Epic Games Sues Apple

1_rick

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By the way, I'm not meaning to single you out, your post was just where I commented.

So why should I assume that there’s a grey area

scepter-gas-cans-fr1g501-64_1000.jpg1000 × 1000
 

Ocellaris

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Not a fan of this move by Epic. I spent money on VBucks in iOS, didn't use them, now those VBucks are gone. VBucks you earn in game are available on every platform. VBucks you purchase on a platform are locked to that platform, this isn’t immediately clear when purchasing VBucks...

Epic could just give me free VBucks to replace the missing fake money, but nope they want me to get a refund from Apple...

Since this is a problem if Epic’s own making, I can’t see myself spending more money on the Epic Store / Fortnite again. I’m fine if Epic wants to go after Apple, they should find a way to not screw over their customers first though.
 
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cybereality

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I’m fine if Epic wants to go after Apple, they should find a way to not screw over their customers first though.
Right. Not only did players get screwed, developers have as well (at least in the potential loss and/or uncertainty).

Before Epic pulled this stunt, everyone was happy. Gamers were gaming, developers were developing, and both Apple and Epic were both making billions of dollars.

No one was hurting. Now everyone is hurting, because of Epic's boneheaded PR stunt. While I don't really agree with Apple, I can still see this is a stunt, and so far it hasn't helped anyone.
 

DukenukemX

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MatPat does have a point here. Epic maybe looking to put their own store on iOS by using this to give them the legal rights to do so. I wonder how many exclusives Epic is going to buy on iOS?

 

cybereality

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It's not even a maybe, that's exactly what Epic is trying to do. Clearly stated in the emails Sweeney sent to Cook.

That part I agree with, I just don't think it was worth jeopardizing Unreal Engine over.
 

Tsumi

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Right. Not only did players get screwed, developers have as well (at least in the potential loss and/or uncertainty).

Before Epic pulled this stunt, everyone was happy. Gamers were gaming, developers were developing, and both Apple and Epic were both making billions of dollars.

No one was hurting. Now everyone is hurting, because of Epic's boneheaded PR stunt. While I don't really agree with Apple, I can still see this is a stunt, and so far it hasn't helped anyone.

A lot of times, hurting someone is the most direct way to calling said person's attention to your cause. If they hadn't involved Fortnite, the vast majority of the public would have completely ignored it. As it is now, not only is it a lawsuit in court, it is now a present subject in a lot of people's minds that may push legislative action while court action is proceeding.
 
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It's not even a maybe, that's exactly what Epic is trying to do. Clearly stated in the emails Sweeney sent to Cook.

That part I agree with, I just don't think it was worth jeopardizing Unreal Engine over.

Yeah that consumers want... 10 shitty app stores on their phone with the bare minimum done for developers chasing maximum profit, splitting all your app purchases, different login credentials etc... it is the Steam platform wars all over again.

Not to mention it breaks every system like iCloud backup of your apps etc.

Im glad Apple will NEVER let this happen.
 

noko

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Well a number of consumers bought Fortnite in good faith from Epic and Apple (Apple did receive 30% of the $). By Apple cutting off Fortnite from updates and other upgrades are they going to refund 30% back? Is Epic going to refund the 70% by not obeying the rules Apple set? Consumers I suspect could also get a lawsuit going against both companies, class action suite.

Monopoly's do not have to be world wide or Country wide, for example local cable channel could be a monopoly (sanction one) even though just limited to a given area. Basically able to control the price without competition. I don't think Epic has a case against Apple as a Monopoly since so far no court or oversight has concluded that. Have no clue where this will all lead, do find it interesting.
 
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Well a number of consumers bought Fortnite in good faith from Epic and Apple (Apple did receive 30% of the $). By Apple cutting off Fortnite from updates and other upgrades are they going to refund 30% back? Is Epic going to refund the 70% by not obeying the rules Apple set? Consumers I suspect could also get a lawsuit going against both companies, class action suite.

Monopoly's do not have to be world wide or Country wide, for example local cable channel could be a monopoly (sanction one) even though just limited to a given area. Basically able to control the price without competition. I don't think Epic has a case against Apple as a Monopoly since so far no court or oversight has concluded that. Have no clue where this will all lead, do find it interesting.

You didn’t buy fortnite, you bought ingame currency to spend on shit. The biggest suckers here are the consumers who support this sort of trash :ROFLMAO:
 

noko

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You didn’t buy fortnite, you bought ingame currency to spend on shit. The biggest suckers here are the consumers who support this sort of trash :ROFLMAO:
So those that differ from your tastes are suckers? :ROFLMAO: Ok. Now if I bought a game through a service and that service decided to change what was expected and what I paid for, I will probably be upset. In any case, I can see a new case from the users fighting back as well to Epic, Apple or both.
 

Tsumi

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Well a number of consumers bought Fortnite in good faith from Epic and Apple (Apple did receive 30% of the $). By Apple cutting off Fortnite from updates and other upgrades are they going to refund 30% back? Is Epic going to refund the 70% by not obeying the rules Apple set? Consumers I suspect could also get a lawsuit going against both companies, class action suite.

Monopoly's do not have to be world wide or Country wide, for example local cable channel could be a monopoly (sanction one) even though just limited to a given area. Basically able to control the price without competition. I don't think Epic has a case against Apple as a Monopoly since so far no court or oversight has concluded that. Have no clue where this will all lead, do find it interesting.

Consumers do not have a case against Apple. The developer violated the terms, and it is up to the developer to provide the refund. Of course, since the purchase was made through Apple, they have to facilitate it, but I don't see any indication that they wouldn't.
 

cybereality

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Yes, if Epic plans to have this be a drawn out multi-year litigation, they should do a right thing and refund the money these customers paid who now cannot play the game.

I've been following it on Twitter. Fortnite players are mad at Epic, they are not maybe the dumb 1984 drones Epic thought they would be.

It's plainly evident to everyone that Epic pulled this stunt, refused to comply with the court, and created a false emergency where there was none.

Kind of sad really. Now I'm questioning if I should even keep bothering with Unreal Engine at this point, seeing as Epic seems to have no concern for either their customers or developers.
 

Schro

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Yes, if Epic plans to have this be a drawn out multi-year litigation, they should do a right thing and refund the money these customers paid who now cannot play the game.

They have, actually. Purchases that have been made since the price drop have been refunded to my family at least. Also got to keep the items/vbucks
 

DukenukemX

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Yes, if Epic plans to have this be a drawn out multi-year litigation, they should do a right thing and refund the money these customers paid who now cannot play the game.

I've been following it on Twitter. Fortnite players are mad at Epic, they are not maybe the dumb 1984 drones Epic thought they would be.

It's plainly evident to everyone that Epic pulled this stunt, refused to comply with the court, and created a false emergency where there was none.

Kind of sad really. Now I'm questioning if I should even keep bothering with Unreal Engine at this point, seeing as Epic seems to have no concern for either their customers or developers.
Someone has Apple stock.
 

DukenukemX

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Clearly you have not been reading his posts.
Clearly someone else here has Apple stock. He's blaming Epic for this lawsuit, and seems to think Apple is innocent. Apple had this coming for a long time now and it took someone like Epic to bring it to light. The issue here is Apple device, Apple store, Apple rules, and you pay Apple 30%. As MatPat pointed out there's no limit where Apple could take this from micro-transactions to college tuition since some people use Apple devices to take courses online. The reality is you own the device and while Apple made it, they shouldn't determine how you use it and who you pay to get the apps for it. It's a monopoly and Apple needs to allow other stores to operate on iOS devices weather you like it or not. The only people who agree with Apple and their monopolistic control are those with Apple stock.
 
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Aireoth

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Clearly someone else here has Apple stock. He's blaming Epic for this lawsuit, and seems to think Apple is innocent. Apple had this coming for a long time now and it took someone like Epic to bring it to light. The issue here is Apple device, Apple store, Apple rules, and you pay Apple 30%. As MatPat pointed out there's no limit where Apple could take this from micro-transactions to college tuition since some people use Apple devices to take courses online. The reality is you own the device and while Apple made it, they shouldn't determine how you use it and who you pay to get the apps for it. It's a monopoly and Apple needs to allow other stores to operate on iOS devices weather you like it or not. The only people who agree with Apple and their monopolistic control are those with Apple stock.

Lol, ok there buddy, keep living in your head.

Maybe try reading the thread first? I know its a lot to ask.
 

NickM

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Okay-Apple's house and Epic agreed to the house rules when they requested a key.
Once they walked in, they took a steaming crap on the living room floor, then bitched when Apple tossed their ass.
Let me type this out real slow for those that seem to not get it-WHEN YOU AGREE TO A CONTRACT, DON'T ACT ALL INDIGNANT WHEN YOU GET CALLED OUT FOR BREAKING THE CONTRACT THAT YOU AGREED TO.
Don't like the terms, don't sign the contract. It's not rocket surgery, folks.
 

cybereality

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Well, I'm actually with Epic on certain parts. I'm not a fan of Apple, nor do I have Apple stock, but Epic has been reckless.

Maybe Apple has too much control, and it's true they have been heavy handed with many things (blocking xCloud and Stadia, strong-arming WordPress, etc.) but it's an open question whether they can do that if it's their platform.

My issue is that Epic has jeopardized exporting Unreal Engine games to Apple hardware, and this is a huge deal. As a developer, you expect to be able to publish to iOS (and macOS less so) and if they lose that it's a massive blow.
 

Ocellaris

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Clearly someone else here has Apple stock. He's blaming Epic for this lawsuit, and seems to think Apple is innocent. Apple had this coming for a long time now and it took someone like Epic to bring it to light. The issue here is Apple device, Apple store, Apple rules, and you pay Apple 30%. As MatPat pointed out there's no limit where Apple could take this from micro-transactions to college tuition since some people use Apple devices to take courses online. The reality is you own the device and while Apple made it, they shouldn't determine how you use it and who you pay to get the apps for it. It's a monopoly and Apple needs to allow other stores to operate on iOS devices weather you like it or not. The only people who agree with Apple and their monopolistic control are those with Apple stock.

Sure thing. Any whole they are at it, Epic should make their own app store for XBox, PlayStation, Samsung Smart TVs, and internet connected BMWs... Then setup a physical location right inside Walmart’s too, because it’s only fair Epic can dictate how others do business.
 

DukenukemX

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Sure thing. Any whole they are at it, Epic should make their own app store for XBox, PlayStation, Samsung Smart TVs, and internet connected BMWs... Then setup a physical location right inside Walmart’s too, because it’s only fair Epic can dictate how others do business.
I know you're playing me but, you're right. Other than the Warmart and BMW quote because they're retarded, but the rest makes sense. You bought the hardware and therefore you should be able to do with it what you want, including where you get your apps. Generally this is good for the consumer as this drives down prices.
 

Lakados

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Break up a monopoly and set stronger precedents for breaking up other tech monopolies.
In what way is Apple a monopoly? They are less than .1% of the server market, less than 10% of the Laptop/desktop market, and less than 15% of the mobile market... They have competitors in every single market they are in and in every one they are marginal at best. Except for one, their profit margin. Apple makes up less than 15% of the global mobile devices but like 60% of all the global revenue and that is what Epic is after. But in no way is Apple a Monopoly.
 

Aireoth

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In what way is Apple a monopoly? They are less than .1% of the server market, less than 10% of the Laptop/desktop market, and less than 15% of the mobile market... They have competitors in every single market they are in and in every one they are marginal at best. Except for one, their profit margin. Apple makes up less than 15% of the global mobile devices but like 60% of all the global revenue and that is what Epic is after. But in no way is Apple a Monopoly.

Lotta people are just haters, and for the record I don't have any apple stocks.
 

Lakados

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Epic could have worked with Apple initially to solve this, peacefully. Apple has all sorts of sweet heart deals with other companies to allow for exceptions but Epic wasn’t willing to work with Apple. They just wanted to flip the table and watch the building burn. They may win or they may loose, but it’s going to take so long that when the dust settles it won’t matter.

What Apple would likely do is just force alternative stores into a sandbox and not let them interact directly outside of that box. Nicely contain any possible mess and meet any likely legal ruling placed on them. Wouldn’t even be that hard as it already sandboxes all apps, just add a small performance hit.

I personally am on the fence on this one, on one hand an open platform give you freedom and blah blah blah. If that’s your business model and you are catering too it than why not. But if that isn’t your business model and you aren’t a Monopoly and there are plenty of alternatives to your product that exist why should the government step in and tell you your business model is wrong.

To me this squarely feels like an issue that a the market itself should resolve. If you are against the walled garden approach don’t buy it, or don’t support it. If you are OK with it than have at it, let the market decide what they want. Really for most what some see as a restriction or a freedom is a problem or a constraint for another. Android and iOS are different animals that cater to different users with different mentalities, trying to force them to be more alike feels wrong to me.
 
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Lakados

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As far as the argument that phones or tablets are General computing devices I would think that they have to be equally good at content creation as they are consumption to qualify as that. And to date I would be hard pressed if asked to argue that tablets and phones were productivity devices... but that’s only my take on a general computing device.
 
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deruberhanyok

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Lakados He has been spouting the whole “Apple is a monopoly” thing for a while now. Save your words, it won’t matter. He’s either just trolling and knows it, or he is remaining intentionally ignorant of the definition of the term, because acknowledging it would mean he is wrong.

one of my favorite things about news threads is how it helps to identify people for my ignore list. :) after a while it does make the conversation easier to follow too.
 

DukenukemX

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In what way is Apple a monopoly?
Apple is technically an Oligopoly, since they have total control over the devices they sell to people. So much so that Apple has removed Fortnite from Apple devices as Apple has the power to do so. Oligopoly is like a legal monopoly because you do technically have competition but you also don't within a limited section of the market.


They are less than .1% of the server market, less than 10% of the Laptop/desktop market, and less than 15% of the mobile market... They have competitors in every single market they are in and in every one they are marginal at best.
Within their 15% mobile market, Apple has no competitor. On Android you see a lot of other stores that you can install as an alternative to Google Play.
Except for one, their profit margin. Apple makes up less than 15% of the global mobile devices but like 60% of all the global revenue and that is what Epic is after. But in no way is Apple a Monopoly.
Also 15% of the mobile devices is nothing to sneeze at. And those who own iOS devices are more likely to spend money than Android owners as well.
 

NickM

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Apple is technically an Oligopoly, since they have total control over the devices they sell to people. So much so that Apple has removed Fortnite from Apple devices as Apple has the power to do so. Oligopoly is like a legal monopoly because you do technically have competition but you also don't within a limited section of the market.



Within their 15% mobile market, Apple has no competitor. On Android you see a lot of other stores that you can install as an alternative to Google Play.

Also 15% of the mobile devices is nothing to sneeze at. And those who own iOS devices are more likely to spend money than Android owners as well.

In the Fortnight market, Epic has 100% monopoly-so what? By your definition, Epic should be allowing other companies to market a Battle Royale game named Fortnight and running on the Unreal engine. And while we're on that road, other people should be able to create and sell stupid hats to sell in Fortnight and Epic should have to accept that.
So again, how is Apple a monopoly in the mobile games market?
 
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cybereality

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Monopoly is not the right word, and that wasn't what Epic was saying.

This case is based on an anti-trust violation.
anti-trust: opposed to trusts, monopolies, or other large combinations of business or capital which threaten fair competition; designed to protect trade and commerce from unfair business practices.
Epic Games, which makes Fortnite, then sued Apple in federal court, accusing the company of violating antitrust laws by forcing developers to use its payment systems.

The point (whether you agree or not) is that Apple is using unfair business practices by locking developers into only using their store and payment methods. This could be the case even if they don't control a majority of the market, just that they control one sector.
 

Aurelius

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Apple is technically an Oligopoly, since they have total control over the devices they sell to people. So much so that Apple has removed Fortnite from Apple devices as Apple has the power to do so. Oligopoly is like a legal monopoly because you do technically have competition but you also don't within a limited section of the market.



Within their 15% mobile market, Apple has no competitor. On Android you see a lot of other stores that you can install as an alternative to Google Play.

Also 15% of the mobile devices is nothing to sneeze at. And those who own iOS devices are more likely to spend money than Android owners as well.

The question is whether or not Apple is violating laws by maintaining the control it does within an oligopoly.

My beef is that a lot of "Epic will win, freedom at last!" hyperbole is based more on wishful thinking than practical reality. I see a lot of people who insist Apple has a monopoly, but if you ask them to provide proof, they either misinterpret the law or do a lot of handwaving that makes it clear they merely feel Apple has a monopoly. If the case were based solely on those terms, Epic would deservedly lose. There's a better argument to be made about having few options in an oligopoly, but that also means it can't cry "monopoly!" like some people want it to.
 

cybereality

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Also, people bring up Microsoft in these discussion, and they absolutely did and still do have a monopoly, and they basically got a slap on the wrist.

They put in a popup to choose a browser for a short while. Now they are back to their old tricks, reinstalling Edge and putting ads in the Start menu. No one seems to care anymore.
 

Ocellaris

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Apple is technically an Oligopoly, since they have total control over the devices they sell to people. So much so that Apple has removed Fortnite from Apple devices as Apple has the power to do so. Oligopoly is like a legal monopoly because you do technically have competition but you also don't within a limited section of the market.



Within their 15% mobile market, Apple has no competitor. On Android you see a lot of other stores that you can install as an alternative to Google Play.

Also 15% of the mobile devices is nothing to sneeze at. And those who own iOS devices are more likely to spend money than Android owners as well.

Apple didn’t remove Fortnite from anyone’s device. They removed Epic’s account so people can’t download it again. But the app is still installed for people and it even works (with last season’s content).
 
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