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Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by zrikz, May 16, 2019.
great time to buy Metro Exodus...
Actually one indie dev admitted in an interview that they view the backlash caused by becoming exclusive as free publicity.
No, you stated a false equivalence. The games that are exclusive to steam were never advertised on any other platform previously.
You know what blow the fuse: It's coming to steam - >now it's not coming to steam. or coming one year late to steam. Bait and switch.
They might have gotten away with Quantic dream or other stuff that was never announced as a steam release. There would still have been some backlash but not as brutal, and they'd certainly have a moral leg to stand on if there was no bait and switch involved.
I mean why the effing eff, couldn't they start off with this type of sale when Metro Exodus released ? They sell it for 40 and eat the 20 and steam sells it for 60. They'd have been celebrated as the saviors of PC gaming. Sane people could buy it for 40 from them, fanboys buy it for 60 from steam. But instead they choose to become the villain, with barging in doing a bunch of shitty things that hurt a ton of people. And now they are trying to put out the fires they started. But it won't work. I won't forget $50 = €60, ever.
And in the end anyone can argue that the public perception is wrong. But it is denying reality. The fact is that there were other options to gain market share and they choose the worst one. The one they knew will cause backlash. But I think they expected it to blow over by now. Well it hasn't.
Some games were removed from EGS mega sale
This is not desperation...it is actually a very smart attempt to pull users into the epic store. They are forgoing some profits now for a much larger audience (and profits) later. Smart folks over there at epic - even if I personally dislike the idea of their store and buying timed exclusives.
Saw that last night too. They were removed because the dev's didn't want them included on the sale, not EGS except for UBI which stated there's some kind of i$$ue between their respective stores. To be fair, on Steam, I've seen sales where titles(usually newer but not always) were simply not included or got maybe $1-$5 dollars off.
Diff is Steam doesn't force any publisher into sale pricing. An incentive is offered and they can opt in if they want.
In EGS's case they set the pricing for third parties without permission, devaluing the IP of these publishers' titles in the process.
The only thing Epic likely forced was the extra $10 off anything over $14.99 thing. All other sale prices were likely decided by the publishers. I'd hope Epic informed studios before the sale about the other incentive, but maybe not.
I was thinking this was a Steam Sale. I got excited!
Then I realized this was for Epic Store.
I only installed the client to play Unreal Tournament one time and hated it. I also had to retrieve my account from someone in taiwan. Epic Store has monthly hacks and I'm prone to believe it at that point.
It would've been a smart attempt back in February. Now it does seem like desperation, and an indicator that active user count is not what they predicted. It is highly unlikely that they'd do something like this out of the blue if their goals for user count were met. Hell active users might even be declining. I know I uninstalled the epic launcher after finishing exodus, and haven't touched it since.
They poisoned their own well, and now don't understand why no one wants to drink from it.
So was it desperation when Steam did their first major sale? Was it for Uplay? Origin? GOG? As much as the hivemind around here and other forums scream about EGS (usually well deserved, mind you) all this "they're desperate" stuff comes out of people wanting it to be true but offering absolutely zero proof to back it up. To me, I don't see it as desperation. I see it as Epic doing what they've been doing since they announced the store. Throwing around huge piles of cash to bring gamers and studios into the fold. EGS has not been around long enough and Epic still has waaaaay too much money for this to be a desperation move.
We don't know the numbers and they'll never tell. All I know is what is the public perception, and the public perception tells me that they are doing something very wrong.
The fact that a sale is perceived by many as a negative thing from them is a direct result of their previous (and still ongoing) actions, there is no denying that.
Desperation doesn't mean they are running out of money, it means their efforts don't have the desired results, and they are trying desperately to meet those numbers whatever they are.
The only hivemind here are the people who are dismissing the most obvious explanation for everything epic does, just so they can pretend everything epic does is above the table and perfectly fair.
During steam sales developers are themselves allowed to set the sale price. It's a completely different scenario, and not steam throwing around money.
PS: And I'm quite tired of the "steam bad" argument. Steam is irrelevant to this, and whatever steam does or doesn't do is no justification for anything epic does.
Public perception is a bit of a misnomer here. Forums like this are not the general public, we have a tendency to engage in circle jerks and forget that there is a world outside of our little groups. By and large I'd imagine most people don't care what store a game is sold on, as long as they can find it and the store works (which seems to be an issue with EGS during this sale).
Not a whole lot of people often create articles or forum threads to talk about how awesome something is. Us internet peoples like hate columns.
I imagine a large group also still post hate and then buy their favorite game anyways. Or after the 1 year exclusivity is over buy it then. Which still puts money into the pockets of publishers that go for these deals. The devs and publishers are equal to blame in this. Though gaming is a business, stopped feeling like a form of art long ago for me.
It would be a bad assumption to try to minimize the distaste for EGS as somehow limited to forums like this.
Is this really a big deal though? Anyone who purchased on Steam got their game on Steam and they had around a month of notice. This isn't the first time and certainly won't be the last time a game has some big change before release. Some games even change platform or get delayed on an entire platform for a year (Rise of Tomb Raider comes to mind). I can think of a number of games that were advertised for a platform and never ended up showing up at all.
Unless you paid for a Steam copy you're not owed anything. But again, everyone who paid got their Steam game on the date advertised. By definition that wouldn't be bait & switch: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bait--and--switch
I don't think Epic forces anyone into sales but they are eating the loss; the publishers are still making the full value of the sale. If I'm wrong do correct me.
I can see some publishers still being upset with this though. Even if they get full value it may devalue the IP as you said. Is it worth getting more sales and still get full margins or less sales while keeping the IP high in value? I suppose it varies from game to game and publishers/developers have a right to complain if they can't opt out of a sale.
You know in the current time not many like to pre-order games. Many wait for release and then buy games, as I was doing with metro exodus, only to fall on my face when they announced epic exclusivity. And I had to pay more for the game than I expected.
I know the dictionary definition of bait and switch thank you very much. You know what I meant, you know what they are doing / did is bad, withdrawing games that are already announced for a release. Again you're trying to exonerate epic based on semantics. And again I ask why? Why can't you just admit that what they are doing is not right, and certainly not pro-consumer?
Games are not collectors items. A sale is a sale, there is nothing to devalue if they get full profits from each sale. Or are games somehow more valuable if less people bought them? LOL, if that were the case I'd understand going to the epic store.
Misnomer? Aren't we part of the public? And do you honestly think it is restricted to small forums like these? It might not interest the fortnite casual, but I doubt many of the HC gaming community exist outside of this sphere. And within it the dislike is almost universal, except for some people shilling for epic, for some undecipherable reason. I'm trying to figure out really, but so far couldn't. I suspect some have an axe to grind with steam, due to some bad customer experience, or simple jealousy. But that can't be all. I certainly can't come up with a legitimate reason to white knight for the epic megastore.
Most of the pc gamer crowd aren’t “hardcore”, at least in the traditional sense of the word. Most people just want to play games and ignore the drama that goes on within the community. If forums like this or even dedicated gaming forums were an accurate representation of the entire pc gaming community then sales of many titles and pieces of hardware would likely be a hell of a lot different. Even the Steam forums don’t necessarily represent the entire Steam audience.
Personally, I’m more interested in trying to get and talk about real information over people’s feelings and how that effects their view on things. I’m neither anti nor pro EGS or Steam. They’re multi-billion dollar corporations, they’re both shit in their own ways. I’d like Epic to get their shit together and get EGS to a point where it needs to be in order to put pressure on Valve, something they sorely need.
You can always buy on Steam, wait for reviews, and then refund if you think it wouldn't have been worth it.
Or you could've skipped it. It isn't immoral but it wasn't a great idea to make the change so close to release. They're not obligated to sell at certain places or certain prices and you're not obligated to buy it. Their loss.
I actually don't know what you meant. It either is or it isn't. Dumb move? Sure. Will Deep Silver end up paying the price for it? Maybe, but from the sounds of it so far not really. We'll have to check back and see how they made out 2-3 years down the line.
I never claimed this to be pro-consumer. But it isn't "wrong" either. As long as people get what they paid for everyone is in the clear. If people didn't like the terms they could've walked.
You're wrong when it comes to IP valuation and consumer perception of value. If a game comes out for $60 and next month goes down to $30 how many people will be willing to buy the sequel for $60 on launch day? Not as many. Do it frequently enough and people will be conditioned to wait for a large sale after a short time frame. This has proved problematic for many developers/publishers which is why Steam sales are a shadow of their former self.
If a developer is forced to put their game on sale so shortly after (or even before) release I can see why they're pissed. They have get more short term profits but what about long term for their IPs? Again, the situation will vary from IP to IP. But there is certainly reason to be upset. That being said, I assume Epic would allow developers to opt out but if they can't that may explain why some developers pulled their games from sale temporarily.
Honestly this is a really good sale. People can hate all they want, i've picked up a few games for a decent price. They also are applying the discount for pre-orders as well, so I used it to pickup Detroit Become Human, etc.
Buy the game on steam that was removed from steam? What are you on about?
And here we go again: "You could've skipped it" It's always my fault isn't it? Why would I want to skip it? The very argument used by epic fanboys back then was: It's your loss if you don't buy it because it's a different store! Now it's suddenly their loss? ROTFLMAO.
You do know just admitting it would be admitting wrongdoing on epic's part. And the games that were crowdfunded? That fulfills even the dictionary definition of bait and switch, so no there is no way for you to weasel out of this one. And it doesn't matter whether it will hurt anyone financially in the long term or not. The ends don't justify the means. What they are doing is not "dumb" it is morally wrong, and hurting the gaming community, not making it better for anyone.
Yeah the people could always punish themselves by not playing the games they waited for years for. It's their fault really, epic did nothing wrong here! LOL
Yeah I missed that aspect. But then again I don't think games are worth $60 to begin with.
Apparently epic did the sale without consulting publishers first. Which again shows desperation or incompetence.
Have state of the art pc, refuses to install programs.
Maybe you should replace it with an abacus.
I never understood the hate for Epic/EGS. If you’re mad about exclusivity, be mad at the developer who accepted the offer which limited your convenience. Same goes for their game development (i.e. Fortnite and micro transactions), they didn’t create these practices, they’re just another company who capitalized on them.
If anything, I could understand being annoyed about lack of features on the new platform (wishlist, key activations, some basic search filters, etc).
On a different note, I picked up Operencia last night and have really been enjoying it. It reminds me a whole lot of Might and Magic X, from the graphics to the gameplay. I’d definitely check it out if you’re into that style of dungeon crawler ($10 on EGS right now).
I'm not a lawyer but I don't think it qualifies as bait and switch. The dictionary definition of bait and switch is "a sales tactic in which a customer is attracted by the advertisement of a low-priced item but is then encouraged to buy a higher-priced one" and "the ploy of offering a person something desirable to gain favor (such as political support) then thwarting expectations with something less desirable". Bait and switch would require them to have intended to trick the customer from the get go. Putting the game on a different digital store front really does not qualify as bait and switch. Its shitty and crowdfunded games should have their Epic deal include a clause that allows them to put the game on Steam for those people that backed the game during the campaign, but nothing seems to meet the definition of bait and switch.
2K Games pulls Borderlands 3 from mega-desperation sale
Mhm. Its looking like Epic either didn't inform publishers about the additional discount or didn't disclose it in a clear manner. Either way its pretty bad form and it is going to leave a lot of publishers pissed off. Might even be a breach of contract in some situations.
Wow, can't even do a sale correctly haha
Steam had some growing pains with their first couple sales, a lot of games jumping around in price and going off sale, but nothing quite to this level.
Yep, Steam has never ever ever had issues during a sale. If you don't count that time they exposed customer data or every fricken sale when the servers go down because they can't seem to forcast demand even thought they've been doing this stuff for years.
EPIC gets untold amounts of hate for,... .. wait for it,.. ... ..Discounting Games Too Much.
"But Steeeem" -- j/k. It's not technical glitches that publishers are abruptly pulling their titles from this shitshow over.
And its only "hate" if you're intentionally ignoring context. If Epic had just started out with discounting titles instead of desperately bribing publishers to remove their titles from a competing store, they'd be receiving a whole different welcome.
On the bright side, at least these publishers are getting a taste of what dealing with Epic is going to be like.
Epic bribed no one. The publishers are in business to make money, Epic had the money to give them fulfilling what the publishers are in business for.
The bright side I see is that the publishers have been paid, now maybe they are not happy that this sale violated MAP but that was fixed in a matter of hours.
Epic will improve or die, I for one hope they improve. The Steam monopoly needs competition.
I see we're still arguing semantics. Which is irrelevant. To many people steam is more attractive. So switching stores makes the product less valuable and less desirable to them. And who says you have to have intent beforehand? So if I decide to screw over my partner in the middle of a deal, despite having no intention of doing it beforehand I'm not liable? LOL. People arguing for epic never cease to surprise me. This is worth it just for the laughs I get out of it.
I am not so sure Epic is the competition we are looking for.
At least stores like GOG offer something to consumers over Steam. All Epic seems to be offering is... a better cut for publishers. Why do I care about that ?
Half kidding... I am not really convinced their cut is any better for publishers anyway. It like saying google ads are more expensive then bing ads... well of course they are.
What Epic is doing with the exclusives ... ya Bribe seems like the best word. They are saying what are your sales projections for the first 6 months.... Ok we promise to pay you whatever your short after 6 months. Then you can sell anywhere you want. Of course that is a great deal if your a Publisher... you can say we plan to sell 6 million copies and if Epic says you will get paid for 6 million copies no matter what, that is more then attractive. If your a publisher you can say to your investors months before you even release a product.. we have sold 6 million copies in the first 6 months, before even one copy is sold. Not a bad deal for them. Fortnight money is nice while it lasts.
Who's arguing for Epic? I very fucking clearly said that it's shitty. I just disagree with it being bait and switch. Just because someone doesn't have a hate boner for Epic and EGS doesn't mean they're defending them or some bullshit.
Meanwhile Steep on uPlay is free!
I said nothing about steam, just poking fun at epic.
I don't think you can count GOG as competition when most of the "games" they're selling are just steam keys.
I think you're confusing GOG with Greenmangaming. GOG is owned by CDProjekt and focuses on DRM-free games.