Epic Games Sues Apple

odditory

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It's great news for Epic; just made Apple look worse.
Actually, the real victims of this - Fortnite players on iOS - are apparently seeing right through this publicity stunt and putting the blame squarely on Epic.

A quick perusal of /r/FortniteMobile indicates rage flowing entirely in Epic's direction.

Literally all Epic has to do to get Fortnite reinstated is rollback the hotfix that got the app banned, and iOS players could get back to running around their beloved gameworld in Spiderman costumes and rainbow wigs.
 

cybereality

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Epic is also not releasing the new season on macOS, even though there are no restrictions there.

Definitely feels like they are trying to weaponize players and I'm not sure it's working.
 

DukenukemX

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I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The only people being exploited are Apple customers.
Don't worry, both Epic and Apple customers are getting screwed here, because both are effected by this lawsuit. My hope is that both get screwed in the end as the government needed to step in a decade ago when Apple restricted their devices to their app store and when games introduced the concept of micro-transactions. Both opperate in grey areas. For example Apple sells you a device that you don't have control over where and what apps you install. Epic isn't selling you a game but is massively profiting off outfits and skins that you may or may not own, and can ban your account which doesn't refund any of your purchases since you never owned them to begin with. Both are very anti-consumer and like much of the industry has been getting away with it for years. Apple needs to open up their devices or open up the store, while games like Fortnite needs to let players sell their skins to other players or right back to Epic themselves in the event they no longer have access to their purchased digital goods.

 
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Deleted member 243478

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Don't worry, both Epic and Apple customers are getting screwed here, because both are effected by this lawsuit. My hope is that both get screwed in the end as the government needed to step in a decade ago when Apple restricted their devices to their app store and when games introduced the concept of micro-transactions. Both opperate in grey areas. For example Apple sells you a device that you don't have control over where and what apps you install. Epic isn't selling you a game but is massively profiting off outfits and skins that you may or may not own, and can ban your account which doesn't refund any of your purchases since you never owned them to begin with. Both are very anti-consumer and like much of the industry has been getting away with it for years. Apple needs to open up their devices or open up the store, while games like Fortnite needs to let players sell their skins to other players or right back to Epic themselves in the event they no longer have access to their purchased digital goods.


So stop buying fucking devices that you don’t agree with. Honestly you people are like children, expect Apple to fully open their systems and security up because you’re too stupid to buy the products that fit your needs and expectations.

Apple and Android both exist with their own benefits and disadvantages depending on if you want a robust, secure, closed system or an open, less secure but customisable one.

You cannot have all the advantages Apple offers while having the relatively open platform Android offers. If it were possible, someone would have done it by now.
 

DukenukemX

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So stop buying fucking devices that you don’t agree with. Honestly you people are like children, expect Apple to fully open their systems and security up because you’re too stupid to buy the products that fit your needs and expectations.
I don't buy Apple.

You cannot have all the advantages Apple offers while having the relatively open platform Android offers. If it were possible, someone would have done it by now.
It's called Linux. You know, the thing that manages most of the servers in the world? You can have all the advantages of an open platform while being secure, but it costs money. Specifically it costs Apple money. Apple spent money to make iOS secure from Jailbreaking, and even that they failed. Locking down the OS so you only get apps from the store isn't a benefit to you, but a benefit for Apple so they don't have to pay someone to constantly fix their security holes.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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I don't buy Apple.


It's called Linux. You know, the thing that manages most of the servers in the world? You can have all the advantages of an open platform while being secure, but it costs money. Specifically it costs Apple money. Apple spent money to make iOS secure from Jailbreaking, and even that they failed. Locking down the OS so you only get apps from the store isn't a benefit to you, but a benefit for Apple so they don't have to pay someone to constantly fix their security holes.

Android is a modified Linux kernel. Try again.

You like many people who are armchair experts think you can do a better job than Apple or Google ... so prove it. Make your own mobile platform implementing your superior knowledge and make a fortune.

If you dont buy Apple then stop caring and accept that many Apple users make this choice for the benefits that come from the Apple platform and are happy to pay the premium for it.

Your typical iPhone user doesn’t play garbage kids games and spend their income on skins.
 
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sc5mu93

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slightly related Apple 30% cut story between two favorites: FB and Apple.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-telling-users-about-30-percent-event-charge/

I like the rejection: irrelevant.
But Facebook says Apple forced the company to delete the notice, dubbing it a violation of the App Store's policy against showing "irrelevant" information to users.

Apple's rules state that an app developer shouldn't "include irrelevant information, including but not limited to information about Apple or the development process."
 

TheBuzzer

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epic should just follow apple rule since ios is apples platform.


since epic wants to make money for a game, they hsould just charge 1000 dollars to install fortnight on ios.

we all know that mac gamers are just spoiled kids anyways.
 

DukenukemX

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Android is a modified Linux kernel. Try again.
I'm not saying Android doesn't have it's faults, but Androids problems is that it hardly ever updates. Majority of Android phones never receive updates and this is obviously bad from a security point of view.
You like many people who are armchair experts think you can do a better job than Apple or Google ... so prove it. Make your own mobile platform implementing your superior knowledge and make a fortune.
Actually... there's LineageOS, which is a derivative of Android. Gets updates all the time. Community made OS.
If you dont but Apple then stop caring and accept that many Apple users make this choice for the benefits that come from the Apple platform and are happy to pay the premium for it.
Apple users cooperation is no longer a factor. The fact is that Apple's platform is anti-competitive and anti-consumer is the reason Apple is in this lawsuit.
Your typical iPhone user doesn’t play garbage kids games and spend their income on skins.
Your typical iPhone user is a kid because that's what mommy and daddy give them to shut them up. Why else is Epic fighting Apple that'll likely cost them millions in legal fees? Not because the majority of Apple users are Karen's that are too busy taking photos and reading text messages. Apple devices are overpriced toys that adults with Trump checks bought for their kids.
 

sharknice

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epic should just follow apple rule since ios is apples platform.


since epic wants to make money for a game, they hsould just charge 1000 dollars to install fortnight on ios.

we all know that mac gamers are just spoiled kids anyways.

They might not really lose that much by not having it on iOS, and it's possible they even make more money not having it on iOS. We don't know for sure because we don't have their analytics.

A lot of mobile players also play on other platforms.
If someone is buying everything on their iPhone but also plays on the other platforms they're still going to buy stuff, but with a much bigger cut going to Epic.
A lot of people don't really play it on their phone, they just use it to look at and buy the items while they're at work, school, on the bus, watching tv, etc.
 

odditory

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August 28
Apple Terminates Epic Games Developer Account

"We are disappointed that we have had to terminate the Epic Games account on the ‌App Store‌. We have worked with the team at Epic Games for many years on their launches and releases. The court recommended that Epic comply with the ‌App Store‌ guidelines while their case moves forward, guidelines they’ve followed for the past decade until they created this situation. Epic has refused. Instead they repeatedly submit Fortnite updates designed to violate the guidelines of the ‌App Store‌. This is not fair to all other developers on the ‌App Store‌ and is putting customers in the middle of their fight. We hope that we can work together again in the future, but unfortunately that is not possible today."
 

Aegir

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August 28
Apple Terminates Epic Games Developer Account

"We are disappointed that we have had to terminate the Epic Games account on the ‌App Store‌. We have worked with the team at Epic Games for many years on their launches and releases. The court recommended that Epic comply with the ‌App Store‌ guidelines while their case moves forward, guidelines they’ve followed for the past decade until they created this situation. Epic has refused. Instead they repeatedly submit Fortnite updates designed to violate the guidelines of the ‌App Store‌. This is not fair to all other developers on the ‌App Store‌ and is putting customers in the middle of their fight. We hope that we can work together again in the future, but unfortunately that is not possible today."

Even I think they should have complied during this period.
 
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Deleted member 243478

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Even I think they should have complied during this period.

Apple cant give EPIC a free pass just because the engine is used by other developers, if that were the case, Apple would never be able to remove them. It hasn't been proven yet that it will have any impact on other games by proxy.
 

cybereality

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Honestly, I feel Epic has gone too far on this. It was kind of a fun PR stunt, but they should have done what's right for developers once they realized Apple was playing hardball.

I still want to support Unreal Engine, and maybe I can live without exporting to iOS or macOS (honestly, I don't like Apple anyhow), but that is not a fair deal for a lot of developers.
 

Aegir

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Epic is still more right than Apple regarding this.
Even if they go "too far," it would show weakness to back down.

Show even a drop of fear in this world, and the wolves strike.
 

cybereality

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Yes, on the retaliation bit, Apples strong move maybe does help the case.

But I feel like this is an "all-in" moment for Epic and they may not have the best cards.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Honestly, I feel Epic has gone too far on this. It was kind of a fun PR stunt, but they should have done what's right for developers once they realized Apple was playing hardball.

I still want to support Unreal Engine, and maybe I can live without exporting to iOS or macOS (honestly, I don't like Apple anyhow), but that is not a fair deal for a lot of developers.

Apple playing hardball should have been a forgone conclusion.

App store transaction revenue is too big of a source of their revenue for them not to.

Apple will be playing to win, or die trying, no matter the cost on this one. Scorched earth is the only option. It remains to be seen if corporate parent Tencent wants to foot the bill for Epic's overwhelming legal costs when they get buried in a "deepest pockets" fight with Apple...

...and Apple has pretty deep pockets. Almost $200B cash on hand in the bank last I checked.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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Epic is still more right than Apple regarding this.
Even if they go "too far," it would show weakness to back down.

Show even a drop of fear in this world, and the wolves strike.

How the hell can anyone say Epic is more right. My god they have really managed to sucker everyone that much.

Epic agreed to the terms and conditions contract when they joined the App Store and developer program, those conditions have never changed. Conditions they have since violated and subjected to removal from the App Store and developer accounts. Apple gave them a chance to correct the issue and they chose not to. This was all done as a PR stunt and nothing more, they had all these ads and garbage ready to go before Apple even responded. They wanted this from the beginning and don't care who gets hurt in the process in their pursuit of another 10% revenue.

Just because you don't agree with your credit card fees doesn't mean you can to do whatever the hell you want and you are in the right.
 
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Aegir

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How the hell can anyone say Epic is more right. My god they have really managed to sucker everyone that much.

Epic agreed to the terms and conditions contract when they joined the App Store and developer program, those conditions have never changed. Conditions they have since violated and subjected to removal from the App Store and developer accounts. Apple gave them a chance to correct the issue and they chose not to. This was all done as a PR stunt and nothing more, they had all these ads and garbage ready to go before Apple even responded. They wanted this from the beginning and don't care who gets hurt in the process in their pursuit of another 10% revenue.

Just because you don't agree with your credit card fees doesn't mean you can to do whatever the hell you want and you are in the right.

Terms and conditions mean nothing if they violate the law.

If the law has not yet been written, then it shall be written.
This is Epic's chance to write a new law that will overrule contradicting terms and conditions.
 

MavericK

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If Epic doesn't like Apple's TOS, they shouldn't have agreed to them and not put the game up on iOS. But of course they did, because money. Now Epic wants to complain about it and expects Apple to roll over. They want to have thier cake and eat it too. And by cake I mean obscene amounts of cash.

Apple's 30% cut is shitty, but I honestly don't know what Epic expected would happen here.

Fuck both of these companies. Fuck them for trying to manipulate consumers into going to war for a corporation.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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If Epic doesn't like Apple's TOS, they shouldn't have agreed to them and not put the game up on iOS. But of course they did, because money. Now Epic wants to complain about it and expects Apple to roll over. They want to have thier cake and eat it too. And by cake I mean obscene amounts of cash.

Apple's 30% cut is shitty, but I honestly don't know what Epic expected would happen here.

Fuck both of these companies. Fuck them for trying to manipulate consumers into going to war for a corporation.

The same 30% cut that literally every other platform takes from Steam to game consoles... but Apple are just assholes being singled out because... Apple.

Apple like game console makers are providing a complete hardware / software platform and marketplace to sell apps / games to their customers.

I can tell you now as an Apple user, I don't want 10 dam app stores on my devices from every developer trying to cut Apple out of the process with their own systems and payment processing. I also only want my payment information going to Apple and no other 3rd parties.

Luckily Apple will take this sort of control to their grave and will never allow other app stores or developers to side load their own apps. Maybe one day everyone will stop trying to turn Apple into Android 2.0 and just piss off back to their own platforms :ROFLMAO: I don't know how we will ever survive without EPIC's trash on iOS :ROFLMAO:
 

Okatis

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The same 30% cut that literally every other platform takes from Steam to game consoles... but Apple are just assholes being singled out because... Apple.

I'd be curious what the cut is of IAP/MTX for Valve/Sony/MS, since that's what spurred Epic's actions/suits in the first place. The only figure I could find for Steam was 10% or 15% but the user wasn't positive.
 
D

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I'd be curious what the cut is of IAP/MTX for Valve/Sony/MS, since that's what spurred Epic's actions/suits in the first place. The only figure I could find for Steam was 10% or 15% but the user wasn't positive.

Steam has a few exceptions but it is generally 30% which is far higher considering it is purely a software platform with no hardware ecosystem.

Sony and Microsoft take the same cut but because they are bespoke game consoles, somehow that gives them a free pass even though they are general computers also with web browsers, media players etc.
 

Okatis

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Steam has a few exceptions but it is generally 30% [...] Sony and Microsoft take the same cut

Do you happen to have some links for this? As I tried finding what the cut was specifically for IAP/MTX but had no luck. Their game sale cut I know is 30% though (true also for most stores).
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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If Epic doesn't like Apple's TOS, they shouldn't have agreed to them and not put the game up on iOS. But of course they did, because money. Now Epic wants to complain about it and expects Apple to roll over. They want to have thier cake and eat it too. And by cake I mean obscene amounts of cash.

Apple's 30% cut is shitty, but I honestly don't know what Epic expected would happen here.

Fuck both of these companies. Fuck them for trying to manipulate consumers into going to war for a corporation.

I must be missing something here because Apple have done nothing in regards to this other than removing a developer who breached their T&Cs. Epic are the ones who have twisted it into a PR stunt to create some sort of army against Apple.
 

Aurelius

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Good! I would develop apps for iOS if I didn't have to pay a ridiculous monthly fee and could distribute my apps from outside the app store and control my own payments and licensing terms. Screw Apple. As it is now, I still hope they die.

I know I'm replying late, but... inaccurate claims about iOS development costs notwithstanding, I never quite get the people who genuinely want Apple to die. Especially for something as unsurprising and relatively tame as wanting to preserve its cut of App Store sales.

There's this odd subset of anti-Apple types who not only refuse to use Apple products (which is certainly fine, if not always rational), but hope for a total Google or Microsoft monopoly. They genuinely want to kill meaningful competition and choice in the market. Apple, whatever you think of it, is what keeps Google and Microsoft in check. Even if I didn't use some Apple products, I wouldn't want Apple to die; I'd want it to get better.
 

Priller

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Imagine if FrgMstr got 30% of everything sold in the market place and how many people would bitch about it or just leave.
 

deruberhanyok

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Priller imagine it was part of the terms of using this forum, in fact imagine it was part of the terms of all forums, and everyone agreed to it and abided by it, and the money was used to pay for the forums, and then someone decided they just didn’t want to pay but wanted to keep using the forums.
 
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deruberhanyok

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Riiiiight, I keep forgetting that all services and infrastructure should be free for everyone to use at no cost, and any company that sets up said infrastructure to provide said services should be happy to see it used and just keep pumping money into it from their bottomless bank accounts.

how dare they charge for the services they offer. That should be illegal!

Really, what’s the end game here? Declare app stores charging fees to any third party illegal? So then when those services shut down because they’re costing too much money to run, every developer has to run their own store and content distribution network? Then you have to install a different App Store or launcher on your phone for every app you want? Do you really think that would be better? How long do you think it would last before companies start pooling their resources to run joint app stores and then offer their services to other companies and then realize they need to charge a feee to keep the service online?

and don’t forget, it’s not “apple’s terms” - it’s google too. And whoever else Epic decides should actually distribute their software for free.

honestly the sheer amount of tunnel-visioned, irrational hate some people have towards Apple astounds me. You might as well be complaining that you have to pay for anything at all.
 

Ranulfo

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Uh huh. Epic would have a leg to stand on if they hadn't broke the TOS of Apple and Google to make their point. If they'd just stoppped selling their app and told people why, they'd have more of an argument that 30% is too much for apps. For some it no doubt is and I'm sympathetic but you're not going to win hearts and minds being raging hypocrites about the whole thing. Much like the devs who went Epic exclusive on PC crying about Steam's 30% all while also putting their games out on PS4 and Xbone with their 30% cut. I get the business reasons but don't sell me a load of baloney about the evil immorality of 30% revenue sharing.
 

deruberhanyok

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Break up a monopoly and set stronger precedents for breaking up other tech monopolies.

Are we talking about apple, who has something like a 15% worldwide market share, and to which there is a viable alternative platform (Android) available from dozens of manufacturers, in prices ranging from much lower than Apple to similarly high and everything in between, with any number of options depending on what features you want, which combined have a user base 5 times the size of them?

If so, you have a bizarre definition of monopoly.



everyone here jumping on the Apple hate train is doing two things:

1- conveniently ignoring that Epic pulled the same stunt with Google, got the same result, and is also suing them, but is not suing anyone else who also charges fees (like Microsoft with the Xbox store, where Fortnite is very popular)

2- not actually suggesting some kind of solution, just blindly parroting stuff about monopolies and how it should be illegal to charge a fee for a service.

So why should I assume that there’s a grey area in this discussion when all I’m seeing is a lot of talk about Apple is an illegal monopoly that should be broken up for daring to charge for a service?
 

Axman

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If so, you have a bizarre definition of monopoly.
It's not about market share, it's about business practices. I posted links to the FTC competition guidance earlier. The suit is available in full and explains the allegations.
 

cybereality

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It's a good point that Epic is suing Google as well. Even though alternate stores and side-loading are possible. Kind of weakens their position.
 
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