Eizo releases FlexScan HD2441W, advertises proper scaling and no input lag

Discussion in 'Displays' started by ToastyX, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,390
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/hd2441w/index.asp

    This is what they're advertising:
    - Two HDMI ports and one DVI-D port with HDCP support
    - Supports 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i
    - Deinterlacing for 1080i and 480i
    - Proper scaling and 1:1 mapping at 1080p without cropping
    - No black washout
    - Picture-in-picture
    - OutlineEnhancer edge sharpening
    - ContrastEnhancer dynamic contrast, and if they do it right, dynamic contrast without banding. Every other monitor seems to have severe banding when dynamic contrast is enabled.
    - They claim no input lag:

    This is the first time I've seen a monitor advertised with proper scaling and no input lag. The only downside is it has an S-PVA panel, and it won't be cheap. I don't know the price since it's not available anywhere yet, but my guess is around $1400.

    I'm on the fence about this monitor. I just got a 23" Apple Cinema Display so I could have an S-IPS panel and avoid lag. I was planning on getting an external scaler so I could have inputs, but then the total cost would be as much as the Eizo, and it still wouldn't have all the features. The Eizo has an S-PVA panel, but it has almost all the featuers I'm looking for, and I know I won't have to deal with quality issues. This is really tough.
     
  2. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,964
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Should almost think they have read what all complain about in forums! Major applaus to Eizo for being the first to take the input lag serious for gamers!!!
     
  3. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Gawd

    Messages:
    597
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Finally a monitor with the features I have been looking for. A company that actually is giving the features people want. It is almost too hard to believe. Then I saw that it was an S-PVA and I started to get angry. Oh well, there will be others that will be happy with it.
     
  4. DMP

    DMP n00bie

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Interesting! If this model is sub-$1000 then it stands a good chance of sweeping the market for graphics pros and gamers alike. This just may be what all those BenQ FP241W fans had wanted 6 months ago.

    However, if it is priced around $1400 like the current Eizo models, then it's pros will be heavily outweighed.

    Speaking strictly for myself, the only thing that would compel me to go above $1000 would be LED backlighting for the sake of future-proofing only. ;)
     
  5. UrielDagda

    UrielDagda 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,961
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Most likely people will have to sell a kidney to afford one, with the way thier pricing is!
     
  6. DMP

    DMP n00bie

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    So true.

    Oddly the various descriptions seem to have this monitor (at least partially) being marketed towards gamers: A market generally not known for spending extreme prices when comparable models exist at a fraction of the cost.

    Is the only selling point for gamers the "no/low input lag" feature? If so, then surely one knows of the recent influx of 24" TN panels that come in the $500 range.
     
  7. Micky

    Micky n00bie

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    I think this will be around $AU1650, I might sell my current S2411 and get this in a couple of weeks :)
     
  8. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,469
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2004
  9. Micky

    Micky n00bie

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    This will be released 6/22 in Japan, and will retail for about $US1050, obviously it will be more in US though.

    The HD2451W will be released on the same day also.
     
  10. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,469
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2004
    The price will be similar to the current S2410W however note by the time it ships there will be new 24" models from Dell (2407/8-HC), Apple (Cinema 24"), NEC (24WMGX3) and Samsung (245T) so prices could be lower. Also note 24" TN panels coming in, there will be alot of action in the 24" area.
     
  11. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Hi all,

    I recently contacted EIZO UK re the input lag on their 24" displays. What I've been told is that the input lag is the same on all of the current 24" models: HD2441W, CG241W, S2431W, S2411W, CE240W

    I specifically asked them to verify the line "minimal effect on input lag" in the product description of the HD2441W. No manufacturer numbers are published yet, but EIZO UK also said they will investigate adding the input lag numbers to the spec sheet, so kudos to them if they do.

    www.prad.de has some tests on EIZO monitors, and some user reviews in their forums. The 21" version S2111W averaged a 2 frame lag in this review:
    http://snipurl.com/1okj6

    Also found an in depth HD2451W/HD2441W review. I didn't see an input lag test, but they really like it for gaming anyway. The review isn't completed yet, 8 of 11 parts are published and it will continue to be updated each Wednesday:
    http://snipurl.com/1okes

    Although it's a bit disappointing I don't think a 2 frame lag is terrible. Certainly it's in line with other high image quality monitors (and LCD televisions) The site below has a some lag measurements to compare:
    http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6 (you need to click the 'step 3' box and choose 'Delay compared with a CRT')

    I've used other EIZO displays at work, and they are very good so I'm still considering the HD2441W. I find the lag is occasionally annoying, but it's the lesser evil compared with the other problems associated with LCD - such as backlight bleed, uneven brightness and colour banding.
     
  12. ziscwg

    ziscwg Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    350
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
  13. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,469
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2004

    The lag will be there regardless, thier monitors use LUT's and overdrive so you have at the minimum 2 frames of lag, remember the image is buffered for processing or whatever.
     
  14. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Yes, that is certainly true. Really what I meant is that the lag may not be intrusive a lot of the time. It is constant so you can compensate to some degree & forget about it, but there will be certain games, or moments in games where the lag will cause problems. It's that doubt that is holding me back from buying one of these, or someting similar like the NEC LCD2690WUXi.
     
  15. Jinto

    Jinto [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    You usually get what you pay for with Eizo. If I had the $$$ I would consider it. However I got an Acer 2423 already for like a tenth of the price and I am pretty happy with it.
     
  16. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,469
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2004
    the dell 2407 was a huge problem for me, it went back 2 days later. My problem is that Im to adjusted to CRT's expecially after using the FW900 and the dell P1130.
     
  17. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Does anyone have an actual measurement for the lag on the 2407WFP? It would be intersting to know for comparison

    Edit: just found on 'lesnumerique' - they got an average lag of 24ms for the 2407WFP.

    I've used a 2407 at work with Xbox 360 via VGA. I'm sure there was lag, but it was subtle. On FIFA 2007 it was hard to tell as the game is a bit sluggish anyway. Testdrive Unlimited was fine, but driving games are probably one of the easiest games to compensate for input lag. Other people spent many hours playing Street Fighter & Rockstar Table Tennis without complaint

    I didn't perceive lag on the EIZO L885, though it hardly got used for games.

    Also I've used a Sony multimedia monitor (MFM-HT205) This was one of the worst pieces of rubbish I've ever seen grace a desktop - lots of smear & lag. Everything just looked awful on it
     
  18. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,390
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    There better not be any significant lag considering they're advertising it. When I tried the CE240W and reported the lag, after some investigation, I was told the lag was caused by the overdrive chip they were using. Now almost a year later, they're releasing a monitor with overdrive that supposedly has no delay. That seems to imply that they've eliminated the lag in this particular model. I'll see when I get it.

    I have one on order for $1600 at tritechgraphics.com using price match against this: http://www.sparco.com/cgi-bin/wfind2?spn=A90N304

    It won't be available for another 2-3 weeks.

    I've exhausted all my options. The external scaler turned out to be a joke. It managed to degrade the image in multiple ways.

    I've also tried many monitors. They all manage to screw something up. Many monitors can't scale properly, and some that can have other problems like banding or tearing. In addition, all the monitors with PVA panels had lag, and all the monitors with LG IPS panels had defects like backlight bleeding, faint lines, multiple stuck pixels, or image persistence problems. Maybe that's why Eizo doesn't use any LG panels. The IPS panels they do use are made by other companies like Hitachi and Mitsubishi, but those are more expensive and don't have good response times.

    At this point, I no longer care that it has an S-PVA panel as long as it doesn't lag. I just want something that works properly and doesn't have defects.
     
  19. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    It is ridiculous that finding a monitor that is high quality and genuinely minimal lag is so hard. I've been looking for over a year now for a quality single display that is able to properly support games consoles & DVD. Unfortunately though it seems that manufacturers can only get good image quality at reasonable cost via a lot of processing. Possibly this is because it's the only cost effective way to get good colour & uniformity?

    Figuring that broadcast industry monitors have to properly support TV resolutions & interlaced formats I investigated those. However the specialist suppliers I spoke to told me that input lag (they call it circuit delay) is a very touchy subject amongst manufacturers and it is very difficult to get published figures.

    Panasonic grabbed some headlines with a 17" 1280x720p monitor that has a delay of less than 1 frame at 60hz. It costs US$3000 - maybe worth it if you are tracking the cameras at a sports event or something like that

    The only other one I can find with a published spec is by AstroDesign. 24" 1920x1200 & 3ms delay. No pricing, but their older 23" model is $10000. But even that's cheap compared to Sony's reference 23" LCD - LED backlights, black frame insertion, indistinguishable from CRT (they claim) Cheap at US$25000 + shipping & taxes.

    Sony have an 'affordable' 24" broadcast monitor that costs $3100, but they won't put a figure on the lag, I have asked Sony UK & a couple of retailers. Maybe someone could try asking Sony USA?? I'm mainly interested as there is another new Sony 24" that goes on sale in Japan this week for $1100

    I guess the good news is that the technology exists and will trickle down to the mass market monitors, not that it helps us right now...


    As for the EIZO HD2441W, I'm sorry Toasty but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. When I queried the S2411W lag with EIZO, the distributor forwarded my question to the engineer in Japan and the way the engineer framed his return comments made me think that they actually believe 2-3 frames lag is 'minimal.' In the context of some HDTVs & video processors that lag 6-8 frames they could argue their description is fair.

    That was why I contacted them a second about the HD2441W and the other new models. The product specs & description are too vague about the lag, I thought it was a bit of marketing spin. To be fair to EIZO UK if they willing to get actual figures on the spec sheet then I can only applaud them for being more open about the issue

    Of course if real world testing proves less than 2 frames lag on the HD2441W then I would happily pay the premium - it should be a quality product in every other way.
     
  20. ~El~Jefe~

    ~El~Jefe~ Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    467
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    planar 26 is less than 1 frame of lag for 1000 dollars. for 649 dollars, best buy sells the LG 24" which has around 1 frame exactly. screw 10k on a monitor.
     
  21. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    ~El~Jefe~ the screens you mention may be great in many regards, but the thing is they don't tick all the right boxes e.g. with the Planar the backlight bleed or banding at 1080p will drive some people nuts - and so it's $1000 wasted.

    I actually thought the Planar might be an adequate compromise for me, sadly I can't get it in the UK.
     
  22. ~El~Jefe~

    ~El~Jefe~ Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    467
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    well, you could buy it from me via ebay if you wanted. I did that once with a gigabyte board. shrugs.

    Also, the company's tech people told me over and over, if that backlight uneven pattern of bleeding ever happens, they WANT you to send it so that you can get a replacement.

    I do believe that the toastyx backlight issue was an oddball thing. The planar people are really really into giving people new screens for defects. I know there will be some backlight glow on an ips vs a cheaper/different mva/pva, but it really cant compare. THe photographs of the images that toasty took were awesome... and that is just a photo seen on my crt. in person, obviously, it is much clearer.

    26" is a decent tv size. I am looking to get an advanced tuner and pump all through my pc box.
     
  23. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    anyone seen this one in the stores yet?
     
  24. ~El~Jefe~

    ~El~Jefe~ Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    467
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    from what I know about the company, it never will be in a regular store. I dont think the salespeople could adequately explain it. most are fairly ignorant. I would be at that store right now if it they were around Manhattan at all :(
     
  25. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    and in an unregular store?

    In NL for example there is an eizo lacie store, but since that is EU it will probably take a couple more months before it actually arrives there :(

    I was just wondering if someone in Asia or America already seen the monitor and perhaps bought it already so he can tell if this really is the 24" wet dream monitor...
     
  26. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Black only HD2441W is in stock at online stores in the EU. White & Silver versions are due mid August. See my earlier post for a link to a Japanese review. There is now another brief review here:
    http://www.trustedreviews.com/displays/review/2007/07/25/Eizo-FlexScan-HD2441W-24in-LCD-Monitor/p1

    Review is also planned on www.prad.de - expect them to do a proper test on the input lag. With any luck they'll post early results in their forums soon (I hope!)

    ToastyX does fairly thorough tests as well, so if you wait a couple of weeks you'll have a good idea of everything to expect from this monitor.

    In the meantime you could look at the S2411W - image quality is likely to be very similar, if not identical
     
  27. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    thx for the review

    seems very interesting

    Although the screen isnt in the dutch pricewatch yet, I did find it listed in one online store already (www.sww.nl)

    but the price really scared me (1345 euro ???!!!)

    are they really serious about this??

    finally a 24" screen that might do as advertised, but they ask the double of 24" monitors that have the same technology, but only have crappy firmware causing all kinds of shit i dont want on a 1000 euro investment...

    aaaaaarch eizo

    drop that fuckin price please!!

    you'll be flooded with orders!! i promise....
     
  28. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    No chance of a major price cut anytime soon, it is €880 in Japan and we have to add EU import duty of 14% (applies to all screens over a certain size with HDMI or DVI+HDCP) to make it approx €1000+VAT

    Now add your national sales tax, which is 19% in Netherlands? €1190 would be the price equal to Japan, but of course the EU distributor will take a slice of profit too

    Try googling "preis HD2441W" - it comes up with German prices around €1285
     
  29. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    which is just insane for a consumer monitor :/

    I dont understand eizo

    my personal upper limit for the ULTIMATE 24" is 1100 euro (but then it must be REALLY PERFECT)
    that is already 300 euro more then the Benq and 450 euro more then the Dell, which seems like enough extra to me to get the higher build quality and the actually working as it should firmware...
    but 1350 euro.... i cant imagine anyone sane paying that much...

    by lowering their price to 1050-1100 euro, I am SURE they can quadruple their sales of this monitor... ok profit be lower, but I am SURE that in the end they will still earn much more then with this absurd price...

    Wasnt this monitor aimed at gamers and people who want to see movies?
     
  30. Jinto

    Jinto [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Eizo is more towards graphics professioinals IMO. Eizo always cost a premium because of their quality. Their LCD are handpicked etc. My first LCD is a Eizo L66. It is still very usable today and its nearly 9 years.
     
  31. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    isnt 300-450 euro a nice price premium allready?

    why does it have to be the double of comparable monitors?

    it also seems clear that this monitor isnt aimed towards graphics professionals (just look at their site, with what they advertise this monitor)
     
  32. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    I don't think this is only a consumer monitor though - it makes sense for video editing & broadcasters. For them it's nearer the bottom end of the market. I'm not trying to make excuses, it is extremely expensive for a consumer to pay €1300 for a 24" display.

    You can always try haggling with the retailer, or maybe find a group of people to buy with & get a price break. Maybe try complaining to EIZO directly

    Hopefully there will be some serious alternatives on the market soon. If that happens maybe the price will come down
     
  33. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    that is exactly the problem yes

    there is not a single near decent alternative... :(

    I am no graphics professional or whatever

    I do like the vivid, realistic colors it has, but my life doesnt depend on it,
    but the fact that this monitor might be the ONLY decent 24" on the planet is a disaster

    I've been waiting and waiting for almost 5 years now for the first "ok" 24" monitor to arrive, and now it finally did (perhaps), it costs more then the double...

    quite a disappointment if you ask me :(

    I understand that if you just want a simple cheap 20-22" tft, not all has to be perfect... after all, its only 300-500 euro... But if, like me, you WANT to pay more then the double for only 2" extra, I really need it to be perfect... This needs to be an investment for me that can be usable for 10 years...

    I refuse to pay 700-900 euro for a crappy half finished Dell or Benq LCD...
     
  34. ~El~Jefe~

    ~El~Jefe~ Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    467
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    thats one crappy review on that trustedreviewswhatever site.

    jeez.
     
  35. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    that is why the site is called "trustedreviews"...

    you must trust the reviewer when he sais that it looks "nice", that the colors look "good" and the response time is "fast"

    if you don't like it, you better look at the site www.proofedreviews.com ;)
     
  36. IanM

    IanM [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,294
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
  37. wEvil

    wEvil Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Seconded. Plus the Planar is an S-IPS panel and all in all i've been very pleasantly surprised by it. Before I read about this monitor I was considering a NEC or an Eizo but I honestly feel the Planar is a viable alternative.

    Of course, it has no HDMI input, but then again I don't care for supporting a drm-infected interface :)
     
  38. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    but its a 26"....

    26" is too big for 1920x1200, at least if you want to use it as a monitor as well

    my 15,4" laptop has 1920x1200...
     
  39. conghelach

    conghelach Gawd

    Messages:
    582
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Unlikely that an EIZO panel like this will be Sub 1000, most likely it will be priced out of reach of most people and who would pay over a grand for spva?? Not me. EIZO is known as a good brand but there's little sense in paying a grand or more for a 24 inch panel, not like these things are going to last ten years or something. Four or five would be pushing it.
     
  40. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,964
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    ToastyX should have this screen by now... Looking forward to hear his findings.

    Any updates ToastyX? :)