A significant amount of people don't have a garage or drive way to charge said car. Running a long line to the curb probably not that cheap and leaves it open to some punk kids to fuck with.I charge off of my 240V dryer port, I bought a $70 splitter... I could have splurged about $300 for an automatic switching splitter, that charges only if the dryer isn't running... However it's about six feet from the dryer, so we know if it's plugged in and charging... So basically f*** that for the time being...
Why's everybody gotta be fancy or doing this the hard way... It's basically an iCar, just plug the damn thing in. Depending on your habits, you can probably get away with the 110V outlet. i.e. You only have a short commute and back, or go grab groceries or other basic tasks... Electric is viable for a very significant number of people, and the tech is only going to improve.
I bought it because it's a FWD roller coaster off the line, I'm fairly certain I trip people out when they see me zip off up to 60... It's so much fun between 20-60mph, and mine is basically a piece of shit compared to the likes of a Model S/3/X... But I love it.
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Electric Cars Likely Won't Save You Money
Gigus Fire
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Two types of Rich people (i did say wealthy, not exactly Rich). One works for a living and the other is either born into it or really lucky. The number of professional sports players who make millions every year out of the total number of people in this country, or even people that want to be in that position is so minuscule that it can be statistically thrown out.
Believe it or not, with a STEMs degree and a good job, you can be fairly wealthy. It's just a matter of maximizing your savings and investing which will make you build even more wealth. That's the category of people who i would think might crunch the numbers on an electrical commuter car vs a gas commuter car. Those are the kind of people that might be able to ball rolling on new technologies which will scale with economy.
There's only a tiny/few industries which cater to the super wealthy, like the yacht building industry or private airplane industry. These are small, very specialized and there's limited growth. Just how many diamond-studded iphones do you think actually sell?
I'll leave you with these statistics to better illustrate. In order to be in the top 10% of income earners in the US, you need to make 122k a year (2017). That can be done with a single job. top 5% is 214k a year. That can be done in a single household with 2 good jobs. If you don't think top 10% makes you a wealthy person, then i'm not quite sure what to tell you. Making 90% higher than everyone else in the country definitely makes you a wealthy person (income wise). Is it compatible to the top .1% that make 1.6 mill a year? Nope. Is that the standard you're using to define as "Rich"? That's a pretty high bar, you may want to reconsider.
lostin3d
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About 6 years ago we were in the market to replace one of our aging vehicles. I looked into used/new hybrids and electrics. I noticed the price jump across the board for most vehicles, traditional or electric, around 2010. Most things nearly doubled. I then looked into the issues of electric/hybrid and couldn't believe $$$ needed every 50-100k miles or so. I know it varies but still. There's a reason, if you look up the manufacturer recommended replacement cycles, you'll see used ones selling for half to just under new prices but they don't mention the $$$ it will immediately need to refurbish the car to spec again.
We ended up with a used 2009 Subaru(yeah one of those that Kyle reported the hack on, thanks Kyle for more grey hairs-lol-but hey, knowing is half the battle right?). In six years we've put 65k miles on it bringing it to around 115K. I can guarantee we haven't nor need to put $10-15k into keeping it up to spec. It still avg's 23-28MPG and we often do minor off-road trips in the spring/summer. Around 100k I did the normal maintenance cycle which cost us around 2k, and even all the oil changes/misc. items probably are around 2k since purchase.
Bottom line is that as much as I want to give into the hype of electric cars(and believe me when I was a kid I really thought the idea was cool), the reality of costs are grossly misrepresented beyond the 'you just plug it in' publicity. Someday it become closer to the dream but right now its still more of a fantasy for those of us w/o ten's of thousands in disposable income.
We ended up with a used 2009 Subaru(yeah one of those that Kyle reported the hack on, thanks Kyle for more grey hairs-lol-but hey, knowing is half the battle right?). In six years we've put 65k miles on it bringing it to around 115K. I can guarantee we haven't nor need to put $10-15k into keeping it up to spec. It still avg's 23-28MPG and we often do minor off-road trips in the spring/summer. Around 100k I did the normal maintenance cycle which cost us around 2k, and even all the oil changes/misc. items probably are around 2k since purchase.
Bottom line is that as much as I want to give into the hype of electric cars(and believe me when I was a kid I really thought the idea was cool), the reality of costs are grossly misrepresented beyond the 'you just plug it in' publicity. Someday it become closer to the dream but right now its still more of a fantasy for those of us w/o ten's of thousands in disposable income.
100% free charging at work means that I don't pay anything for "fuel" for my BMW i3. The off the line performance is incredible.
As a die-hard car fan, and previous owner of a 650HP 94' Supra, the i3 is incredibly fun/economical.
I probably could have saved money by buying something with an ICE, but something with an ICE that has the instantaneous torque of the i3? Can't see how to accomplish that.
[To clarify, I'm leasing it... After looking at how much depreciation electric vehicles have, it didn't make sense to buy - maybe that's the point of the article?]
[[Double Edit - After reading the article, I retract my post - Yep, I'm probably paying more for my particular transportation, but its a choice I made for the performance/no time wasted as gas stations. Very happy with that decision.]]
As a die-hard car fan, and previous owner of a 650HP 94' Supra, the i3 is incredibly fun/economical.
I probably could have saved money by buying something with an ICE, but something with an ICE that has the instantaneous torque of the i3? Can't see how to accomplish that.
[To clarify, I'm leasing it... After looking at how much depreciation electric vehicles have, it didn't make sense to buy - maybe that's the point of the article?]
[[Double Edit - After reading the article, I retract my post - Yep, I'm probably paying more for my particular transportation, but its a choice I made for the performance/no time wasted as gas stations. Very happy with that decision.]]
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Rahh
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When dealing with vehicles I would disagree. Cars are like hotels whereas they get more bad reviews than good and believe me if there is something bad about a vehicle the owners speak up about it. I hardly think that an owner disregards problems with their vehicle just because they don't want to feel like "a sucker". It's actually quite the opposite, if there are problems with a vehicle then just like vegans you will hear about it.
D
Deleted member 93354
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Compare a Honda Civic to a Honda Civic Hybrid, or a Toyota Camry to a Toyota Camry Hybrid, or a Chevy Cruze to a Chevy Volt. (Which is much harder due to it's pure electric mode...so it depends on your driving habits)
Assume that the battery will last you 200,000 miles. (Most warranties go to 150,000 miles)
Cost of Gas = number of miles * cost per mile.
Cost Per Mile = gallon cost / MPG
SO
Cost of Gas = number of miles * (gallon cost / MPG)
Car A Cost + Cost of Gas Car A = Car B Cost + Cost of Gas Car B
Car A Cost + number of miles * (gallon cost / MPG car a) = Car B Base Cost + number of miles (gallon cost / MPG car b)
number of miles * ((gallon cost /MPG car a) - (gallon cost /MPG car b) = Car B Base Cost - Car A Base Cost
number of miles = ((Car B Base Cost - Car A Base Cost) (MPG car a - MPG car b) )/ gallon cost
that's just the rough math off the top of my head. If your number of miles > 200,000 battery lifetime, you are screwed.
My math may be a little off as I haven't proofed it, but there you go.
(Edited: Flipped my ratios by accident)
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Ever looked into the by-products of creating the batteries and the disposal? Also thee the mines where the materials are extracted. Human rights violations galore, child labor etc. We have to start looking at the big picture not just one side that makes us look or feel good about ourselves.
Wait...so you're saying you're totally unaffected by pollution in China...but simultaneously that you benefit from it by having the pollution shifted away from you?
You're right: I don't understand your logic.
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MikeTrike
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That simply means they should use the right tools for the job... A gasoline vehicle.
This isn't an either/or scenario.
SOME rich people are spendthrifts. In fact, that's often how they got rich.
OTHER rich people waste money as fast as they can lay their hands on it. In my experience, these people usually inherited their wealth.
Really depends.
My windows where old single pane windows, with several that didn't even close properly any more. You could feel drafts around the edged when the wind was blowing.
I replaced the windows myself (with help of a family member who has been in construction for decades), for less than half the number you tossed out as I remodeled the house. (house needed a lot of work when I bought it) Even better, I didn't use the junky retrofit windows, I use windows meant for new construction, and we then replaced the wood trim and/or patched the stucco.
Windows look like the came with the house.
I added the insulation in the attic myself, just like replacing lights. Very little cost.
Only item I had to pay someone else for is the central air, but that needed to be replaced anyways due to it's age and obvious signs that it would soon fail.
I even redid the ductwork in the attic myself which vastly improved the upstairs cooling.
As for Solar, I'd have to pay someone to do the install.
I've run the numbers, and the ROI for me is always 10-15 years. The sales people who always call me talk about 5 to 10 years, but there are always holes in their numbers.
Rather than spend $20k on solar panels, it would be better for most people to put that $20k in the bank, collect interest, and use the money to pay their electric bills for the next 15-20 years
Randall Stephens
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Apple fan boys are the same way. It's the cult mentality. Same thing with large truck owners.
Dr. Righteous
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126 years and it is just getting "started".
(meaning the first practical I.C.E. was invented by Rudolf Diesel in 1892)
Gigus Fire
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you don't have to tell me about drafty windows. I just moved into a new house, it was built about 25 years ago which is relatively new considering houses in general. The double pane windows are drafty as hell (contractor special). That's just money flowing outside. But because the amount of windows is probably about 30-40 that i'd have to have replaced, i don't have the capital to do that upgrade immediately. I just started to winterize them a bit with plastic and rope caulk.
Still, if you just added blown in/loose insulation in the attic, you probably would have gotten better performance by using foam spray to make an air barrier between the attic and the top floor. It would have been labor intensive, but may pay off in the long run.
I opted for solar myself. I was planning on waiting 5-10 years down the line for prices to be even more affordable, but i was caught needing a new roof. 30% off a new roof is fairly significant thanks to federal tax credits (if you get solar and need roof work, it's 30% off in federal tax credits), so i opted to get that now rather than wait.
cjcox
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Even after they have to replace the batteries?
That hardly ever happens, according to Consumer Reports, even in 12-yr old Priuses.
Unless you are talking about the little 12V one in the back, which seems to get replaced about as often as a normal car battery-- which it is.
/dev/null
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I'm not a huge fan of instantaneous torque. I can see it causing problems up here in snow country...
Computer modelling of combustion has led to some big advances in efficiency and output per displacement. For example, Mazda's forthcoming SkyActiveX technology:126 years and it is just getting "started".
(meaning the first practical I.C.E. was invented by Rudolf Diesel in 1892)
The new engine — dubbed Skyactiv-X by Mazda and described by some experts as the "holy grail" of powertrain technology — is a risky yet necessary gambit for Mazda ...In unveiling the technology Tuesday, Aug. 8, Mazda said the new engine will boost torque by up to 30 percent and improve fuel efficiency by up to 30 percent over the current line of Skyactiv-G direct-injection engines Mazda began rolling out in 2011.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170812/OEM06/170819925/mazda-powertrain-moonshot
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170812/OEM06/170819925/mazda-powertrain-moonshot
That's because you're making up shit and then pretending I said it. It's your own "logic" that you don't understand.Wait...so you're saying you're totally unaffected by pollution in China...but simultaneously that you benefit from it by having the pollution shifted away from you?
You're right: I don't understand your logic.
Good news, though: no one else understands your logic either.
Believe it or not, with a STEM degree and a good job, you can be fairly wealthy without maximizing your savings and investing.
I am, and I'm spending about $30,000 a year on vacations, which is hardly "maximizing savings."
I was an engineer for over two decades, made serious money off Intel stock options last century.
Now I'm a patent attorney.
D
Deleted member 93354
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My Wife owned second gen and I HATED IT.
Cheap plastics and interior
Horrible Ride
Bad driving dynamics
and when we go in an accident it crumpled because it has no steel to save weight.
After that accident (wasn't our fault) we got a Taurus and never looked back. My wife said she's not going back either.
Gigus Fire
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Good for you. Most engineers post .com crash era will never see stock options unless it's from a really iffy/risky startup company. That's not to say it's impossible, but the number of people that don't far outweigh the people that do.
Spending 30k a year on vacations while being a patent lawyer... I'm not sure how that invalidates my original statement to be frank. If you rely on solely on salary (not stock options, not some lucrative attorney's salary either) you'll probably find yourself with a low six figure salary around 30. That's enough to save up for the 2nd half of your life and retirement.
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Zarathustra[H]
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This is not surprising at all.
With current tech there are fuel savings and less maintenance, but the upfront cost is just too much higher than an equivalent fuel based car for it to make financial sense...
This won't be the case for long though.
Also, I think it is disingenuous of them to talk about battery replacement costs.
Long term testing on Tesla's have shown that the range lost in in batteries after 100,000 miles driven is very small, and simulated projections have shown that they can likely support up to 500,000 miles on a single battery pack with 80% capacity remaining.
If you are a normal person who gets rid of a car after 100-150k miles somewhere you should never have to replace the battery, so including that cost on the equation is VERY misleading.
With current tech there are fuel savings and less maintenance, but the upfront cost is just too much higher than an equivalent fuel based car for it to make financial sense...
This won't be the case for long though.
Also, I think it is disingenuous of them to talk about battery replacement costs.
Long term testing on Tesla's have shown that the range lost in in batteries after 100,000 miles driven is very small, and simulated projections have shown that they can likely support up to 500,000 miles on a single battery pack with 80% capacity remaining.
If you are a normal person who gets rid of a car after 100-150k miles somewhere you should never have to replace the battery, so including that cost on the equation is VERY misleading.
cjcox
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Fair enough. I guess I got turned off of Toyota when my brother was tricked into buying a Previa
The 2012 Leaf had an MSRP of about $36,000. A 2012 Civic LX (which is what are mostly there in your search) was $16,555.... Now they are worth the same. You proved my point about depreciation.
None of my vehicles have timing belts. But I do maintenance as it is needed or suggested. My mothers' Blazer just rolled over 100k. She is bringing it to me this weekend to do plugs, wires, transmission drain and fill and a couple other things. Total cost? About $100.
Oh agreed 1000%, stealership will fuck you no matter what you drive. The Europeans just don't even kiss you first.
Zarathustra[H]
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I'm also in a cold climate. (frozen roads yesterday morning)
The car has traction control...it isn't like it just sits there spinning the wheels. It just goes, as much as it possibly can, given the conditions (wheel slip). On dry pavement, it's a blast!
/dev/null
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Yeah I've had bad luck with traction control in my Sonic. Are you able to disable it if needed?
TBH, I'm not sure...The only time it has ever kicked in, I've been glad it did. Not at all intrusive...more along the lines of "Oh, hmm, didn't realize it was all that slippery out there, thanks!" So, I haven't been inclined to figure out how to turn it off (unlike, say, the 94 Supra which was TERRIBLE, and I always turned it off...but the technology has come a long way...)
cjcox
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But there's certain ironic beauty to flaming tires on a frozen road....
I think with the technology in it's current state, people should be leasing electrics vs buying them. As I've seen a few times in this thread, you don't need a massive home super charger.. and a lot of public places offer free charging or cheap charging. I've seen a lot of folks with dirt cheap leases on electrics.. like $2500 down, $100/mo.. lets say 3 years, that's $6100.. I think even a Honda Civic would cost more on a 3 year lease. In California, there is about $10k in total incentives to go electric, so it more than makes up for that price differential.
It's inevitable that we will all be driving electrics in 10 years, and I almost bought an electric due to cost savings 2 years back when gas prices were $4.60/gallon. I calculated I would save about $200/mo just by buying an electric and driving it instead of my normal car. Seemed like a no brainer until I really thought about it and the fact that I would actually have to drive the electric everyday instead of my normal car. May as well just chop off my nuts and call it a day.
Anyways, back to the point, you will save money by going electric. I know someone mentioned they had solar panels as well for charging.. well, really depends on your system.. if you have a longer commute as I do, you will need an oversized solar system with local batteries so you can charge at night. Not really going to be cost effective. But, if you do go with an electric car, a lot of power companies will change your billing so that you can use a lot more power at the lowest cost pricing tier. So there is quite a significant amount of savings to be had there if you ever get billed at the higher pricing tiers. BTW, I have a solar system as well, and while it is enough to power my home and earn me enough credits for my electrical usage through the winter, it is far from enough to power an additional car being charged... I would probably have to double the size of my system to accommodate.
It's inevitable that we will all be driving electrics in 10 years, and I almost bought an electric due to cost savings 2 years back when gas prices were $4.60/gallon. I calculated I would save about $200/mo just by buying an electric and driving it instead of my normal car. Seemed like a no brainer until I really thought about it and the fact that I would actually have to drive the electric everyday instead of my normal car. May as well just chop off my nuts and call it a day.
Anyways, back to the point, you will save money by going electric. I know someone mentioned they had solar panels as well for charging.. well, really depends on your system.. if you have a longer commute as I do, you will need an oversized solar system with local batteries so you can charge at night. Not really going to be cost effective. But, if you do go with an electric car, a lot of power companies will change your billing so that you can use a lot more power at the lowest cost pricing tier. So there is quite a significant amount of savings to be had there if you ever get billed at the higher pricing tiers. BTW, I have a solar system as well, and while it is enough to power my home and earn me enough credits for my electrical usage through the winter, it is far from enough to power an additional car being charged... I would probably have to double the size of my system to accommodate.
Vaulter98c
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - October 2009
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Everyone over here arguing about which pint sized car is best to carry their purse around in
I'll go electric when they can get me a truck I can fit 4 grown adults comfortably in that can still fit a full sheet of plywood or drywall in the back and when it runs out of go (I need at least 200-250 miles of go at a time) I can refill the go in 10 minutes or less and continue on my way. O yea, needs to be able to tow at least 5000 pounds and be 4x4. O and it can't cost more than 30 grand 1 year used.
That's why electric means jack shit to me. Sure some people only drive 10 miles to work and don't carry more weight than whatever skinny jeans, an iphone, and a few cups of starbucks weighs but there is a vast swath of the country where that shit wouldn't fly. Not knocking on you prius or volt guys, but until they come up with something more than a shopping cart with an RC motor a lot of people won't make the switch.
Bring on the trucks, bring on the Vans and Mini Vans. There's grumblings of an electric semi but right now you're stuck between an overpriced fly swatter and an overpriced sledge hammer. Why there is no middle market blows my mind. Prices and usability just aren't there for the vast majority of people, hence the vast majority of people don't have them. Come out with a 12 grand all electric car that gets 300 miles and all the car folks will buy one within 3 years. Meet my requirements for a truck and I'll buy one the next day.
I'll go electric when they can get me a truck I can fit 4 grown adults comfortably in that can still fit a full sheet of plywood or drywall in the back and when it runs out of go (I need at least 200-250 miles of go at a time) I can refill the go in 10 minutes or less and continue on my way. O yea, needs to be able to tow at least 5000 pounds and be 4x4. O and it can't cost more than 30 grand 1 year used.
That's why electric means jack shit to me. Sure some people only drive 10 miles to work and don't carry more weight than whatever skinny jeans, an iphone, and a few cups of starbucks weighs but there is a vast swath of the country where that shit wouldn't fly. Not knocking on you prius or volt guys, but until they come up with something more than a shopping cart with an RC motor a lot of people won't make the switch.
Bring on the trucks, bring on the Vans and Mini Vans. There's grumblings of an electric semi but right now you're stuck between an overpriced fly swatter and an overpriced sledge hammer. Why there is no middle market blows my mind. Prices and usability just aren't there for the vast majority of people, hence the vast majority of people don't have them. Come out with a 12 grand all electric car that gets 300 miles and all the car folks will buy one within 3 years. Meet my requirements for a truck and I'll buy one the next day.
D
Deleted member 93354
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Has anyone driven a batch of Teslas 500,000 miles?
Some long term reliability lifetime statistics ate based on accelerated studies which do not mimic the real world.
For example lightbulb testing...do you think they test cfl for 10,000 hrs? That's almost 2 years around the clock with at least a couple dozen bulbs. What they do is run 100 bulbs running at the same time and invariably one will fail early. They then add up all the running times for those 100 bulbs. So if they ran for 200 hours each before the first failed, they count the mtbf as 20000 hours mtbf. Yes this is a way they actually test some products. Never mind temperature variance and mounting position can shorten life as well as multiple switching on and off and power spikes which occur more often with time
I doubt it, too many voters with old cars to ban gasoline, and it's not going to run out in the next 10 years.
Besides, at the 3000 miles a year it is accumulating, my newish Prius V will be barely broken in by then. Even the old Prius will have barely cracked 100K miles. Might sell the latter and get an Level 5 self-driving car (electric or hybrid) if they are available by then, as long as I can still drive it myself when I want to.
Unless it's a truck. Those damn things hold a value like nothing I've ever seen. In 2014 I had to replace a Mountaineer that was totaled, and I decided to replace it with a 4 door truck. Every truck I looked at was high miles and high dollars. I ended up getting an 07 Honda Ridgeline with 123,000 miles. My dad recently just went through the same thing and had the same buying experience as me. I always thought trucks were for relatively short distances but evidently there's tons of people out there driving trucks cross country to build the miles up on these things.
Zarathustra[H]
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Keep in mind, traction control is MUCH better in an electric car than on a traditional internal combustion vehicle. The response to the road conditions and the electronic traction calculations is damned near instantaneous, since you can control torque instantaneously by just changing a current. Some people have even suggested that AWD isnt really necessary in slippery conditions with Tesla's RWD cars and traction control. While I am not sure I buy that, I do know that the traction control is much better than what any of us have experienced on ICE vehicles.