companies like Roxio and Nero sue the hell out of MS too? Probably not because they have cut deals with DVD makers and companies like Dell.
 
Bambi005 said:
that would be funny. Imagine shipping an os with no way to get online to get another browser :)
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This.

sKiDmArK said:
Does OSX come with anything preloaded other than Safari?
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This.

MrGuvernment said:
IT IS MICROSOFT's OS - THEY CAN INDLUDE WHAT THEY WANT
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And this.




It's a totally different matter if Microsoft started paying Dell and HP to not include anything other than Microsoft stuff. THAT is anti-trust. It'd be a totally different matter if Microsoft prohibited other browsers from being installed.

Nobody is forcing anyone to use IE.


Why doesn't Microsoft just not sell their OS in Europe??? Stop selling it over there for 10 years, let them miss a couple of versions, let the support run out for the versions they are currently on....... Then we'll see who comes crawling back to Microsoft wanting an easy to use OS that includes all of the stuff you need to get going!

Burning_Monk said:
How about just being able to uninstall it, and not have it be a drastic part of the OS?
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Since XP SP2, you can. It's not integrated into Explorer anymore.
 
lets file a lawsuit against France because they are the only ones who have the Eiffel Tower! Idiots! I can't even believe these lawsuits going on over there against Microsoft, these people should be shot. Its like a witch trial over there.
 
What's next? The EU filing lawsuits against Microsoft on behalf of Adobe because Paint is is part of the OS and not Photoshop?
 
GQCarrick said:
What's next? The EU filing lawsuits against Microsoft on behalf of Adobe because Paint is is part of the OS and not Photoshop?
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That's actually a great comparison. No different.


I'm not sure what Microsoft actually shells out in fines over there... But if they actually do shell out money, you'd think at some point they'd rather stop selling in Europe. No fines, no headaches, no more paying hefty lawyer fees to combat it...
 
Wow all that hostility... I agree that this whole "let's sue MS" habit the EU seems to have is nothing short of ridiculous, but really... how many of you are affected by this? Really? Come on!

So MS should pull it's OS out of the EU? Yeah right, along with all their local offices and the R&R they contain no doubt? Or do you seriously think everything that ends up in a MS product is US based?

What they SHOULD do is get some better lawyers to fight their cases for them. There are always loopholes, no matter what the EU is basing their charges on. The fact that they lost 2 times already just makes me pity MS for not doing a better job of countering the EU's claims...

If the EU would just target and sue Apple for once, if there is one company ripping of customers it's them. But then again, who here would care if they got sued?
 
I think MS should pull windows out of the EU all together. Making a large portion of the world use its competition should be great idea. Might help with that whole chicken and the egg situation of install base vs available software its competitors constantly struggle with. Maybe I could finally get Photoshop for Ubuntu. :D
 
mcsetty said:
I think MS should pull windows out of the EU all together. Making a large portion of the world use its competition should be great idea. Might help with that whole chicken and the egg situation of install base vs available software its competitors constantly struggle with. Maybe I could finally get Photoshop for Ubuntu. :D
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My personal opinion is folks in Europe would start buying US copies of Windows off Ebay or something.
 
The average computer user is clueless, stubborn and highly resistant to change. They will stick with whatever browser they start with and will never let go of it no matter how old it becomes, no matter how bad it sucks, no matter how unsafe it is and no matter how good they hear other browsers are.

When someone in that group is first given a chance to use a browser, if they're only given a chance to use one browser, it becomes unfair to all other browsers as all the other browsers lose right away.

Now, it's not MS's fault that a lot of Windows users are like that and it's not MS's fault that other browser vendors don't do better and more advertising. But, MS is being anti-competitive by taking advantage of how its users are and by not doing anything on their end to provide fair competition.

It is MS's OS and they should be able to do what they want with it. A company shouldn't have to advertise competing products to its users. However, when a company has as much market share as MS, things start to appear subjectively different.

(Of course, if you were able to switch someone to another browser, you've gotten lucky and are not dealing with the group above.)

Personally, I'd just like to see Opera, Mozilla and Apple do more advertising about their browsers. Then, just maybe, those users will have heard of other browsers before they get started.

Forcing MS to not bundle IE for example doesn't seem like the best way to go about this though. We'll just let Mozilla, Opera and Apple tear into IE. They'll get there.
 
Shadow2531 said:
Now, it's not MS's fault that a lot of Windows users are like that and it's not MS's fault that other browser vendors don't do better and more advertising.

It is MS's OS and they should be able to do what they want with it.
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By those two points alone the rest of your argument is nill.

What the heck would a law read... "Smaller versions of software may bundle and use their own variations of software, however once you reach more than 100 million in sales of said software, different laws will apply to you"????
It is NOTHING more than the EU hoping Microsoft just pony up some fines. That's it.
Otherwise, why wouldn't they go after Apple? They'd have a heck of alot bigger case against them.






Shadow2531 said:
We'll just let Mozilla, Opera and Apple tear into IE. They'll get there.
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We'll see.
From Vista on, Sandboxed/UAC Internet Explorer will ALWAYS beat the security of any third-party browser you can install.
Featurewise, I guess you haven't seen IE8. It adds quite a many features that were lacking in IE6 and even IE7.
 
TechieSooner said:
By those two points alone the rest of your argument is nill.

What the heck would a law read... "Smaller versions of software may bundle and use their own variations of software, however once you reach more than 100 million in sales of said software, different laws will apply to you"????
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Not sure. Some text from antitrust laws etc.? But, yeh, that's my point. Where do you draw the line and is it fair that you draw the line anywhere?

We'll see.
From Vista on, Sandboxed/UAC Internet Explorer will ALWAYS beat the security of any third-party browser you can install.
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Let's hope so, but I'll put my trust in Opera first.

Featurewise, I guess you haven't seen IE8. It adds quite a many features that were lacking in IE6 and even IE7.
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UI-wise, it adds little. The way they do tabs is hideous.

Standard support-wise, it's still *way* behind. When it supports XML in the HTML namespace served as application/xhtml+xml, addEventListener (with DOMContentLoaded and 'input' event support), query strings for local files (via file: URIs), application/javascript for @type on SCRIPT, npruntime plug-ins loaded via @type and @data/src, and native SVG etc., then let me know. It's data URI support sucks too. And, it still doesn't produce the right DOM for OBJECT elements either.

At least IE8 has a lot of CSS fixes though. Props to them on that.
 
The world would be a much better place without the E.U. and U.S. Congress

There are much more important issues to worry about but instead they blow their time fining Microsoft and banning plasma tv sets, similar to our Congress debating steroid use in fucking baseball.

Governments should be made to prioritize problems and work on them accordingly.
 
TechieSooner said:
By those two points alone the rest of your argument is nill.

What the heck would a law read... "Smaller versions of software may bundle and use their own variations of software, however once you reach more than 100 million in sales of said software, different laws will apply to you"????
It is NOTHING more than the EU hoping Microsoft just pony up some fines. That's it.
Otherwise, why wouldn't they go after Apple? They'd have a heck of alot bigger case against them.
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Yes it's called tying and bundling. We actually have laws against it.

(1) two separate products or services are involved, (2) the sale or agreement to sell one is conditioned on the purchase of the other, (3) the seller has sufficient economic power in the market for the tying product to enable it to restrain trade in the market for the tied product, and (4) a not insubstantial amount of interstate commerce in the tied product is affected.(23)
 
http://omploader.org/vMTNpYw (copy/paste in your browser)
This (although sortof unrelated) is something worth ranting about, not m$ shipping with a brower.
 
Shadow2531 said:
Not sure. Some text from antitrust laws etc.? But, yeh, that's my point. Where do you draw the line and is it fair that you draw the line anywhere?
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kac77 said:
Yes it's called tying and bundling. We actually have laws against it.
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The same line for everyone. That's my point. I really do understand what point you are trying to argue, but you can't just go after Microsoft for it because they are "big" with deep pockets.


Shadow2531 said:
Let's hope so, but I'll put my trust in Opera first.
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:rolleyes:
So, if there's ever an exploit with Opera (and there are plenty for every browser out there), you're already past the browser and then into the OS. Game over.
If there's ever an exploit with sandboxed IE, you hit UAC instantly. It's dead in the water.

There's no "let's hope so" about it. It's plain and simple fact that your sandboxed browser with UAC will beat your standalone third party browser ANY DAY.

Shadow2531 said:
UI-wise, it adds little. The way they do tabs is hideous.
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Care to elaborate? This is alot like Firefox and Opera, and I use both probably on a weekly basis...

Alot of it's personal opinion, but I like the built-in options for tabs that IE offers over Firefox (I've got to have a couple of plugins to make FF do the same thing).


Shadow2531 said:
Standard support-wise, it's still *way* behind.
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It'll pass Acid 2. Just like Opera.
 
TechieSooner said:
There's no "let's hope so" about it. It's plain and simple fact that your sandboxed browser with UAC will beat your standalone third party browser ANY DAY.
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To add to this...
UAC isn't susceptible to zero-day attacks, or unknown exploits that have yet to be patched. IE, Firefox, Opera, whatever you use is.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Nope and why Apple should be getting nailed as well then, why is it okay for Apple to include everything including the kitchen sink ALL made by Apple in the OS, but god forbid MS does it!
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Huge difference. If I remember correctly, almost all the cases against MS is because their bundled software is forced upon you (or at least has been up until recently). Don't like Safari? Drop it in the Trash Bin, and it's gone, that simple. Don't like IE? TOO BAD, it's there to stay!

Bambi005 said:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0bf124e6-e40c-11dd-8274-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Financial Times explains it better. So it seems Opera was the one crying and using a previous ruling against Microsoft.

MS should just pull all of its OS out of EU and let them deal with OSX and Linux, and their super expensive maintenance prices.
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This right here is the issue. Nothing more than the EU abusing their power to protect European company and crush those "damn yankees." The EU pulled this same BS a few months ago when they tried to bring some trivial antitust stuff against Intel, and it all quickly vanished when everyone accused them of trying to protect "poor little AMD" (who just so happens to be a German company).
 
no wonder why user licenses are so frickin expensive, after paying their lawyers, each copy of windows probably only makes them 2$ :(
 
InorganicMatter said:
Huge difference. If I remember correctly, almost all the cases against MS is because their bundled software is forced upon you (or at least has been up until recently). Don't like Safari? Drop it in the Trash Bin, and it's gone, that simple. Don't like IE? TOO BAD, it's there to stay!
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That's be fine, if that was what they were arguing.

Internet Explorer isn't forced on anyone. While not easy to just uninstall, you still don't have to use it.

The European Commission accused Microsoft Corp on Friday of stymieing competition by bundling its Internet Explorer Web browser with Windows systems
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They aren't arguing that it can't be removed at all. Shoot, if you start arguing about the removal of programs, you could go down the path that the Task Manager app is anti-competitive since it's bundled too :rolleyes:
It's just a BS complaint. Since there's really no real world governing agency to regulate the EU, I seriously think if Microsoft wanted to nix the problem once and for all, just threaten to stop selling in Europe. I bet the EU would have a very quick 180 on their position.

Rockjay420 said:
no wonder why user licenses are so frickin expensive, after paying their lawyers, each copy of windows probably only makes them 2$ :(
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Yup... It's why this crap just irks me. Just drives all the costs up, because no company in the world is going to pay for that overhead on their own dime. It'll get passed to the consumer every time.
And IMO, $90 for what you get in Windows is absolutely phenomenal. Compare that to Adobe Photoshop. One program can work with images the other is an OPERATING SYSTEM, and the OS is actually cheaper...
 
kac77 said:
Yes it's called tying and bundling. We actually have laws against it.

(1) two separate products or services are involved, (2) the sale or agreement to sell one is conditioned on the purchase of the other, (3) the seller has sufficient economic power in the market for the tying product to enable it to restrain trade in the market for the tied product, and (4) a not insubstantial amount of interstate commerce in the tied product is affected.(23)
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In this case it's actually called giving the majority of customers what they want.
Plus it could be easily argued that the primary reason a PC is purchased by many is specificaly to use the internet. With that being the case, it is more like selling a car with wheels so the people that prefer a set of Momo's sporting Toyo rubber instead of stock rims and a set of Goodyears can at least drive to the shop to get the wheels they want, and not like bundling a game most don't want with a 360 to excuse jacking up the price and artificially inflating the attach rate.

Oh, there are some people that wish IE was not installed, but if MS removes it and tries to sell it that way, it will end up like the WMP stripped version of Xp. It won't sell well, and, infact, EU customers will go out of their way to make sure they get the unstripped version. Just like last time. It's stupid. WMP stripped Xp at least made some sense, you still had IE on the system to download MPC, VLC, Real, QT, and/or whatever.

Besides, there is no reason that PC vendors in the EU can't bundle FF, Opera, or whatever on their PC's when they sell them. An integrated browser that the masses can't accidentilly uninstall easily is a good thing. Well, not for PC techs I guess, if IE was easy to uninstall they would have extra business. ;)

It's another money grab. I forsee a stupidly huge fine, MS raising the price of Win 7 in the EU, and an IE stripped version of Win 7 for the EU that almost nobody will actually buy.
 
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