Epic Games Mega Game Sale (5/16-6/13)

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by zrikz, May 16, 2019.

  1. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah you're right, I was thinking of humble bundle.

    I totally forgot GOG was it's own thing. I guess there was nothing bringing me back there.
     
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  2. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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  3. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Your not really reading this correctly.

    Yes its true on paper they show a small loss on GOG. The thing is they changed their reporting methods in 2018... where revenues from CdProjectRed titles like GWENT (which makes up much of their revenue stream... as DOTA and Fortnight make money for Valve and Epic) are now attributed to CDprojectRed. Its explained in the PDF you linked.

    So from you can look at 2017... 01.07.2017 to 30.09.2017;
    $8,762,000 US in profit for CDprojectRed and $500,00 in profit for GOG

    Then they changed their accounting and between 01.01.2018 and 30.09.2018 they report;
    $18,058,000 US in profit for CDprojectRed and $450,000 us in losses for GOG

    They also spent a lot of money on promotions of their next project Cyberpunk and on advertising for GWENT. So their profits could be much higher if they choose to skimp on the future and cash in. Bottom line they are quite profitable, very profitable in fact.... although their store is relying pretty heavy on CDprojects own games. But I'm not sure that is really any different from Valve who I have little doubt makes the majority of their money off DOTA... and we all know Epic is planning to do nothing but burn Fortnight profits for at least 2 years.
     
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  4. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Someone could've easily could've bought it, waited for reviews, then refunded once the reviews came out. I'm not sure what is so hard to comprehend about that. Steams refund policy is pretty good and is is absolutely reasonable to use it in this scenario. Get it on Steam while you can and if you find it worth your money, keep it. If not, refund.

    You're not entitled to play a game. If someone does something that pisses you off maybe you shouldn't reward their behavior with money.

    No I don't. What you mentioned wasn't bait and switch which I pointed out. No reason to dwell on that more.

    Straw man. That is a separate topic; but I don't think anyone is happy with what those developers did. I'd ask for a refund personally (never heard of the game prior to their negative press). No reason they can't generate Steam keys for their backers day one.

    LOL. You're not entitled to people's games. They sell them with whatever terms they want (as long they are legal). If someone doesn't like it too bad.

    Fair enough, but that opinion is worth as much as someone who thinks a game should be worth $100.

    According to Kotaku they had ample notice, but some of the developers didn't understand it. Seems like one didn't understand that Epic would eat the price difference and another simply doesn't want to devalue their IP. Both fair complaints and shows that this was rushed and there was insufficient communication here. But if we learned anything about EGS, rushed and poor communication seems to be a core trait at this point. :p

    I assume it will get better long term but the store launch has been such a shit show.

    That isn't semantics. That is altering the definition of a term.

    Best of luck to them. Hopefully they're doing better than it appears because I do like (some) of the old games they have up for sale. Wish they'd put up GRAW 1/2 PC there but I think those are going to be lost to history due to some music license expiring.
     
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  5. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Most game developers would love to have 18 million US in profit every year (that 18 million is after they paid all their expenses including all the folks working on Cyberpunk)... especially in years when they haven't released anything major beyond DLC. :) Just look how fast a guy like Chris Roberts can burn through funds paying employees. lmao

    I know everyone assumes Steam is putting down profit hand over fist... but I think the real net profit number would shock us all if we could see it. I mean people ESTIMATE they bring in anywhere from 3-4.5 Billion in revenue. However how much of that is profit ? It doesn't cost nothing to run Steam... and Valve has a penchant for spending their profits on odd love projects. Its quite possible they are only really making 100 million in profit after costs. That isn't a little bit of money of course... but anyway revenue and net profit are 2 very different things.
     
  6. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Valve probably doesn't have a ton of employees, considering the amount of money they bring in. At one time, not sure if its true any more, they were making more per employee than Google and Apple and that was years before they broke the billion dollar a year mark. They might be pouring money into Gabe's passion projects, but its not like they're spending 10s-100s of millions on game development, they're putting next to zero effort into customer support, they probably automate a lot of the game approval process and don't have more than a handful of people doing that. The sheer size of Steam probably allows them to get some pretty darn good deals on bandwidth and server space. Running something like Steam wouldn't be cheap but unless they're putting billions into passion projects I highly doubt they're only making 100m in profit.
     
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  7. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Although you are likely right on most of your points. I think we will watch how long it takes Epic to get even close to Steams level... and then we can judge just how easy it is. lol I don't think it is as easy as all that or they would have more competition already. I have no doubt they are making good money... I'm just betting their margins are a lot tighter then people would think. I have little doubt their margins are in the single digits.
     
  8. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Sad thing is, its probably not THAT hard, at least when you have the kind of money Epic does. Yet Epic decided to take short cuts and launch way too soon. Epic has the money to throw at huge teams of people to get EGS up to where it needs to be, but they're not.
     
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  9. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    If you knew anything about software development you would realize it doesn't work like that. You can't just throw more people on something and have it get done faster. At some point there are too many cooks in the kitchen. It's like thinking you create a baby in a month because you have 9 women. Epic is obviously working on it as fast as they can because there's tons of money to be made. They're experts in software development and know what they're doing. They launched it as soon as they had the most important features ready and are adding the rest as they go. Every good software company does this.
     
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  10. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Fair point, but I disagree with them launching it with the most important features ready. This sale proves that EGS isn't fully ready. While some things are fairly "minor" like reviews and wishlists, a cart is pretty bloody important. The sheer fact that people are being locked out of their accounts for purchasing too many items because EGS lacks a cart feature says a lot about how far Epic still has to go. They are also taking an extremely long time to add things. Is a cart system really THIS complicated?
     
  11. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Again, how can someone buy a game on steam that was removed from steam? They could've bought it before it was removed is not an argument. Were they supposed to be fortune tellers? To know the game will be removed from steam a month before launch?

    Now are we supposed to buy the games because epic did nothing wrong and the launcher / exclusivity deals don't matter? Or are we supposed to stick it to them and not reward their behavior? Because that is where this entire argument started from, people saying they are boycotting the epic store.
    Just because it wasn't premeditated it still qualifies as bait and switch.
    You don't seem to know what a strawman is. I never misrepresented your argument. And games that were on kickstarter are not a separate topic, it is at the core of epic's shenanigans. We aren't talking about metro exodus exclusively. But the whole track record of epic since then.
    That's the point isn't it, than many people don't like it.
    Having to pay more for games than before is objectively making gaming less accessible. So it's actually a very important point to make.


    The point isn't whether it fits the legal definition of bait and switch, (for kickstarted games it does) but whether what they are doing is justified or not. It is still a shit move, and they deserve every piece of feces thrown at them.
     
  12. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Well it does sort of work that way... of course there is a point of diminishing returns as there are in most things.

    However yes adding more coders to a project gets it done faster... with one caveat. There needs to be good leadership. Yes it really is like the scene in Silicon Valley where they split the jobs up into smaller bits and pass them on to a project manager. That isn't something you can do making babies... but it is something you can do with a large software project. One person doesn't have to do it all... 10 people can do 100 things each or 100 people can do 10 things each. What is important is that someone is properly controlling the work load. (and coders are not skimping on notation)

    To be fair I would assume the company behind the Unreal engine has all that well in place. So yes adding more people (ie spending more money) would get the job done faster. Of course doubling the work force won't get it done twice as quick... but it will no doubt be a lot faster. Perhaps instead of burning money guaranteeing publishers sales projections, they should be burning a larger chunk of change getting their launcher and site up to par faster.
     
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  13. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    ^so much this, it's even a law ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks's_law
    Adding more people to a project slows it down. Similar to the general law of diminishing returns in economics. "Since software construction is inherently a systems effort -- an exercise in complex interrelationships--communication effort is great, and it quickly dominates the decrease in individual task time brought about by partitioning. Adding more programmers lengthens, not shortens, the schedule."
    Each new developer has to be introduced to the code base and development process which takes not only the new person's time but also requires assistance from a senior developer (guiding them through the build process, help them with pitfalls in the code base, much more detailed code reviews, etc) The more new developers you add to the project the more time has to be spent to bring them to up to speed where they can actually contribute.​
    It took Valve many years and millions of dollars to get the store where it's at today. No one starts with all the features that Steam has nor invests the millions of dollars beforehand without knowing if there is a need for it, that would be foolish.
    Epic will continue iterating and developing the store because that is how you build good software. Start with bare minimum and build from there.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  14. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    That is well and good... but Brooks law actually applies to projects that are behind schedule. The thinking being that if your over budget and or behind schedule... adding more labour will indeed slow rather then speed completion.

    Many books and papers have been written on the subject and they all agree that adding people EARLY doesn't fall into the pitfalls of brooks law. You are not talking management and training resources away from the effort to finish... as your just starting.

    Now is the time to add more people and speed production. Not in 6 months when cloud saves have slipped in the schedule or other big ticket features users are noticing.

    Of course I don't think any of us know how many people Epic has on the project. Perhaps internally much of the heavy lifting is done and they are simply rolling things out slowly so they can take care of issues a few at a time rather then dealing with a potential shit show of buggy features... where people will notice if it takes weeks to fix them.

    Guess we'll see if they manage to nail their own public schedule great... we'll see if they start missing things. Right now it seems like they just tried to do a sale without putting proper control options in the publishers dev tools. Which sounds pretty terrible.
     
  15. HAL_404

    HAL_404 Limp Gawd

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    went to the Epic Mega Sale at their store ... where are the Paradox Interactive and Ubisoft games?
     
  16. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    They were the two major publishers that pulled their stuff from the store because they didn't agree to the sale.
     
  17. dark_reign

    dark_reign 2[H]4U

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    How did this get passed over in Epic's sales department? Start a mega game sale before contacting all publishers? LOL
     
  18. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    I think the ewoks might throw a party if Randy P ends having to wearing clown shoes and refer to himself as Mary.
     
  19. Newbie_52

    Newbie_52 n00b

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  20. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

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    for fucks sake, almost gave up trying to get the free game lol. Tried to create an account and it did not like any of Keepass's suggestions, then the captcha wasn't working, then it finally tells me I already have an account. That's news to me, but okay, reset the damn password and finally (I think) added Stories Untold to my account. Hopefully the client is at least not as much of a cluster of fucks as their website >.>

    Anyway, I think it's stupid of the publishers to pull their games and/or to be all woe-is-me (sp?) especially when Epic is covering the difference in the sale price so they aren't even losing money. A sale is not "devaluing their IP" lol, it's getting a larger userbase from people that would not have bought at the higher price to begin with along with getting goodwill from gamers that would have bought at full price but now got a deal and are likely more likely to be that much more interested in a sequel or future games from them. These publishers whining about the sale (and a sale where they aren't even losing any money at that) just makes them look like greedy bastards from my perspective :p Might be a new store, but it's the same old publishers stuck in their same old ways -.-

    Edit: well, they got me, I picked up Walking Dead: The Final Season. For $4.99 I figured that's a deal I couldn't pass up and I didn't have the whole series on Steam anyway. Close to the Sun looked interesting, but the video gave me a bit of motion sickness feeling so I am wary of trying that one :/.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  21. SmokeRngs

    SmokeRngs [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008

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    Actually, a sale with a price too low even if the publisher isn't directly losing money on those specific sales can cause a loss of money in the long term. Once that super low sale price gets out there, there are many people who will absolutely refuse to buy at the much higher price and will scoff at a "normal" sale price. When you're looking at additional sales for a year or two or five, that is important.

    It's also an issue when games are on other storefronts. In most cases, these games are already sold on other storefronts or will be before too long. If the sale price is considered too low, it can and will affect sales on other storefronts who will not have sales with prices that low.

    There is also the perception issue. Many of these publishers put out high profile and high dollar games. To have the prices of their games, even if just for a short sale, lowered too much it will look as if the game simply isn't selling. That may not be the case but the perception is out there of some sort of problem. I don't know if you've ever noticed it but popular games simply don't get huge amounts knocked off the price even for "mega sales" as long as the game is still selling and isn't older than dirt. This is where the perception comes in. Once a game is put on sale for such a low price, the perceived value of the game is reduced which makes it much more difficult to sell the game at normal prices.
     
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  22. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard as it Gets

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    This is very true. If I reference Cheapshark and discover the historical low price for Borderlands 2 is $3.99; then $3.99 is all I'm willing to pay for it. I don't care which storefront it shows up at in the future. I completely understand the developer's concerns with this sale devaluing their IP.
     
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  23. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

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    Fair enough and good points but if the sale price is all it's worth to you then it's all it's worth to you and they can either get a sale of a digital good that costs almost nothing to license you a copy of or not. Heck if you hold out long enough and it never hits a price you are willing to pay it'll be abandonware and free heh. I mean if they never have (those) sales that's their choice but it's also the gamer's choice not to play that (pricing) game heh. If they dont want to capture more sales at various proce points oh well. For them it must balance out to lose some sales but keep the pricing as close to msrp as possible. Or they are just stuck in their old ways like the music industry was for the longest time. On the bright side it means they arent doing lower pricing but they also arent doing the wring as much as our algorithms determine each individual can possibly pay pricing models like the airline industry :).

    In this EGS situation though i suppose epic would have been better off separating the $10 discount and the sale and just introducing a cashback incentive or something so that the prices on the storefront still looked good to the publishers ;} That and actually communicate with them before launching the mega sale hah
     
  24. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    For everyone upset about publishers pulling games because they feel sales diminish their games value. The publishers are 100% correct. Sales diminish the value of a product.

    Everyone here knows how that goes. If any store has a product on sale on the semi regular... people skip that product until they can get it on sale. Its true of everything.

    Epic expecting publishers to happily accept even a $10 discount on pre order games is insane. It tells me that no one at Epic has taken a marketing or economics class in their life. Or at least the people in charge haven't.

    The same thing happens with Steam.... if you miss a sale on a game that is 30 bucks but was on for 20. Do you say oh I missed the sale I'll just spend 30, or do you wait for the next sale ? Most people wait for the next sale... cause if it was on sale once it will be again.

    We all know games go on sale 6 months or so after they release if there good and sooner if there not. If I was selling pre releases today of something like borderlands 3 that releases mid September. Of course I don't wanna discount it one penny. Else people that may have purchased will simply wait... release in Sept. If you miss that Epic sale... just wait for the xmas sale that will start no doubt a week or two after it launches. Clearly Epic would be setting a precedent that their sales apply to all titles even new ones and even pre orders.

    Anyway ya Epic was beyond stupid to thing publishers would want to discount pre orders and games in their iitial sales windows.
     
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  25. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    LOL. Yes, you could've bought the game before it was removed as I mentioned previously. You had months to do so with a generous return policy for pre-orders. Your 14 day return window starts the day the game goes live. You don't have to be a fortune teller, the gaming press and Steam store page mentioned this. Obviously not everyone would get wind of this beforehand but that is life. If you didn't put down money you're not owed anything.

    This is a personal matter and you're going to have to make up your own mind. But purchasing Metro for EGS really sends them a tough message. I'm sure Deep Silver will understand your complaints now. LOL.

    I do, and I have a more firm understanding of what it means than you do for the term "bait and switch" apparently. Yes that is a separate topic.

    And you can always complain, but if your arguments are "jump to conclusion" based, have no proof, wrong and backed up by vague sources expected to be called out on it.

    The point went over your head. TLDR: I appreciate your opinion, but its as worthless as mine in the grand scheme of things. Frankly I think people who ask for under $60 (MSRP) for a AAA game to be cheapskates. That doesn't mean I'm happy paying $60 for games and I try to find deals as I do with everything. If you live in an area where your wages cannot support games at that price perhaps you should turn attention to your government's economic/political system instead of game prices largely made by foreign companies.

    [/QUOTE]

    "I knew I was probably wrong, but he looked like a murderer so I killed him". Great logic there. Again, point over your head. You make a claim and use a term which doesn't fit to artificially throw a negative spin on something even if the usage of said term isn't correct. Perhaps you should get into journalism. :p

    The Kickstarter game is indeed another topic entirely as mentioned. Depending on what their rewards mentioned they may legally be in the clear though. Very lame in any case.

    I think the part in bold is debatable. Honestly, it seems like at launch it was too skimpy in terms of features. It was as bare bones as it got. It is getting there though. Rest of your post is spot on though.
     
  26. luisxd

    luisxd n00b

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    the beginning of the end of epic store
     
  27. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Aw, how adorable. Another EGS basher.
     
  28. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    Considering how many games i've bought during the sale, which was only because of the sale - I think they are probably doing fine.
     
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