Effectively protected underground cable the UberGhetto Way?

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superkdogg

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After much anguish and debate, I've decided that my computer workshop needs to go out to the garage from its current spot in my basement. The last straw was when the bat flew out of the air vents and was not only flying right at me but I swear he was smiling too!

So, after I unloaded my pants, I decided I'm moving to the garage (which will allow for some great OC action in the Wisconsin winter.

I've been thinking about the best way to run my wired network out there. I could work it out wirelessly, but I have currently zero N devices, and G may not be fast enough for me if I'm working on something and need to download an app or get a tool off one of the machines in the house.

So, since I'm going wired, I have been thinking about how to get the cable out there. I have to go under only 18" of sidewalk to get a clear shot at the garage, which is about 50 feet from the house. Distance will not be a problem.

The issue I kept coming up against was a convergence of the need to protect the cable, and the need to protect the wallet. Burying Cat5 is possible, and while everybody warns it's stupid, I didn't find any reports of it actually failing (but then again, why would you open yourself up to that mockery?). So, it was decided that there must be protection for the cable beyond the simple indoor sheath.

PVC pipe is probably the most common and I have no doubt that it would do the best job. Being the cheapskate/creative person I am, that was crossed off. Corrugated tubing was the next possibility. Again, requires purchase and is pretty mainstream. Cheaper than pipe, the tubing wins the award as the fallback choice if the chosen way fails.

What did I pick?

GARDEN HOSE. :p

It has a big enough ID to allow a single cable to comfortably pass (I only need one, and if it needs replacing, there will be a twine guide in the hose with the cable). It also is cheap, as in basically free since I have a couple I'm not currently using. It's very waterproof (duh), it's very smooth inside/flexible for making the cable run through it easily, and did I mention it's free!? Any machine digging would rip through PVC as easily as a hose, and any person digging would have a hard time piercing a hose at depth with one shot before they would notice they're into it (unless they think it's a root, but I'm the only one going to be doing any digging and that's unlikely in and of itself, let alone forgetting I have cable buried there).

The one potential problem would be if an animal decides it wants to eat through my hose. I really don't see that as a problem, because I've never had the hose eaten above ground, and I don't think moles or worms are expecially hungry for belted, vulcanized rubber.

Basically I'm just sharing in case anybody else needs to protect themselves on the cheap using old rubber (pun intended). Feel free to comment/ignore/mock me now.
 
For comfort reasons, i would call and exterminator and stay put, lol.

But if your for real, grab a ditch witch and lay some pvc or metal conduit, but its not good pratice to run copper between buildings because of grounding reasons
 
k1pp3r said:
For comfort reasons, i would call and exterminator and stay put, lol.

But if your for real, grab a ditch witch and lay some pvc or metal conduit, but its not good pratice to run copper between buildings because of grounding reasons
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can ebay not help you out with some fibre?
 
k1pp3r said:
For comfort reasons, i would call and exterminator and stay put, lol.

But if your for real, grab a ditch witch and lay some pvc or metal conduit, but its not good pratice to run copper between buildings because of grounding reasons
Click to expand...

I am for real, the bats are going to go next spring (they're important ecologically so you don't just kill off a whole colony-you have to convince them to move).

I've read that it's not smart to run copper between buildings, but I don't really get that. Ethernet is not grounded afaik, and if the copper is inside a rubber hose, and a rubber sheath that wraps the twisted pairs, it should be pretty well insulated (against electricity in the ground such as lightning strikes) too, right?

Ditch witches and conduit cost $$$ and take away my ghetto flava and creativity juice, so they're not any fun in my book. They're better, but no fun and this isn't for a customer, it's for my own ghetto benefit.
 
A 10' section of 3/4 schedule 40 is $1.85 at Home Depot...the couplings are about $.35 each...that is cheaper than buying a garden hose and works much better
 
its because the two locations you are running between might be at different voltages relative to each other, you need isolaters to take care of that.

superkdogg said:
I've read that it's not smart to run copper between buildings, but I don't really get that. Ethernet is not grounded afaik, and if the copper is inside a rubber hose, and a rubber sheath that wraps the twisted pairs, it should be pretty well insulated (against electricity in the ground such as lightning strikes) too, right?
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True about the bats, then again, their house should not be in your house. lol.

Grounding differences between structures can cause equipment to burn out on the other building even IF the cat 5 is grounded. Just because something may have a ground on it, does not mean it is 100% safe from failure.

If you want uber ghetto, sting some cat 5 across the yard and make it double as a clothes line, lol
 
How are you planning on going under the concrete? Pull a section/cut it out, or tunnel under it? I wouldn't trust a garden hose under concrete, especially if it has base under it! Get some 1/2" conduit (the thick shit, 1/4" walls) or even some 3" sewer grade PVC. Why monkey around with a potential problem? You'll be paying for it later when the wire breaks in that hose. You're looking at about $20.

Second.. you said you're in Wisconsin, sounds pretty cold. Ground freeze might be an issue with a garden hose, if there is ANY moisture in it. Again.. PVC/conduit.

Third, with that distance, you shouldn't have any grounding issues, especially if the power in the garage is being pulled from the main house (speaking of which, how is it connected to your house? external wire or buried? you *might* be able to snake a cat5 wire through that conduit, but I don't know how that's going to work. I've run telephone cable right next to power before with no problem [as long as it's not the MAIN power!])

creds: I'm a contractor, but with 6 beers in me. Might be talking nonsense.
 
Na, you don't wanna run cat 5 in the same conduit as high voltage, you will get a lot of noise.
 
flint338 said:
I wouldn't trust a garden hose under concrete, especially if it has base under it! Get some 1/2" conduit (the thick shit, 1/4" walls) or even some 3" sewer grade PVC. Why monkey around with a potential problem? You'll be paying for it later when the wire breaks in that hose. You're looking at about $20.
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You could get a couple-foot section of PVC, stick it under the cement, and then run the hose through THAT- give protection for that cement, if you are worried about it. But if you think PVC plastic is going to stop cement from doing its thing any better than a garden hose- think again.
A wire breaks- he has to ends to pull each end out.
He's already stated he has a string through it to pull additional line- so I don't see what the issue is.

flint338 said:
Ground freeze might be an issue with a garden hose, if there is ANY moisture in it. Again.. PVC/conduit.
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You could say the same exact thing about PVC... Moisture enters through one of the ends- be it PVC or garden hose.



As for grounding- differences in voltage is one reason.
Another is to isolate lightning or other power issues. Fiber keeps one building's system contained to that building- rather than spreading the issue (really more of a problem for a company or campus with multiple buildings).

IMO a garden hose would work fine.
PVC (as you stated) breaks easy enough in itself. Metal condiut might be ideal to stand up to the elements/people cutting into it, but for a home scenario in which you probably don't care if it gets cut (having to re-run it) accidentally, it isn't much of an issue. If it accidentally gets cut (And that is a big *if* considering it is at a home and you know it is there!), you can run wireless temporarily- we probably aren't talking high availibility here.
 
Electric duty PVC is the only good route. The stuff is built for this exact application. Don't use a garden hose. Its flexible and will likely get crushed by the earth on top of it, and if you ever have to change the cable you'll have to pull the whole thing out again.

Do not mix the cable with high voltage whatsoever. Not only is it bad technical practice, it will violate electric code and therefore the law.
 
Lightning protection on both ends might be a good idea too, you don't want to fry your gear :)
 
Nobody has asked, and it probably isn't an issue, I feel it necessary to mention that the maximum distance for shielded CAT5e and CAT6 is ~300 feet. Going outdoors and not using proper noise protection (through insulation) I wouldn't go much beyond 150-200 feet. As mentioned in that article run length also includes hubs and anything which doesn't store-and-forward all packets.

This going to be an issue based on where the garage is, and where you want the wire(s) run?

EDIT: Also, forgot that if you are in Illinois and you are digging you'll want to call JULIE at least 48 hours before you are going to dig, in case there are any cables buried out between where you are and where you want to be. Other states have a similar system but since I'm from Illinois I linked to ours. :)

202276
 
will you have each end of the hose go inside to your garage/house? so if in the case of condensation you may blow air down one of the ends and ensure all is good. :p
 
Well, after much debate, I've decided that I need to use PVC. :(

While it certainly fails the Ghetto test, I hadn't really thought out the fact that a garden hose would lose it's round shape after it's buried and would effectively prevent me from being able to replace any failed cables or add future wiring.

I'll be calling my local plumber to get a good deal on some schedule 40 and a few fittings.

Thanks for all the advice.
 
You may also want to use CAT5e outside rated cabling. This is cabling that is surround by gel and a thicker outter coating to prevent water from freezing and breaking the cable.

We have done it both ways in the past for underground runs and within a years time we go back, blow out the line, and run the outside rated CAT5e cabling.

It is a little more expensive, but for a short run it would be worth your while. No conduit is going to keep water out, eventually it fills up and your cabling is swimming or freezing...
 
Whatsisname said:
yeah I'm going to disagree with that. If they can keep water in pipes, they can keep it out.
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I work a phone company and have been a part of over 400 Metro Ethernet installations. Conduit contains some water/mud/sand 99 times out of 100. You can buy Cat5/6 cable that is made to be direct buried. Costs will vary, but it will certainly not fall within the "gheto" guidelines originally set forth by the OP.

Here is a site I pulled off a quick google search 19 cents per foot...I can not comment on the cables quality.

http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=16285&cat=296&page=1
 
How many sites have you been to and see this first hand? I have personally been to several dozen across 4 states.

The water mains that are installed in every city coast to coast in the US, at some junction do leak... So while the water pressure is sustained, the pipes which are 40, 50, 60+ years old aren't going to be PVC and aren't going to be water tight.

Whatsisname said:
yeah I'm going to disagree with that. If they can keep water in pipes, they can keep it out.
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Going somewhat off topic, if you have bats in your house, you should seriously consider calling in an exterminator or a rodent remover. Bat droppings (which you all know as guano.. poor Ace Ventura), has a toxic dust that scratches your retina and causes blindness. It doesn't take long for it to do that.

If you wish to keep your eyes to enjoy your computer screen, I strongly recommend that you do something about the bats.
 
I had a cat5 cable burried in a piece of garden hose for a while back in the day before wireless with a neighbor next door. It worked great for file transfers and some gaming until the hub died.
 
http://www.edn.com/contents/images/6301617.pdf


Just thought I'd necro this thread because of the above. Turns out some crazy engineer type guy already had my idea and published it as a how-to. I'm now over the fear of doing it, just need to figure out how to get the garden hose under the narrow 18" or so of sidewalk.

As some people assumed-if the cable is broken or crushed, it's no big deal-it can be replaced. Maybe I'll take some pics....if I ever get around to this. Now there's a second kid and less time available.
 
maybe I'm lost but even if that cable goes bad and you use pvc pipe. How is that going to fix anything. How would you get a cable in one end and out the other if it burried underground?
 
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At work I have like 250-ish feet between the buildings We have gray pvc under the parking lot between the buildings. In the PVC I have 2 runs of burial cat6.
 
Destonomos said:
maybe I'm lost but even if that cable goes bad and you use pvc pipe. How is that going to fix anything. How would you get a cable in one end and out the other if it burried underground?
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When you lay the cable, you run string so that you can pull additional cables through. You could also attach the end of the new cable to one end of the old cable and pull it through that way too.
 
superkdogg said:
When you lay the cable, you run string so that you can pull additional cables through. You could also attach the end of the new cable to one end of the old cable and pull it through that way too.
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Werd. Cable slides in pretty easy. We pulled the new through on the old cable, and at the same time, puled through some pulling rope and left it in the pipe for future needs.
 
I say go for it on the hose run -- there are even a variety of couplings and building attachments already available to you if you want to get fancy with it.

I will also second the thought of using some outdoor cable that is probably gel-filled and UV resistant. If part of it will be in the sun in the summer you don't want it getting faded, weakened, cracked, and broken. I guess it depends on how far your hose goes for the run.
 
Whatsisname said:
yeah I'm going to disagree with that. If they can keep water in pipes, they can keep it out.
Click to expand...

One word. Moisture.

But either way, it shouldn't be a big issue to run PVC and string cable in.
 
one of my clients has had a 75 open foot run of normal everyday cat5e strung out the wall of one building into another for the last 5 years with no issues in N. IL. with a lot of cold and snow.
They ran a cable steel between the walls and wire tied the cat5 to the cable every 3 feet.
I was shocked when I saw it but its never had a problem.

Another client went the pvc route and a crane moving over it crushed the pvc and cut the line.

Sometimes you just cant tell what is going to work and for how long.
 
Do you have to worry about any sort of ground loop hum when running between two different grounds? (Sorry, that's an audio term and i'm not sure if it applies)
 
Ampsonic said:
Do you have to worry about any sort of ground loop hum when running between two different grounds? (Sorry, that's an audio term and i'm not sure if it applies)
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The building is close enough to the point where you wont find a large ground change. Secondly, Im assuming here, but it's more than likley that the garage is grounded via the houses ground.
 
Ockie said:
The building is close enough to the point where you wont find a large ground change. Secondly, Im assuming here, but it's more than likley that the garage is grounded via the houses ground.
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And sadly that is very common.
If the garage has its own sub panel, NEC requires it to have its own ground and a isolated neutral (2007 code I believe).



DONT USE GARDEN HOSE.
What happens when it deteriorates underground? What happens when it rains and pipes it into your house or just lets the cable sit in a water bath? What happens when you want to pull a even better line out there in 5 years?

Do it ONCE do it RIGHT.
$50 in conduit and couplings and some great stuff foam will do everything you need.
 
The Spyder said:
And sadly that is very common.
If the garage has its own sub panel, NEC requires it to have its own ground and a isolated neutral (2007 code I believe).



DONT USE GARDEN HOSE.
What happens when it deteriorates underground? What happens when it rains and pipes it into your house or just lets the cable sit in a water bath? What happens when you want to pull a even better line out there in 5 years?

Do it ONCE do it RIGHT.
$50 in conduit and couplings and some great stuff foam will do everything you need.
Click to expand...

wait... did someone just correct The Ockie???
 
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