Electric Cars Likely Won't Save You Money

[kirbyrj]

I always just assumed it wasn't about saving money. It was about saving the environment.

Ehhh people buy electric because maybe they dont want to shit up the environment even further.

If you cared about the environment you wouldn't buy an electric car. You would buy a PZEV like a Fiesta or a Subaru. In general, the mining of battery components and disposal of batteries are worse for the environment than a fuel efficient car with good emission standards.

 

[pcgeekesq]

I really wanted to like the Prius V, but it was too under powered and I really hate the digital dash on the Prius.
I'd rather have the standard analog gauges and the 200 HP of the Camry.

Legit reasons. Must be why Toyota makes both.

 

[odditory]

Ehhh people buy electric because maybe they dont want to shit up the environment even further.

 

[bugleyman]

Also, I guess we can I assume you don't use vaccinations? Benefit from modern agriculture? Drive on the roads? Because those all exist because of someone else trying to solve the problems of others.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Interesting worldview. Unfortunately, it completely misses the obvious: Many problems -- like the condition of the planet -- are, in fact shared.

No it doesn't miss anything, you did. Things shared are my things. Problems I share are my problems.

That said, the condition of the planet in much of China and India truly sucks, and I don't care, because if I cared, I'd be doing something about that rather than wasting time posting here.

 

[bugleyman]

Ehhh people buy electric because maybe they dont want to shit up the environment even further.

Silly. That's SOMEONE ELSE'S problem.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Ehhh people buy electric because maybe they dont want to shit up the environment even further.

I wonder how many Tesla Roadster owners also have their very own private jet ...

 

[bugleyman]

No it doesn't miss anything, you did. Things shared are my things. Problems I share are my problems.

That said, the condition of the planet in much of China and India truly sucks, and I don't care, because if I cared, I'd be doing something about that rather than wasting time posting here.

If you think the environmental conditions of China and India doesn't affect you, you're ignorant. It's really just that simple.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Also, I guess we can I assume you don't use vaccinations? Benefit from modern agriculture? Drive on the roads? Because those all exist because of someone else trying to solve the problems of others.

Logic is not your strong suit, is it?

 

[rgMekanic]

I don't really believe this. At certain points in time with the right incentives, you get this: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/15/get-new-nissan-leaf-low-11510-incentives-kansas/
less than 12k for a electric car? I'm supposed to believe there's even a gas alternative which can compare?
Batteries are expensive, but so is maintenance on a gas engine.

Tax credits are not rebates. The $10k off group buy's web page no longer exists and I have no idea how many people had to buy in order for it to kick in. And 1 power company in 1 city in 1 state does not a discount make.

What battery dilemma? ConsumerReports found:

Our latest survey sees 12- and 11-year-old Prius batteries (2002s and 2003s) with a replacement rate of 5 and 4 percent, respectively. Swapping out one of those at a Toyota dealer would run about $2,300 plus about four hours’ labor; figure something under $3,000 altogether. That’s a lot of money, but no more than someone might pay to replace an automatic transmission on an old car.
​

Prius batteries less than 7 years old had a less than 1% replacement rate. My own Priuses (11 and 2 years old) have only ever had problems with the little 12V battery.
Average cost of the battery for a Prius, looking at CR's figures, is less than $700 over 12 years, or under $60 per year, average, assuming it fails out-of-warranty. That's in the noise of total car ownership: you'll probably pay more for tires.

Of course, pure electric cars and hybrids are completely different beasts. Hybrids by their nature can be kinder to their batteries, with lower peak current draws and the ability to keep the battery in the optimal charge range (e.g. between 60% and 80%) without affecting range or gas mileage much.

Batteries degrade. Replacement costs from CR there are for completely failed cells. If you haven't been following the iPhone battery drama, people want they battery powered shit to run like it did when they bought it. I know if one of my cars was down 50% on power/capacity/economy, I'd be fixing it instead of waiting until complete failure.

 

[bugleyman]

Logic is not your strong suit, is it?

And straight to the ad hominem.

 

[nutzo]

Speaking of bad assumptions, where did you get that "Most people either live in apartments/condos" bit?
According to http://www.nmhc.org/Content.aspx?id=4708, out of 118 million households in the US, only 18 million are apartments: about 15%.

Ok, not most, but your number leaves out condos.

You also need to include homes without garages, or older homes that don't have the electrical service capable of charging a car because their meter is already overloaded.

 

[pcgeekesq]

If you think the environmental conditions of China and India doesn't affect you, you're ignorant. It's really just that simple.

LOL. Tell me how it affects me, other than making the goods I buy from China cheaper. I can't think of a single bad thing that's happened to me in my entire life that was a result of the crappy environmental conditions in China and India.

Did get some smog, a few years back, when there were those massive forest fires in Malaysia, though, but those forests are gone now, problem solved.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Ok, not most, but your number leaves out condos.

You also need to include homes without garages, or older homes that don't have the electrical service capable of charging a car because their meter is already overloaded.

No, you do. I posted stats that tend to argue against your self-serving fake-newsish "most people live ..." fantasy.
The burden is on you to back up your claim with some facts.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Batteries degrade. Replacement costs from CR there are for completely failed cells. If you haven't been following the iPhone battery drama, people want they battery powered shit to run like it did when they bought it. I know if one of my cars was down 50% on power/capacity/economy, I'd be fixing it instead of waiting until complete failure.

CR did another study that found ten-year-old Priuses get essentailly the same gas mileage as they did when new. If there is any degradation of the batteries, it has no effect, perhaps because unlike cellphones and pure electrics, a hybrid car doesn't have to push the limits of battery tech so hard.
The facts just aren't on your side here, rg, not at least in the case of Toyota's flagship hybrid.

 

[rgMekanic]

CR did another study that found ten-year-old Priuses get essentailly the same gas mileage as they did when new. If there is any degradation of the batteries, it has no effect, perhaps because unlike cellphones and pure electrics, a hybrid car doesn't have to push the limits of battery tech so hard.
The facts just aren't on your side here, rg, not at least in the case of Toyota's flagship hybrid.

Show me the tests were on capacity and not just mileage and I will happily concede

 

[pcgeekesq]

And straight to the ad hominem.

Check the timestamps, bugley: you did it first. Now, did you not realize that because you're "ignorant,"
or are you just a typical internet forum hypocrite?

 

[Teenyman45]

As I haven't read the study I'm not sure if it has been covered but one really annoying factor in favor of electric car ownership is that when public/ theater/ event/ hotel/ etc parking garages offer charging stations, besides generally offering the electricity at no additional costs to the car owner the charging ports are often located in the second or third best locations in the garage after handicap and owner reserved parking.

Batteries degrade. Replacement costs from CR there are for completely failed cells. If you haven't been following the iPhone battery drama, people want they battery powered shit to run like it did when they bought it. I know if one of my cars was down 50% on power/capacity/economy, I'd be fixing it instead of waiting until complete failure.

Isn't that why GM heavily over-provisioned the Volt and Bolt's battery capacity versus what the owner can actually tap into when the battery is new? The stated reason I remember being given was so that as the battery pack slowly degrades it will begin to use more of the spare capacity so that the vehicle owner does not notice much of a difference.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Show me the tests were on capacity and not just mileage and I will happily concede

If the performance doesn't degrade, why do you care about what's going on in the battery?

Consider this: you're undoubtedly aware of over-provisioning in Flash memory devices.
Does it bother you that parts of the Flash are wearing out, if the system is engineered so that you don't notice it?
Of course not. The engineers did their jobs, and hid the wear mechanisms from you.
Well, apparently Toyota's engineers have done that for Prius batteries.

12 car-years with Priuses, and we're still really happy with them.

 

[bugleyman]

Check the timestamps, bugley: you did it first. Now, did you not realize that because you're "ignorant,"
or are you just a typical internet forum hypocrite?

"The environment in China doesn't affect me" is manifestly false. Believe it or not, "ignorant" was an attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[kllrnohj]

You are assuming people have a garage, that there is room in the garage for a car, and they have a dedicated 20 amp circuit in the garage to plug the car into.
You also assume that they will be able to charge the car enough each might only using the 120v charger.

Too many bad assumptions. Most people either live in apartments/condos with no access to the power to charge their car, or even if they have a garage, it's too full of stuff to park their car inside.

I made no such assumptions. I was responding to the context of installing a charger in the garage being expensive. The existing context was already restricted to the subset of people with garages. I made no further assumptions. You're assuming you need to be in the garage to charge, you don't. There's these things called "extension cords" you might have heard of, or is that a bad assumption for me to make?

And no, you don't need a dedicated 20 amp circuit in the garage. You don't need that at all. All you need for level 1 is a regular ol' 10a 120v household outlet. Nobody even gives you a 20a 120v charger in the first place, the ones that come with the car top out at 12a.

You also seem to be making the bad assumption that apartments/condos have no access to power. There were L2 chargers in my previous apartment that cost at-rate. It's not unusual for offices to have car charges, as well, so some people can get away with only charging at work, regardless of their domestic housing situation.

 

[jevans64]

Interesting worldview. Unfortunately, it completely misses the obvious: Many problems -- like the condition of the planet -- are, in fact shared. Not just by you and I. Not even just by everyone in the world. But by every future generation.

I'm not concerned with what my car dumps into the atmosphere as long as you can cut the air in China with a knife. I believe a highly efficient and small ICE vehicle would be better than any electric vehicle in the near-term but, no, everyone wants to commute to/from work in tanks.

 

[collegeboy69us]

2017 volt owner here - and just like anything else, you have to do the math for your situation.

I drive about 75 miles a day for work - and only use 1/2 a gallon of gas in addition to the $1 in electricity it takes to charge my car up. (i only pay 7 cents per kwh delivered) I'd be 100% electric if work would actually install any form of charging at work but no dice there. I'm saving a little over $2/day in fuel costs vs my old cheapo 4 cylinder car that got 35mpg.

Vastly reduced maintenance costs, I only need to go to the gas station once every 6 weeks now instead of twice a week in my old Kia Rio, and I get to enjoy a brand new car with all the safety/tech features. Worth it? Hell yes. The silent operation, and instant off the line 300 ft-lbs of torque are fun too.

There's one Volt out there with over 300K on the clock and no battery degredation: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/03/1...ference-in-battery-since-the-day-i-bought-it/

While I'm not the biggest GM fan, they engineered their battery system with limits and safety to ensure perfect longevity. Buying the volt was me getting my feet wet in the world of electrics but still having that backup hybrid engine for long distance trips, it's worked out great so far even after 36K+ miles on this thing (i've had it since mid 2016) I fully plan on upgrading to a Model 3 once they are widely available.

 

[bugleyman]

I'm not concerned with what my car dumps into the atmosphere as long as you can cut the air in China with a knife.

Does half this forum somehow believe that the planet has multiple atmospheres?

I believe a highly efficient and small ICE vehicle would be better than any electric vehicle in the near-term but, no, everyone wants to commute to/from work in tanks.

In the near term, perhaps. But if I'm not mistaken, even the most efficient internal combustion engines struggle to reach 50% efficiency -- and that's completely ignoring environmental costs (which I guess you believe don't matter? ).

 

[KenRico]

every prius owner i talk to loves their cars.

I have two , one 07 with 215k and a plug in we bought used ..very solid .

So far we are happy, wife would like something with some curb appeal , but likes the mileage and hov stickers for the daily grind .

Kenny

 

[ianken]

I didn't buy my Model S to save money on gas. LOL.

 

[Deleted member 126051]

Nothing beats nuclear for power density.

Except matter-antimatter!

"I caught you going Warp 5 in a 35 mph zone!"
"How? Since I'd have been going faster than light, and would have outrun your radar/laser gun?"
"SHIT! FOILED AGAIN!"

I'm sorry! What were we talking about?

 

[pcgeekesq]

"The environment in China doesn't affect me" is manifestly false. Believe it or not, "ignorant" was an attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And yet you have yet to provide a single example of how I've been harmed by it. Instead, like most upper-middle-class-and-better Americans, I benefit from it.

BTW, saying somethings "manifestly" false isn't a substitute for a logical argument, so my evaluation of what isn't your strong suit stands confirmed.

 

[ianken]

So your solar panels produce power at night when your car would be plugged in to charge? Amazing.

Unless your solar panel setup is way oversized (and you are currently producing more than you use), it will not be producing enough to charge a car, along with providing the power for your house.

During the day when you are not home you make more power than you use, even on a modest install of 7kw. This gets dumped into the grid and you get paid for the power. At night you charge.

Even add a battery. Charge the battery during the day off solar. Sell excess into the grid. Charge at night off the battery and grid at off-peak rates.

Even without solar in an area with time of day metering you could charge your battery (house and car) at night at super off-peak rates and drain the battery during the day during peak rates. Essentially time shifting your power.

I know people who live in the southwest with solar and battery and they pay zero for electricity.

The main issue is cost. What's the time to pay off? A really cool solar+battery setup is not cheap. You're better off improving the efficiency of your home.

 

[ianken]

No one buys electric cars to save money. To save money, you probably should buy a hybrid, not a full electric car. People buy electric cars so they don't have to burn gas with reduces our CO2 emission and NOx and SOx, etc.

Or because they're really awesome. All those things you state are great. But my S100D is a blast to drive. Fantastic for road trips and easily hauls way more family crap than the A4 Avant it replaced.

I am loling at all the EV hate I see when articles like this are posted. WTF ever. Folks need to drive what they want to drive. Dude want's a Dodge Demon? Do it, they're bonkers and awesome.

 

[DukenukemX]

I have my doubts from an article that takes into account battery replacement. By the time your cars battery is bad, the cost of batteries should have gone down. This has happened to the Prius. At this point you might as well take into consideration replacing an engine.

 

[YARDofSTUF]

So your solar panels produce power at night when your car would be plugged in to charge? Amazing.

Unless your solar panel setup is way oversized (and you are currently producing more than you use), it will not be producing enough to charge a car, along with providing the power for your house.

My system is 8kw. This covers peak useage during pool season with a litle headroom to help build up a bank of stored kWh. During pool season our monthly average is 900 kWh used, outside of pool season its 430 kWh a month. The majority of power is made in the summer. What isnt used is sent on to the grid and gives us a bank of kWh. So at night we don't get billed for power unless we run out of that bank, and our system is designed so that we won't run out.

If we needed more power than the system can provide at one moment, we would get power from the grid, even if it was during the day. Its pretty neat how it all works, still getting use to it, first year of having this setup.

 

[nutzo]

I made no such assumptions. I was responding to the context of installing a charger in the garage being expensive. The existing context was already restricted to the subset of people with garages. I made no further assumptions. You're assuming you need to be in the garage to charge, you don't. There's these things called "extension cords" you might have heard of, or is that a bad assumption for me to make?

And no, you don't need a dedicated 20 amp circuit in the garage. You don't need that at all. All you need for level 1 is a regular ol' 10a 120v household outlet. Nobody even gives you a 20a 120v charger in the first place, the ones that come with the car top out at 12a.

You also seem to be making the bad assumption that apartments/condos have no access to power. There were L2 chargers in my previous apartment that cost at-rate. It's not unusual for offices to have car charges, as well, so some people can get away with only charging at work, regardless of their domestic housing situation.

No, just based on observation where I live in Southern California.

Homes in my neighborhood have 2 or 3 car garages, yet over half have no cars in their garage. They either have them full of other stuff, or are using the garage as an extended living space.
This is not the slums, as the average house runs around $700,000.

Charging a full electric car using a 120 volt plug in not practical unless you are driving less than 20 miles per day.
To fully charge a Nissan Leaf with a 120 volts, it takes 20 hours (at the default 8 amps). If your circuit can handle the higher 12 amp current, it would still take 13 hours.
Doesn't leave much time for the commute or to work.

I have seen people run extension cords to their plugin hybrid in their driveway, but they have small batteries that can easily be charged overnight from a 120v plug.

And how many charging stations did you previous apartment have? Enough for even 10% of the apartments?
Most in this area do not have chargers available, and even the newer apartments that do, it's only a small number.

Even if everyone had 240 volt chargers in their garages (and had garages), there is still a bigger problem.
Imaging what would happen if even half the cars where electric, and everyone came home on a hot summer evening, plugged in their cars and then cranked up the air conditioning?
Out here in California, we would have massive power outages. We already have rolling brown outs on hot summer days without all the cars being plugged in, and they are not building new power plants to handle the increased load.

 

[nutzo]

The main issue is cost. What's the time to pay off? A really cool solar+battery setup is not cheap. You're better off improving the efficiency of your home.

That I'll agree with.
I couldn't justify the addition of solar panels even with the high cost of electricity, as the payoff is over 15 years.
I'm old enough that I don't even bother with extended warranties any more as I might not be around to use them

 

[Ryokurin]

The article is making the same mistake that they were making when hybrids were new and that's assuming that the battery will play out soon after the warranty. That really hasn't happened, in fact I do recall seeing a few weeks ago that many of the 10+ year old hybrids batteries still had the majority of their capacity because of wear leveling and because they are never topped off, or allowed to die completely.

Not to mention, rebuilt batteries, and even do it yourself kits for some Prius batteries where you just pull the bad cell and put in a refurb. Will a repair still be a major event? yes, but not a $5,000 expense.

 

[PigLover]

The writer clearly drew his conclusion before he put fingers to keyboard and then wrote an article to confirm his bias. How else could you explain an analysis that admits that most PEVs are leased on a 3-year lease and then compares the 5-year maintenance costs (hint: it only works to the ICE vehicles advantage when you do it that way because the maintenance costs for the PEV in the first 3 years are near $zero). He then harps on battery replacement cost - after acknowledging that most PEVs come with an 8-year, 100,000 mail battery warranty (hint: over the course of a 3 year lease the exposure to battery replacement is $0).

Yes - ok - get it...if you plan to buy a car and drive it for 10 years/200,000 miles then the ICE vehicle will win. But if you are leasing or plan to replace your vehicle regularly then the PEV is likely to be lower cost. And, depending on where you live and the other offsets available it could be A LOT lower cost.

Couple of examples:
- The article references charging costs, but if your utility offers Time-of-day pricing tailored to EV charging you probably only pay 1/3 of what the EPA cost estimates assume
- Also, in most CA cities served by PG&E, SCE or SDG&E, having the EV tariff on your home electric service can permit savings of $200/month or more vs standard rates

Yes - these are examples of cases where the Government has foolishly over-subsidized. But if its out there to be arbitraged a "good citizen" can and should exploit it

 

[otherweeb]

And yet you have yet to provide a single example of how I've been harmed by it. Instead, like most upper-middle-class-and-better Americans, I benefit from it.

BTW, saying somethings "manifestly" false isn't a substitute for a logical argument, so my evaluation of what isn't your strong suit stands confirmed.

Ever hear 'the solution to pollution is dilution'? Sadly we all breath the same 'sea of air'.

We quite literally are the frog in the slowly warming pot of water.

and plastics too.

 

[otherweeb]

If you cared about the environment you wouldn't buy an electric car. You would buy a PZEV like a Fiesta or a Subaru. In general, the mining of battery components and disposal of batteries are worse for the environment than a fuel efficient car with good emission standards.

I love the 'mining battery/solar components is worse' argument.

Do you really think we'll cut back mining those elements and minerals that are used in damn near every other modern electric device in the world?

 

[kirbyrj]

I love the 'mining battery/solar components is worse' argument.

Do you really think we'll cut back mining those elements and minerals that are used in damn near every other modern electric device in the world?

That's no better of an argument than "China's pollution doesn't bother me." Plus, it still doesn't deal with the disposal of the battery. I really don't care all that much as I drive around in a 4Runner, but I'm pointing out that PZEV's are really the short term answer to the environmental issues.

 

[Nanogrip]

I've said it before, electric cars won't work here where I live, a tiny island in the Pacific. There will be no mechanic or tech on the island to be able to repair even small problems in an electric car. 25 cents per kilowatt here is ludicrous, along with just hiked price for gasoline at $4.35 per gallon. I drive a 2007 3 cylinder 1 liter Toyota Passo with everything manual and mechanical except for the engine management and power windows for a daily and I have encountered zero problems. Modern cars from 2010 and newer are nearly unrepairable without some dumshiet dealer-only code access. Cars have become fugging appliances man...