Elon Musk’s defamation trial over ‘pedo guy’ tweet kicks off in Los Angeles

N4CR

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No kidding. Everyone needs to watch what they say in public but when you are a CEO and extremely wealthy, that goes extra. What you say can hurt your reputation, but it can also be something that is legally actionable. Now for most people, no someone will probably not sue you for calling them a pedophile, unless it is done in such a way that causes actual harm to them. However if you are rich, well you just gave them a shot at some pretty easy money. As I said earlier: It is defamation per se, it is legally actionable so is it a surprise he's going for it, knowing that Musk has the money to pay out?



Ya well regardless of truth of that statement that all westerners in Thailand are just there for sex (hint: it's not true) that doesn't matter to a court. "Everyone knows" is not an admissible statement. So since calling someone a pedophile is defamation per se in California, and since this was done in a public forum where it can't be claimed it wasn't said there are only two possible defenses:

1) Prove that indeed the guy is a pedophile. Even that might not work as really what Musk would have to prove is that he had knowledge at the time of making the statement that it was true. Regardless you'd need some real evidence not "everyone knows".

2) Prove that the statement was made in jest or hyperbole and is something that no reasonable person could take as serious and true. Things like the hilarious stuff John Oliver did in his song about Bob Murray. Here you "everyone knows" actually works against that, because if people are likely to believe such a thing can be true, then the defense that it was hyperbole isn't going to hold.
Yeah not all westerners are there for sex, (well I was partially - with a girlfriend who visited with me when I went on holiday..) but IIRC this guy was working in a training/teaching style capacity around kids prior so there is a higher chance than not..
And I fully agree, there isn't going to be an easy way for him to prove it. However they were both trolling each other really so I think it's enough grounds to dismiss it on that in a fair environment.

Looks like that was what happened;

Elon Musk’s tweets calling caver Vernon Unsworth, who was involved in the rescue of 13 people from a cave in Thailand, a “pedo guy” do not meet the legal standard for defamation, a jury found Friday afternoon. As a result, Musk will not be liable for damages.

Sense prevailed thankfully. Musk was just trying to help as well..


If Elon Musk was the NY Times then the guy should sue but Musk was tweeting as a private citizen douche. Speaking of the NY Times, they and other MSM outlets have gotten away with libel too.
Yeah what the media says about Trump on a daily basis is far worse. Still not a good look for Musk though he needs to keep that shit in check.
 

Meeho

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Sense prevailed thankfully. Musk was just trying to help as well..
No, he wasn't. He used a real life tragedy to promote his business. Eiher that or he's genuinely retarded, which I don't believe. And when he got called out, he acted like a pissy child, calling the guy a "pedo" and a "child rapist". Presumably he will be fine when anyone with a reach in millions calls him the same from now on or writes an article or two in a major publication.
 

Snowdog

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Sense prevailed thankfully. Musk was just trying to help as well..
This.

Musk essentially offered to build them a pressure vessel to get the kids out. The guy could have just said, it won't fit into the spaces we are working with. Instead he had to insult Elon and tell him to stick it up his ass. So Elon insulted him back.

You don't trade insults with someone, and then sue them cause they "defamed" you.

If that was the standard, I am sure half the people on this forum would be guilty.
 

kirbyrj

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The fact that people here are posting about the possibility that Unsworth is a pedophile shows exactly why he should have won his lawsuit in a world of millions of twitter followers. There is a qualitative difference between "shove the sub up your ass" and "you're a pedophile" when it plays out in front of millions.
 
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did you try to short tesla stock or something?

this guy is out for a pay day.

people have ben called far worse on twitter but this guy was called something by a billionaire.

he felt dirtied lol no he felt broke.

and some ambulance chaser is trying to get him rich.
I've called people worse, shouldn't sue over it. Grow a sack and get over it.
Few things worse than calling a person a pedo. Had I brother I called a faggot when he picked up my friend in the early 90s. Got spread to his high school and made his life a living hell. He was bullied so bad he had to move up north to live with our uncle and grandparents. While cleaning his side of the room, we found a butcher knife under the mattress, I can't imagine how bad it would've been if I called him a pedo.
I worked in retail for more than 20 years, customers will remember and spread bad experiences far more than good ones, this is no different with slander.
Musk should've chosen his words better and not spew out damaging lies.
 

Mega6

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There is no doubt Musk has sway, influence and a lot of followers. It's one thing for a regular person to call you a Pedo, it's another for someone famous to do so. However, the law should not distinguish between the two. Morally, it was the wrong thing to do - especially with Musk's influence. Legally.. guess not.
 

Snowdog

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The fact that people here are posting about the possibility that Unsworth is a pedophile shows exactly why he should have won his lawsuit in a world of millions of twitter followers. There is a qualitative difference between "shove the sub up your ass" and "you're a pedophile" when it plays out in front of millions.
Sure they are different, but no reasonable person would see that exchange, and it take for anything other than it was, two people trading insults, and neither would they reasonably mistake that the guy was a pedophile

It takes more than trading insults to rise to the level of defamation.

I know some of you really hate Musk, but that isn't a reason to lower the bar for legal defamation.

The USA is already too litigation happy as it is.
 

kirbyrj

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Sure they are different, but no reasonable person would see that exchange, and it take for anything other than it was, two people trading insults, and neither would they reasonably mistake that the guy was a pedophile

It takes more than trading insults to rise to the level of defamation.

I know some of you really hate Musk, but that isn't a reason to lower the bar for legal defamation.

The USA is already too litigation happy as it is.
The problem is people actually do think he's a pedophile because Musk said it. See here:

Wasn't the guy an actual pedo?
Lol everyone knows seedy old western men working with kids in thailand are pedos a vast majority of the time. Proving it 100% in this case is just a little more difficult.
And that's only a small subset of people in this forum let alone any number of people who follow Musk.

Trading insults seems to imply that the other party knows it's an insult. There is little to no reason to believe Unsworth knows Musk in any capacity other than he got called a pedophile on twitter and Musk tried to "help" by sending in equipment that he did not believe was worth the time or effort to deploy.

If this were someone like the LAPD calling someone a pedophile on their twitter feed who insulted the department instead of Musk, I guarantee the outcome would have been different.
 
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Meeho

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Sure they are different, but no reasonable person would see that exchange, and it take for anything other than it was, two people trading insults, and neither would they reasonably mistake that the guy was a pedophile
First of all, pedo is rarely used as an insult, it's almost always based on a perception of some sort of age related sexual impropriety. Second of all, Musk expanded on the statement with "evidence" and repeated it on other occasions with phrases such as "child rapist". That isn't an insult, that's an accusation. It helps when you are popular and the majority sucks your dick and sees you as a messiah, so you get to play a retard and brush it off as a mere insult when you get called to answer for your shitty behavior and a jury of your worshipers peers finds you innocent.
 

N4CR

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No, he wasn't. He used a real life tragedy to promote his business. Eiher that or he's genuinely retarded, which I don't believe. And when he got called out, he acted like a pissy child, calling the guy a "pedo" and a "child rapist". Presumably he will be fine when anyone with a reach in millions calls him the same from now on or writes an article or two in a major publication.
You could say that about any of the governments and other people involved who offered help and were turned down. Some did help, some didn't. It's no different. He tried to help even though he apparently didn't know what he was doing with the design according to cave experts. He went in those caves himself to see if it would be appropriate. Maybe it was PR, maybe it wasn't That part is just like calling someone a pedo as an insult in a troll battle, his actions on twatbook with that guy are a pretty bad look for a public facing individual, don't get me wrong there.
People call POTUS worse things regularly who are on international television and go well, well beyond a 'pedo' shit-tweet flinging fight. Equality is paramount and mandatory at law.

The problem is people actually do think he's a pedophile because Musk said it. See here:





And that's only a small subset of people in this forum let alone any number of people who follow Musk.

Trading insults seems to imply that the other party knows it's an insult. There is little to no reason to believe Unsworth knows Musk in any capacity other than he got called a pedophile on twitter and Musk tried to "help" by sending in equipment that he did not believe was worth the time or effort to deploy.

If this were someone like the LAPD calling someone a pedophile on their twitter feed who insulted the department instead of Musk, I guarantee the outcome would have been different.
That correlation (foreign dudes and kids in Thailand) has been around for far, far longer than Musk tweeting it.
You have ignored the fact that they had been discussing back and forth and insults had been levied from both sides.

The diver, who splits his time between the UK and Thailand, had told Musk to 'stick his submarine where it hurts', adding that the offer was a 'PR stunt' that 'had absolutely no chance of working'.
Musk calling him a Pedo is a bit much but really they are both pretty harsh and unprofessional comments. Musk also claimed to do digging on him and his activities. Some red flags that I would consider as such; traveled between Thailand and England often, lived over 30 year period in Pattaya, didn't marry until 7 years before the story happened, surely he must just love that beach lifestyle when not in a cave... I've been in caves on the opposite side of that sea, there are plenty but there which can be very difficult but majority of the caves around Pattaya are extremely commercialized and there are better areas for that.. Pattaya is known very well for something else. Partying and kid fucking.
There is no direct proof of either, but both insults are not easily proven.

Case dismissed is the right thing to do here. It's a shitfest and shouldn't be near a court.
 

Snowdog

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If this were someone like the LAPD calling someone a pedophile on their twitter feed who insulted the department instead of Musk, I guarantee the outcome would have been different.
What a brain dead comparison. The LAPD is regularly engaged in reporting threats to the public, so them reporting someone is a pedophile, carries some expectation of accuracy in reporting criminal threats.
 

kirbyrj

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What a brain dead comparison. The LAPD is regularly engaged in reporting threats to the public, so them reporting someone is a pedophile, carries some expectation of accuracy in reporting criminal threats.
Ignoring the main point about the reach of Musk's twitter account and attacking the messenger as brain dead. Bravo, dip shit. Oh wait, evidently, that's protected speech now because we're engaging in insults during a debate. Maybe I should appeal the inevitable "reported post" to a court in California.

At the end of the day, there is absolutely no excuse for Musk's actions. The fact that he took this to trial isn't a positive for him. It just proves the point that he is more concerned about his ego than anything else. Actual lawyers were surprised by the verdict citing the preponderance of evidence in the case against Musk. Just goes to prove that a jury is usually filled with people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty, and/or their unwillingness to find against a popular businessman in their community vs a British ex-pat.
 
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kirbyrj

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You could say that about any of the governments and other people involved who offered help and were turned down. Some did help, some didn't. It's no different. He tried to help even though he apparently didn't know what he was doing with the design according to cave experts. He went in those caves himself to see if it would be appropriate. Maybe it was PR, maybe it wasn't That part is just like calling someone a pedo as an insult in a troll battle, his actions on twatbook with that guy are a pretty bad look for a public facing individual, don't get me wrong there.
People call POTUS worse things regularly who are on international television and go well, well beyond a 'pedo' shit-tweet flinging fight. Equality is paramount and mandatory at law.



That correlation (foreign dudes and kids in Thailand) has been around for far, far longer than Musk tweeting it.
You have ignored the fact that they had been discussing back and forth and insults had been levied from both sides.

The diver, who splits his time between the UK and Thailand, had told Musk to 'stick his submarine where it hurts', adding that the offer was a 'PR stunt' that 'had absolutely no chance of working'.
Musk calling him a Pedo is a bit much but really they are both pretty harsh and unprofessional comments. Musk also claimed to do digging on him and his activities. Some red flags that I would consider as such; traveled between Thailand and England often, lived over 30 year period in Pattaya, didn't marry until 7 years before the story happened, surely he must just love that beach lifestyle when not in a cave... I've been in caves on the opposite side of that sea, there are plenty but there which can be very difficult but majority of the caves around Pattaya are extremely commercialized and there are better areas for that.. Pattaya is known very well for something else. Partying and kid fucking.
There is no direct proof of either, but both insults are not easily proven.

Case dismissed is the right thing to do here. It's a shitfest and shouldn't be near a court.
That was not a "discussion" between individuals. That was a media interview asking him about Musk's plan, and then Musk using his influential twitter account to call out an individual as a pedophile when he got angry watching the media interview with Unsworth. This isn't some disagreement between rivals turned nasty.

Nowhere in Musk's digging did he turn up any pedophilia. The fact that he is spending money to find dirt on this guy shows you exactly what kind of person he is. A ego obsessed man-child.
 

Snowdog

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Actual lawyers were surprised by the verdict citing the preponderance of evidence in the case against Musk. Just goes to prove that a jury is usually filled with people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty, and/or their unwillingness to find against a popular businessman in their community vs a British ex-pat.

Mainly lawyers who make their living suing people defamation, and pedo guys own lawyer. :rolleyes:

""Based on the court's pre-trial rulings on motions, Mr. Unsworth's case going in had the potential to underpin a substantial verdict in his favor," said John Walsh, who represents people bringing defamation cases."​
 

seanreisk

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TL;DR What a mess.

Musk wasn't originally asked to provide a 'sub' to help move the kids out of the cave. He was originally asked if SpaceX had a way to scrub the air in the cave in case the kids needed to stay in there for an extended period. This was unnecessary, though, because CO2 in water will dissolve about a million times easier than oxygen, and it will do it at lower pressures, so a fast moving water supply in a cave will exchange dissolved oxygen for CO2. The real problem for the kids was food, hypothermia and rising water. Musk's environmental team at SpaceX was idling, though, and apparently he thought the 'sub rescue' would be a great exercise - an 'Apollo 13' drill where the team would have to work, under extreme deadline, on something that really mattered. It was not supposed to be a press stunt - Musk originally decided to hide it, both because the sub might not work and because of liability. It was his contacts in Thailand that announced he was working on it.

Don't feel too bad for Unsworth, it seems he was also at odds with everyone from the beginning. He was dismissive of any idea that didn't involve his team extracting the children through a guided dive, and would not cooperate with teams exploring other ideas, including vague answers for information about the size of the passages and the air pockets available along the way. Unsworth was very active in the press, and willing to dismiss any ideas but his own as dangerous or risky. And Musk was not the only 'outsider' consulted - the Thai government went through a pretty extensive list of possibilities, contacting almost every mining company or government agency that had been involved in an underground rescue. At some point, though, the Thai public began developing the impression that time was running out, the government was unable to make a decision, and that Unsworth (by his own press account) could have had the children out by now. The tipping point came when a non-government person began asking the parents for legal permission to extract their children from the cave (unsure if this is anyone from Unsworths group, though).

Where did the 'pedo' comments come from? During one of the dive planning phases they were trying to work out if each child should be free swimming, strapped to the back, or strapped to the front, and there was apparently some masculine joking when one of the divers (not Unsworth) who insisted that the child "has to be strapped to the front so I (the diver) can feel what the child was doing." You can imagine the jokes from there. This included someone calling it 'The Great Pedo Dive'. Would Musk's sub work? No, but it could have if it was shorter and had a slight bend. Who insulted who first? Unsworth, and you can also argue that saying that a billion dollar company who is trying to do something helpful is "doing a PR stunt" is a bigger defamation. Did Musk investigate Unsworth for pedophilia after he made his tweet? Yes he did.

Should Musk have lost? I think he should. But as a true matter of damages in a twitter defamation trial of this scope, I think Unsworth would have helped his case if he had simply asked for a million dollars and lawyers fees, which I think would have been reasonable. Instead, Unsworth asked for something stupid. Greedy, angry, stupid. I get it, Elon Musk is a pushy billionaire, but Unsworth wasn't some knightly sweetheart either.
 

Snowdog

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Where did the 'pedo' comments come from? During one of the dive planning phases they were trying to work out if each child should be free swimming, strapped to the back, or strapped to the front, and there was apparently some masculine joking when one of the divers (not Unsworth) who insisted that the child "has to be strapped to the front so I (the diver) can feel what the child was doing." You can imagine the jokes from there.
Unsworth is 64 years old. Musk probably saw a picture of Unsworth's girlfriend who is about 24 years younger, and looks even younger:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6132427/Elon-Musk-accuses-British-cave-diver-moving-Thailand-child-bride.html


00578-6132427-Woranan_Ratrawiphukkun_40_left_has_been_in_a_relationship_with_B-m-1_1536148864858.jpg



It does look like older white western guy, who goes to get younger woman in less affluent (area of) Asian country. This is not uncommon. It's not pedophilia , but it is kind of creepy. I just stumbled on documentary about something like this a couple of years back, where IIRC the old white guy was Canadian, and he was misrepresenting his wealth to his fiancees' family...
 

Meeho

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Maybe it was PR, maybe it wasn't That part is just like calling someone a pedo as an insult in a troll battle
It's the same, really. PR stunt, child rapist...tomaeto, tomato.
 

sleepeeg3

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Why is this lawsuit a thing anyway? IIRC both of them were running their mouths insulting each other. The jury should have just fined both of them, said grow the hell up and kick both of them out of the court with icepick shoes.
Musk is a douche, but I agree with this.

P.S. Don't sue me, Elon.
 
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aokman

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Musk is a douche, but I agree with this.

P.S. Don't sue me, Elon.
see this I dont get... is it tall poppy syndrome? Elon has done more for this world innthe last decade than most in history. Everyone wants to lay him out as a scumbag but WTF impact have you made to the world overall other than farting.
 

kirbyrj

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see this I dont get... is it tall poppy syndrome? Elon has done more for this world innthe last decade than most in history. Everyone wants to lay him out as a scumbag but WTF impact have you made to the world overall other than farting.
That doesn't change the fact that he's a douche. More for the world than most in history? Come on... Learn some actual history.
 

nomu

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Unsworth is 64 years old. Musk probably saw a picture of Unsworth's girlfriend who is about 24 years younger, and looks even younger:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6132427/Elon-Musk-accuses-British-cave-diver-moving-Thailand-child-bride.html



It does look like older white western guy, who goes to get younger woman in less affluent (area of) Asian country. This is not uncommon. It's not pedophilia , but it is kind of creepy. I just stumbled on documentary about something like this a couple of years back, where IIRC the old white guy was Canadian, and he was misrepresenting his wealth to his fiancees' family...
Kind of creepy? She's a 40-year-old woman. Honestly once both participants are over the age of 35 you are an insufferable busybody if you even notice what people are doing together. Who fucking cares, if people can't be trusted to handle their own business by that age then we may as well be children forever.
 

Master_shake_

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Unsworth is 64 years old. Musk probably saw a picture of Unsworth's girlfriend who is about 24 years younger, and looks even younger:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6132427/Elon-Musk-accuses-British-cave-diver-moving-Thailand-child-bride.html


View attachment 205347


It does look like older white western guy, who goes to get younger woman in less affluent (area of) Asian country. This is not uncommon. It's not pedophilia , but it is kind of creepy. I just stumbled on documentary about something like this a couple of years back, where IIRC the old white guy was Canadian, and he was misrepresenting his wealth to his fiancees' family...
TBF i thought it was a ladyboy.
 

Snowdog

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Kind of creepy? She's a 40-year-old woman. Honestly once both participants are over the age of 35 you are an insufferable busybody if you even notice what people are doing together. Who fucking cares, if people can't be trusted to handle their own business by that age then we may as well be children forever.
You missed the point. I was referring to how young she looks in the picture. She looks about 20.
 

Comixbooks

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i live next to Vietnam basically everyone settled here in Wisconsin and in Minnesota after Nam.
 

Arcygenical

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You missed the point. I was referring to how young she looks in the picture. She looks about 20.

So. It's categorically not creepy...

I wish my wife, at 45, looked 20. FFS. I'm 32, I'd date a 20 ish year old now/

But you go ahead and date Grandmother. Mine just passed, otherwise I'd give you her rotary phone number.
 

owkia

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You missed the point. I was referring to how young she looks in the picture. She looks about 20.
Did you look at any of the other pictures in the article? She only looks young in 1 of 5 pictures.
 

Algrim

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If 'pedo guy' is your go-to insult for someone I think that reveals more about your own psyche than the one you are attempting to insult. (You and your are used in third person here and not aimed at any one person's comments on this forum.)
 
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