Yes, but rather comparable. Enough so that some people don't mind running A3 instead. With other processors, there's no way one would prefer to run A3 if you can also run -bigadv. The difference is insane.
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Equipment for a bare bones dedicated folding rig
- Thread starter amdgamer
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You guys have given me a lot of think about, as I didn't know that the i7's would have this big of an advantage when folding. I got one response over at the Stanford forums by someone who says that you still need 8 cores(physical or virtual), but I am going to wait till I get possibly a few more responses. BTW Micro Center appears to be having a fire sale on i7 930's as they are being sold for $199. In fact, I have noticed that Micro Center has THE BEST cpu prices of anyone lately as their prices are even significantly lower than Newegg. I noticed that MC is selling the Gulftown for $100 less than newegg, and their i7 975x is selling for nearly $200 less than at newegg.
It looks like my current Phenom II X4 965 is on track to do 7000-8000 ppd at the current pace. If it didn't have to suffer from so much downtime from not being able to find work, these numbers would likely be slightly higher. Not bad since I wasn't expecting to do more than 6000ppd or so. My laptop with the Turion 64 X2 Ultra however is pitiful at only 600ppd. That will get even lower as it doesn't appear to be stable if I let it run all night long as it crashes. However it was a $649 laptop........
Thanks to you guys, I am putting aside my bias a little more and giving the Intels more of a fair look. However with a locked cpu multiplier, arn't there any stability problems from jacking up the system bus speeds like that to obtain the overclocks you guys are getting? Something I have never done is mess with the bus speed as bad things can sometimes happen if it isn't stable. At least with the cpu multiplier, it just won't POST if you mess that up..........
It looks like my current Phenom II X4 965 is on track to do 7000-8000 ppd at the current pace. If it didn't have to suffer from so much downtime from not being able to find work, these numbers would likely be slightly higher. Not bad since I wasn't expecting to do more than 6000ppd or so. My laptop with the Turion 64 X2 Ultra however is pitiful at only 600ppd. That will get even lower as it doesn't appear to be stable if I let it run all night long as it crashes. However it was a $649 laptop........
Thanks to you guys, I am putting aside my bias a little more and giving the Intels more of a fair look. However with a locked cpu multiplier, arn't there any stability problems from jacking up the system bus speeds like that to obtain the overclocks you guys are getting? Something I have never done is mess with the bus speed as bad things can sometimes happen if it isn't stable. At least with the cpu multiplier, it just won't POST if you mess that up..........
The system has to be 100% stable to fold. Prime 95 doesn't even come close to cutting it. If your not stable the client will EUE constantly.
Good cooling and a decent mobo is all ya need. A 920 will do 3.3 even if it from an early batch.
Good cooling and a decent mobo is all ya need. A 920 will do 3.3 even if it from an early batch.
Okay, I got a few more responses and apparantly the client will no longer assign you a -bigadv if it detects fewer than 8 cores(physical or virtual). The reponses have told me that Thuban will not be able to fold bigadv WU's unless you get around it by sneakernetting. I did a quick search and sneakernetting would be off the table as it is too complex for me to worry about. I am a set and forget type of person.So for Thuban, it looks like -bigadv is off the table and would only be able to do SMP A3 WU's. However, I wonder how that would be affected if the A3 WU's were to get bigger and bigger to come closer to resembling what you get in a -bigadv.........
I somehow doubt bigger WUs will be that much more productive but I could be wrong. First, we don't know when bigger WUs than the newest ones released recently will be forthcoming. Second, if you look at the thread about new bigger A3 WUs, some people actually saw a performance decrease, notably with AMD processors, so YMMV. Third, there's simply no guarantees that Stanford will increase the value or productivity of future WUs.
If history is any indicator, we may actually witness a decreasing trend in PPD with newer WUs, not necessarily increasing. Only when there's something entirely new like a new client, new core or new application do we see higher PPD. Ask anyone who has been through the various client versions, cores and F@H applications over the years and they'll tell you there are no guarantees.
That isn't a fire sale. That is their normal price for the 930
I thought it was their 920's that they used to sell for $199. I think I remember their 930's selling for $249 last month. Either way, I remember a time when it was Newegg and not a B&M store that had the best prices on cpus. Micro Center must kill themselves over the prices on these in order to lure people in to buy other stuff like Motherboards, ram, etc... that I noticed are priced a few dollars over Newegg. MC is even selling the i7 975 Extreme for $200 less than Newegg right now, and Gulftown for $100 less! Their Phenom 965's are $20 less too.
Ahh, that makes sense. I suppose the best thing we can do is make sure we can adapt when conditions change.
For those of you guys using VMware inside Windows 7, are you guys having any trouble getting it to work with your wireless router? I am currently leaning towards a Core i7 system right now because Micro Center has such good prices, I am an impulse buyer who doesn't wait when I decide I want something. It is also clear that while an Intel rig costs more money to build, it offers a better ppd/$ spent ratio as you can do bigadv WU's.
I am not a crazy overclocker, but what do you guys think a Core i7 930 needs to be overclocked to, in order to generate decent points and finish a -bigadv WU with enough time to spare? I know someone mentioned 3.4ghz should get that comfortably done, but heat becomes a huge issue for me. While slightly cooler than my computer room, this room i'm sticking this rig into will not be that much cooler. This is the hardware I am looking at right now...........
$220 GA-X58A-UD3R LGA 1366 X58 ATX Motherboard
$200 Core i7-930 Processor Boxed
$210 XMS3 6GB DDR3-1600 (PC-12800) CL8 Memory Kit (Three 2GB Memory Modules)
$80 NH-U12P SE2 Universal CPU Cooler
$35 Radeon X1300 256MB DDR2 PCIe x16 Graphics Card
$xx some cheap HDD
6 gigs of ram will be enough inside of a VM in Windows 7 x64? If I can find my old copy of Windows XP 64bit, i'll try using that instead.
I am not a crazy overclocker, but what do you guys think a Core i7 930 needs to be overclocked to, in order to generate decent points and finish a -bigadv WU with enough time to spare? I know someone mentioned 3.4ghz should get that comfortably done, but heat becomes a huge issue for me. While slightly cooler than my computer room, this room i'm sticking this rig into will not be that much cooler. This is the hardware I am looking at right now...........
$220 GA-X58A-UD3R LGA 1366 X58 ATX Motherboard
$200 Core i7-930 Processor Boxed
$210 XMS3 6GB DDR3-1600 (PC-12800) CL8 Memory Kit (Three 2GB Memory Modules)
$80 NH-U12P SE2 Universal CPU Cooler
$35 Radeon X1300 256MB DDR2 PCIe x16 Graphics Card
$xx some cheap HDD
6 gigs of ram will be enough inside of a VM in Windows 7 x64? If I can find my old copy of Windows XP 64bit, i'll try using that instead.
Mr. Pedantic
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If it's a dedicated folder it's much better to run a Linux distro natively. You could also run Notfred's, there's a version out there that allows the computer to boot off a USB stick and fold off that. So you don't even need that hard drive.
If it's a dedicated folder, you also don't need a graphics card. You don't even need integrated graphics. 800x600 16-bit color is fine, you're only going to be using the computer for about 20 minutes...ever.
930s can hit 4GHz easily, even for folding. They're better overclockers than even the D0 920s. So I wouldn't cap myself at 3.4 unless you get an absolutely crappy chip (shit happens). But most 930s should get upwards of 4GHz comfortably SMP stable.
Also, I wouldn't get the NH-U12P. It's expensive, and a few years ago that price was justified, but not anymore. With new coolers like the Cogage TRUE Spirit, Prolimatech Megahalems, and the Titan Fenrir, there is no point paying $80 for such a cooler. All 3 I mentioned run cooler, and cost less.
If it's a dedicated folder, you also don't need a graphics card. You don't even need integrated graphics. 800x600 16-bit color is fine, you're only going to be using the computer for about 20 minutes...ever.
930s can hit 4GHz easily, even for folding. They're better overclockers than even the D0 920s. So I wouldn't cap myself at 3.4 unless you get an absolutely crappy chip (shit happens). But most 930s should get upwards of 4GHz comfortably SMP stable.
Also, I wouldn't get the NH-U12P. It's expensive, and a few years ago that price was justified, but not anymore. With new coolers like the Cogage TRUE Spirit, Prolimatech Megahalems, and the Titan Fenrir, there is no point paying $80 for such a cooler. All 3 I mentioned run cooler, and cost less.
Vaulter98c
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Save a few bucks
Save 40$ By getting a TRUE Spirit, better unit anways, I just got 2 on sale 35$ each, normally 40$,linked comes with mounting kit!!
Save 50$ By getting THIS memory, a lot of us here run it
Save 25$ By getting the 10$ GPU HERE (same unit you picked)
Go ahead and use xp64 if its a dedicated boxen, the lower overhead will provide better speeds, or go native with linux in the form of the 1.0 distro (or 1.1, not sure which one is the live one)
Just saved you 100$ that can go towards a future purchase! Also, what are you doing for a case?
And 3.8 seems to be a nice point for most of us here, that nets around 25-26k PPD (via a VM, 28-29k native) with low temps, low volts (read lower wattage/lower power bills), and rock solid stability. Nothing pushes a rig as hard as BigAdv, I ran Prime95 stable for 8 hours on maxtemp setting/8 threads, EUE'd in 5 minutes under BigAdv at 4.1. Even 3.9, which was A3 stable, crashed after an hour. 3.8 (190 bclk) is what a lot of us run here
Save 40$ By getting a TRUE Spirit, better unit anways, I just got 2 on sale 35$ each, normally 40$,linked comes with mounting kit!!
Save 50$ By getting THIS memory, a lot of us here run it
Save 25$ By getting the 10$ GPU HERE (same unit you picked)
Go ahead and use xp64 if its a dedicated boxen, the lower overhead will provide better speeds, or go native with linux in the form of the 1.0 distro (or 1.1, not sure which one is the live one)
Just saved you 100$ that can go towards a future purchase! Also, what are you doing for a case?
And 3.8 seems to be a nice point for most of us here, that nets around 25-26k PPD (via a VM, 28-29k native) with low temps, low volts (read lower wattage/lower power bills), and rock solid stability. Nothing pushes a rig as hard as BigAdv, I ran Prime95 stable for 8 hours on maxtemp setting/8 threads, EUE'd in 5 minutes under BigAdv at 4.1. Even 3.9, which was A3 stable, crashed after an hour. 3.8 (190 bclk) is what a lot of us run here
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I only get 7000ppd more with bigadv over A3's but its still a lot. that and its the easyest client i have ever setup.
Vaulter98c
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http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0302727
Going for 169.99 if you can find a store near you!!
Going for 169.99 if you can find a store near you!!
Mr. Pedantic
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But you have a 920. 930s can clock much, much higher.
The issue is that I have no choice but to connect to the internet via a wireless router, and the consensus seems to be that running Linux natively is going to be hard to do this with. I was wondering, how will I be able to set the computer up and see what is being displayed without a graphics card? I have an old IBM CRT monitor that I was going to hook it up to, and would otherwise have no idea how.
I forgot about that gem of a cpu cooler. I never considered it because Cogage never made anything for AMD based systems. I remember reading that the Cogage performs with the best, and is one of the very few coolers on the market that will still allow you to use all 6 ram slots should you need to do so. However, I have always been told that OCZ ram and Gigabyte motherboards don't get along very well. I've been mostly a Corsair guy because they are pretty much universally compatible with just about everything. Has this compatibility issue with OCZ gotten better then?
Yeah, unfortunately my local Micro Center does not hae any 920's left. I heard that the 920's got discontinued. However if the 930's are more stable with overclocks, then that sounds like a better deal.
For those of you guys running Linux natively, is there a good web site that you can think of that might be good for giving me an idea of how it works and how one might get it working for folding purposes with a wireless internet connection? If 6 gigs of memory will be enough, i'd prefer to stick with Windows 7 x64 or XP x64 and run a VM. I've been looking for half an hour and still can't find my old XP x64 copy........
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As far as cases go, I was planning on using my old Coolermaster Mid Tower case from a previous build. However, it doesn't look like it will work as the 550watt Antec PSU is way too close to the cpu socket to allow for the use of a decent cpu cooler. If that doesn't work out, I was looking at the Coolermaster HAF932 which is the one that looks like an apartment building. It has more fans than i've ever seen before in a case. I am using the special AMD edition HAF932 for my current desktop rig, which replaces that gigantic side fan for a clear plexiglass window that lets your look inside your computer.
If my old Coolermaster is still usable, that would be a big plus as I need to keep my budget in line.
If my old Coolermaster is still usable, that would be a big plus as I need to keep my budget in line.
Mr. Pedantic
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Oops. My bad. Yeah, you'll probably want a graphics card of some sort.
As for wireless, when I used Ubuntu it just worked. I have heard that other people had a hard time getting Samba to play nicely with Windows sharing, (and I did too) but I have never had problems actually connecting to the internet wirelessly on Ubuntu.
I would recommend some G.skill memory. I haven't seen any compatibility problems with them on any boards. As for the X58A UD3R, I wouldn't get that. If you're ont eh theme of saving money, and since it's a dedicated folder, I'd get something like the ASUS P6T SE.
The Asus P6T appears to be $10 more epensive than that Gigabyte at Micro Center. Is there something wrong with that Gigabyte board?
This card picks up automatically in Ubuntu 9.10 and 10.04 beta, and picked up after updating 9.04. It is very hardware-dependant on what works and what doesn't. Here are a couple of links if you end up going with Linux.
http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_alles.php
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported
Mr. Pedantic
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Really? In that case, stick with the Gigabyte. I just picked it because it was supposed to be a lot cheaper than the Gigabyte.
Thanks as that is good to know that it is natively supported in the Ubuntu builds. I still lean towards Windows, but Ubuntu seems like a good possibility if I decide to brave Linux.
The Gigabyte I had in that list earlier is currently selling for $220($199 after $20 Gigabyte rebate) and that Asus is selling for $229 with no available rebate. So in reality that Asus is about $30 more expensive. I havn't checked Newegg though as i'm trying to buy most of my parts from Micro Center. I will be having them do the build for me as I don't do system builds anymore. You guys will laugh, but I don't trust myself and my hands anymore when it comes to computer hardware. The last time I built my own computer, Cyrix was still making their 586 and 686 cpu's which were notorious for burning up from excessive heat. All it takes is one compatibility issue with the hardware, or one dead piece of hardware and you have a weekend laced with curses and vulgarities as you try to figure out why in the hell it won't POST.
Mr. Pedantic
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Newegg, I think, has the P6T SE for $190, which is why I recommended it.
Building a system is a hell of a lot easier than it used to be, its extremely rare to get a DOA part thse days, just plug everything in and off you go. It now takes me about an hour to do a basic build (lots of practise with my folding rig this last year). It actually takes me longer to get all the software installed and up and running. As you've built systems in the past i'd give it another go - you may be pleasantly surprised plus i get a great deal of satisfaction when it all powers up
Oddly, I just threw away a Cyrix II 300 socket 7 chip I found in one of my parts boxes a couple weeks ago. It was the chip from my first PC build back in the late 1990's. It was also my first non-Mac PC. I probably used it for a couple years without issue. FYI, Cyrix chips didn't fold worth a darn...
Building a system is a hell of a lot easier than it used to be, its extremely rare to get a DOA part thse days, just plug everything in and off you go. It now takes me about an hour to do a basic build (lots of practise with my folding rig this last year). It actually takes me longer to get all the software installed and up and running. As you've built systems in the past i'd give it another go - you may be pleasantly surprised plus i get a great deal of satisfaction when it all powers up
I still think i'll pass on this
I just don't trust myself anymore, nor do I trust my hands when it comes to handling computer stuff. I actually have developd a very acute phobia of computer hardware. I can't explain it except that I think that I have just lost my nerves. We'll see though as i'm going to decide today whether to go with a Core i7 930 or wait it out till Thuban gets released just to see what is out there.
Oddly, I just threw away a Cyrix II 300 socket 7 chip I found in one of my parts boxes a couple weeks ago. It was the chip from my first PC build back in the late 1990's. It was also my first non-Mac PC. I probably used it for a couple years without issue. FYI, Cyrix chips didn't fold worth a darn...
Back in those days, Cyrix and AMD wasn't a bad deal if you were doing anything but gaming or stuff that heavily relied on the cpu's FPU. However once you try to game, it was clear that the non Intel processors just couldn't cut it. It doesn't surprise me that Cyrix chips couldn't fold as i'm sure AMD chips couldn't hardly fold back then either.
Folding was launched in October 2000, and the AMD chips that were being used at that time for folding were the Athlons, which were superior to Intel Pentiums clock for clock. Until the release of faster Pentiums, AMD chips were strongly favored by folders and dual Athlon setups were often built as dedicated folding systems. My dual Athlon system from 2001 was still folding until the beginning of this year. The cheaper cost and often higher performance made them ideal as folding platforms for many years, as many old-timers here will attest.
*sigh* I miss the days when AMD was on top of the world and Intel couldn't do a damn thing about it because they had gotten caught with their pants down.
Well guys, wish me luck, i'm on my way to Micro Center right now with my shopping list, old computer case, PSU, and DVD-rom drive, and found my copy of Windows XP x64. It was out in storage like I thought and has literally(the truth) 2mm of dust on it. At least this will save me $109 since I have made up my mind to not give Linux a try. I just don't have enough time right now to read up on all of the Linux stuff I found online. Since Windows XP x64 is lean, the guys over at Stanford believe that 6 gigs of memory will be enough to run -bigadv within a VM. Now the question is whether I should go with a 930 and overclock it, or go with a 960 and be a little safer off. From what I understand, both cpu's clock to about the same.
6GB is more than enough. I have two machines with 6GB of memory running Win 7-64 and they have a VM with -bigadv clients. You really only need about ~5GB for a VM, and 1GB is more than enough for any Windows OS to use if it's dedicated.
Go with whatever fits your budget and what use you will get out of it.
Vaulter98c
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930, your not going much if any above 3.8 so go with whats cheaper, hell, even the 920 if they have it in stock lol
Can't wait to see your build, post pics when ready!
Can't wait to see your build, post pics when ready!
Ok, I just got back from Micro Center and they said that they think my computer will be ready to pick up tomarrow. It has the following........
Intel Core i7 930
Gigabyte X58 mobo
12 gigs Corsair DDR3-1600 XMS3 CL8 ram in triple channel
the old 550 watt Antec PSU
the old computer case
the old 12x DVD-Rom drive
a 300gig WD cheap harddrive
Netgear Wireless PCI adapter
$14 PCIx OEM video card, I think it is an ATI Radeon X1350
I will have the hard drive dual partitioned in case I want to try Linux
They will install my old copy of Windows XP x64
Cogage True Spirit CPU cooler
Now you guys will have to give me some pointers on overclocking this thing so that I can finish -bigadv WU's on time. I don't plan on going too aggressive as I think i'll stay around 3.5-3.6ghz at most. I have never overclocked anything that has a locked cpu multiplier as I have never been comfortable messing around with the system bus speeds. I remember how there was a time when cpus were never locked and you changed the multiplier by moving around jumper switches on the motherboard itself.........
Thanks for all of your help guys, but I have a feeling i'll be needing more help soon........
I also now need to find a way to forgive myself for not getting an AMD processor........
Intel Core i7 930
Gigabyte X58 mobo
12 gigs Corsair DDR3-1600 XMS3 CL8 ram in triple channel
the old 550 watt Antec PSU
the old computer case
the old 12x DVD-Rom drive
a 300gig WD cheap harddrive
Netgear Wireless PCI adapter
$14 PCIx OEM video card, I think it is an ATI Radeon X1350
I will have the hard drive dual partitioned in case I want to try Linux
They will install my old copy of Windows XP x64
Cogage True Spirit CPU cooler
Now you guys will have to give me some pointers on overclocking this thing so that I can finish -bigadv WU's on time. I don't plan on going too aggressive as I think i'll stay around 3.5-3.6ghz at most. I have never overclocked anything that has a locked cpu multiplier as I have never been comfortable messing around with the system bus speeds. I remember how there was a time when cpus were never locked and you changed the multiplier by moving around jumper switches on the motherboard itself.........
Thanks for all of your help guys, but I have a feeling i'll be needing more help soon........
I also now need to find a way to forgive myself for not getting an AMD processor........
This guide is very good:
http://www.overclockers.com/3-step-guide-overclock-core-i3-i5-i7/
All 4 of my 920's are at 3.8GHz. That 930 should beat that without breaking a sweat. You have plenty of cooling for it.
Trust me when I tell you that you will thank us for the peer pressure to get you to go with an Intel system, especially when you see that one machine turning over 30K ppd...
http://www.overclockers.com/3-step-guide-overclock-core-i3-i5-i7/
All 4 of my 920's are at 3.8GHz. That 930 should beat that without breaking a sweat. You have plenty of cooling for it.
Trust me when I tell you that you will thank us for the peer pressure to get you to go with an Intel system, especially when you see that one machine turning over 30K ppd...
Mr. Pedantic
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What they did do was market the hell out of Pentium 4, so that the average Joe thought the Pentium 4 was awesome when the Athlon 64s beat the proverbial shit out of it, so even when AMD had a better-performing part than Intel they still lost market share.
Not necessarily. The 930 is half the price and can clock at least as high; so I would think the 930 would be a no brainer.
Heh, you are just a tad late as I went ahead and got a 930 in the post I made a few posts ago
It turned out to be a no brainer as they my local Micro Center no longer carries the 960. For socket 1333, they go straight from a 930 to a 980x Gulftown as there isn't much choice anymore. Now I just have to figure out how to overclock this processor and still keep things stable. I will probably not go too crazy as I had no idea that the Core i7's had such an insane power draw when overclocked under load. I read Tomshardware's 920 review and the 920 had a power draw of over 400 watts when overclocked to 4.0 ghz. My PSU is only a 550 watt and is 5 years old, so I will not push it too hard.
I hope to see you producing mad ppd soon. Happy mowing!
Thanks, as I am curious to see how that rig is going to do. I'm hoping it is ready by tomarrow.
For a while, I will probably take things slow just to make sure things are stable. At that point, I will take my gaming rig and laptop offline.
Vaulter98c
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+1 for that guide, I havnt OC'd much since my AMD days and that guide got me to 3.8 (3.9 for A3, but wouldnt do a big adv) easy. You should have it even easier because your multi is one higher I think
tjmagneto
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Welcome to the i7 party! That 930 is going to get you some great clocks with the Spirit. Take the time to do the stability checks as you ramp up the OC and watch the magic happen when you get your first bigadv done. Completing my first bigadv and seeing the results posted one was like opening presents on Christmas morning.