E8400 P35 To i7 930 X58 Upgrade Questions

T

tenub

Limp Gawd
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Mar 20, 2008
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I currently have an E8400 @ 3.6Ghz, DFI LP DK P35-T2RS, G.Skill 2x2GB DDR2 1000, MSI NX8800GTS G92, and some anciently slow WD & Samsung 250GB SATA HDDs that I'm currently running in RAID0 (HD Tune tested the RAID at about 111 MB/s transfer rate, about the rate of both individual drives combined, and 13 ms access time).

I've been planning out basically a system wide upgrade (CPU, RAM, motherboard, video card, power supply, and possibly hard drive) since it's been about three years since my last component was put in my machine and I've been researching very thoroughly and diligently as of recently. I'm a graduate student with a limited stipend and savings so I'm trying to come up with a monetarily efficient build.

I'll mainly be playing a couple games, namely TF2 and WoW but I would also like to be able to experience the newest and latest games in their full glory, such as Metro 2033.

I already bought the first two components, being an i7 930 from Micro Center for $199+tax and a Corsair 750TX for $80 AR from Newegg. As for the motherboard, RAM, and video card I'm looking at a mid to high end X58 board, 3x2GB DDR3 1600, and one or two GTX 460 1GB cards once the prices drop some more.

For my current system, I was unlucky enough to get a sluggish E8400 that can't go much higher than 3.6Ghz without giving errors even though the temps are well under 60C at full load. I've even tried as much as 1.47 Vcore and it will still toss me an error after a while even at 3.8Ghz and the temps are fine. Anyway, I always wanted to hit over 4Ghz stable and that's why I chose the i7 930. From what I hear it can hit over 4Ghz on a good motherboard with ease and if I'm lucky with the chip I got I may be able to push even higher.

This brings me to the rest of my components. What I was thinking for now is as follows:

1. Asus Rampage III Formula
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131666

2. Corsair Dominator 3x2GB DDR3 1600
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...corsair_dominator_ddr3-_-20-145-224-_-Product

3. Corsair Hydro H70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181013&Tpk=h70

And later down the road I was thinking of getting 1-2 GTX 460 1GB cards to possibly run in SLI. To me I've been eying the Asus ENGTX460 DirectCU TOP card in particular. Also, I could probably add a nice SSD drive or maybe just get a newer higher capacity SATA drive or two and raid them.

My questions for the community are as follows:

Does what I have now look good? I'd like to spend no more than ~$1000 in total on remaining components and no more than ~$600-700 right now for the motherboard, RAM, and cooler.

Is there a better motherboard choice? Would the Rampage III Extreme be a better board for higher overclocks? What about the EVGA E760 Classified or another board? My concern is that if my 930 is from a bad batch or that my overclock is vastly limited by my chip, spending all that extra money on a quality motherboard would potentially be a waste.

Is there a better RAM choice? Is it worth it to save some money here or spend more and go with a different brand or speed?

Would an SLI configuration really help? I'm on a Samsung 193P+ 19" LCD (1280x1024).

Would saving money on these components and getting a nice custom water cooling loop be worth it for a higher overclock? If I don't end up getting an amazing 930, would I rather be limited by my chip itself with the H70 before temperatures become an issue and give rise to instability, in which case all that money on the custom water cooling would potentially be wasted?
 
The i7-930, in most cases, can hit 4GHz or higher on a good mid-range motherboard with a decent air cooler. But even with a mild overclock, it will be leagues better than the E8400 you've been using recently.

So rather than go with the "best of the best," go with the following instead:

$230 - Asus P6X58D-E
$30 - Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus
$145 - G.Skill 3x2GB DDR3 1600 1.5V-1.6V CL9 kit

The parts that I've chosen were more for cost savings than absolute-best-bang-per-buck performance. I'm not much of an overclocker myself, so there may be a board or two that overclocks better than the P6X58D-E for around the same price (if not a bit higher).

Regarding RAM, lower voltage matters more for overclocking than tighter timings. In other words, you'll obtain similar results with the cheaper G.Skill kit as you would the "high-end" Dominators.

A second fan on the Hyper 212 Plus, one of the best bang-per-buck performance CPU coolers, would still make it cheaper than the H50 with comparable noise levels. (The H50, with its stock fan and its pump, can be somewhat loud.)

SLI is pointless for your current resolution. Hell, one HD5770 (which is cheaper than the GTX 460) is more than enough for that resolution. Buy one GTX 460 only if you're really concerned about frame rates.

Water cooling is still the best option of very high (beyond 4GHz) overclocking, but that would require more research on your part and could possibly bust your budget.
 
you could expect to pay $200 USD or more for a nice custom water loop for just the cpu, fortunately you can put a decent one together for around $130~140 USD or so that will still beat the pants off the H70.

BeepBeep2 said:
MCR-120/220 $30/40
Enzotech Sapphire $35
Jingway 1200 $50
Tubing+barbs $15
T Line $2
Click to expand...
complements to BeepBeep2 over at xtremesystems.org for the list of parts.
 
I'd like to get some more opinions on this. If it turns out that if my chip is indeed a good overclocker I would prefer to be limited by the chip itself rather than my motherboard and/or cooling solution. So is the P6X58D-E still the best solution in that case?

I found a review showing that SLI performance can make a difference even at 1280x1024:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-sli-review/9

Granted, I'd be looking to buy the 1GB version. Like I said, I'd like for this upgrade to allow me to play newer games like Metro 2033 at maximum or near maximum settings. Would it be worth it to look into a single GTX 470 or an ATI card such as the 5850 or possibly even the 5870 rather than a GTX 460 SLI setup? It seems to me that the GTX 460 is currently the best value card for performance out there right now. I don't know much about the upcoming ATI line but would there maybe be a significantly better card in the new lineup near my price range (<$250)?

As for a custom water loop my only concern is my current case. I'd love to keep it because personally I think it's one of the best quality cases ever made; it's the Lian Li V1000B, but if I end up buying a custom water loop then I'd like to be damn sure it will fit in my case without a bunch of clutter or modification.

Edit: I'd also like to discuss my hard drives. Would it be worth changing them out? They are a WDC WD2500JD-98H and a Samsung SP2504C.
 
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E4g1e said:
Some difference, yes. But is that difference anywhere close to the extra money that you'd have to spend on a second or third card? IMHO the performance difference needs to be at least 40 percent on all games (not just a few) - from 30 fps with a single GPU to at least 42 fps with a dual-SLI setup - in order for the second card to be worth it. As it stands right now, however, some of the latest games still do not scale well with a second GPU.
Click to expand...

It seems that for the SLI setup in all but one game in that review the fps remains nearly double a single GTX 460 for all resolutions including 1280x1024. Again, it's such a small number of games to begin with that a proper correlation cannot be drawn, but I'm sure there's someone out there that can say whether or not it's actually true.

EDIT 1

E4g1e said:
In that link, it applies only to that particular game. Many of today's games still cannot take anywhere near enough of an advantage of the second GPU to justify spending the extra cash on one.
Click to expand...

Okay, so your recommendation is to start with one GTX 460 or possibly a different card then maybe go from there later down the road?

EDIT 2

tiraides said:
Regarding RAM, lower voltage matters more for overclocking than tighter timings. In other words, you'll obtain similar results with the cheaper G.Skill kit as you would the "high-end" Dominators.
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention that I was reading reviews of that particular Dominator RAM in which it was compared to similar G.Skill RAM. In the game tested (Crysis at 1280x1024) the Corsair was somewhere around 5 fps higher. Personally I think the extra $40 may be worth it, especially if I'm running a game around the 25-30 fps mark?

Here's the article: http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1432&pageID=5950
 
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tenub said:
Okay, so your recommendation is to start with one GTX 460 or possibly a different card then maybe go from there later down the road?
Click to expand...

Actually, if you're going to do SLI to begin with, I'd recommend buying both cards at the same time - and only if you are certain that you'd be playing those games that take a significant advantage of a second GPU. If you buy one card now and a second card later, you may end up in a situation where the second identical GPU (graphics card with the same GPU) is no longer available for purchase. Otherwise, a single higher-end GPU is usually a better value than two lower-end cards in SLI.

And I would consider any game that delivers too low of a frame rate to be playable at 1280x1024 with even a single mid-range GPU to be just plain sloppy (read: poorly coded), especially if that game's graphics quality isn't that great to begin with.
 
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Well, I think the obvious solution for now is to wait on the video card(s), at least until the new ATI line comes out. My more immediate concerns lie with the motherboard, cooling solution, RAM, and figuring out my hard drive question.
 
The hard drive question is a relatively easy answer: Replace your hard drives with one 40-120GB SSD and one hard drive that uses 500GB drive platters (like the Samsung F3 500GB or 1TB HDD). Due to limitations with the TRIM garbage-collection feature, it's not recommended to buy multiple SSDs to run in RAID mode.

As for the rest of the parts, I really don't know what to say that could convince you to go one way or the other. If you're really trying to get the highest possible overclock possible, then yes, the parts in your OP would work. But I agree with Skull_Angel that a complete watercooling kit is a better option than a CPU-only all-in-one unit like the H70.

The budget, however may have to be revised to a certain degree, as a watercooling kit plus an SSD plus your high-end motherboard and RAM selection could easily go beyond $1000.
 
Going with Combos helps you save money. Heres an i7 930 + x58 mobo + 6gb ddr3 ram combo for $638. 618 after rebate.

If you're trying to save money on your build then just go with the H70. As long as it fits your case it's a good choice and beats even high end air coolers if only by a slight amount. Oh but I have heard it's noisy. So if noise is a worry the H50 is a good choice still but offers slightly less cooling performance. Custom water is expensive.

What is your budget and intended use btw?
 
That combo is garbage for the OP's intended purposes, which are gaming and heavy overclocking. OCZ RAM is unreliable compared to G.Skill and Corsair. Plus, the OP has already bought the i7-930, so you'd have to look for another deal (which I tried to do prior to making my recommendations).
 
tenub said:
I'd like to get some more opinions on this. If it turns out that if my chip is indeed a good overclocker I would prefer to be limited by the chip itself rather than my motherboard and/or cooling solution. So is the P6X58D-E still the best solution in that case?
Click to expand...

Yes. Just about any decent X58 motherboard can OC an i7 past 4Ghz.

tenub said:
I found a review showing that SLI performance can make a difference even at 1280x1024:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-sli-review/9
Click to expand...
Makes a difference yes but you won't actually notice the difference. Can you actually tell the difference between a game at 112FPS and 224FPS?

tenub said:
Edit: I'd also like to discuss my hard drives. Would it be worth changing them out? They are a WDC WD2500JD-98H and a Samsung SP2504C.
Click to expand...
Follow tiraides' advice here. Those drives that you have are easily 3-4 times slower than some of the lastest 500GB drives out now.

tenub said:
Would saving money on these components and getting a nice custom water cooling loop be worth it for a higher overclock? If I don't end up getting an amazing 930, would I rather be limited by my chip itself with the H70 before temperatures become an issue and give rise to instability, in which case all that money on the custom water cooling would potentially be wasted?
Click to expand...
If you were unlucky in getting a not-so good overclocking 930, then yes the money you spent on a water cooling setup would have been a waste if your sole goal was the highest OC possible.

tenub said:
I forgot to mention that I was reading reviews of that particular Dominator RAM in which it was compared to similar G.Skill RAM. In the game tested (Crysis at 1280x1024) the Corsair was somewhere around 5 fps higher. Personally I think the extra $40 may be worth it, especially if I'm running a game around the 25-30 fps mark?

Here's the article: http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1432&pageID=5950
Click to expand...

You would only see that high of a difference if you actually OC the RAM as they did that in that review. At stock speeds, the difference was 3-4FPS. In addition, they only tested one game. And that one game happens to Crysis, widely regarded as poorly coded mess. There's not enough difinitive evidence showing that Dominator RAM providing a noticeable performance over the G.Skill RAM to justify the extra $45 oer the G.Skill set.
 
Trying to keep the rest of this month's purchases under ~$900. I really would prefer to spend less than ~$750 on the motherboard, cooling, and memory though. Next month I'll have another $600 or so to play around with and that's when I was thinking of getting two GTX 460s since I can easily put up with my 8800GTS for a while longer. I was also thinking of SSD, but would I possibly have performance issues 3-10 years down the road? SSD is still relatively new so I was thinking of sticking with SATA for now since SSD technology seems to be changing quite a bit.

I honestly have no experience with water cooling so that's why I chose the H70, basically for ease of installation. I was also taking a look at the Swiftech H20-220 Ultima XT kit or a custom kit, but then I would need someone with experience to help me put together everything so that it would work with my new system. The only thing that worries me with high quality water cooling is my current case which is a Lian Li PC-V1000B. The only way I would be able to get a dual fan radiator working would be to mount it down in the hard drive bay area; even then it would just fit (I think the radiator is 11.2" long and the space is 11.25-11.5"). I'd have to get a 5.25" cage such as this LIAN LI EX-33N HDD Mount Kit. I really would prefer to keep everything internal if I do end up going with a nice water cooling loop. The whole goal would to be able to do this without case modification, ie. purchase of equipment such as a Dremel.
 
What is your primary goal: excellent gaming performance or the highest CPU overclock possible?

SSDs are rated to last at least three to five years with "normal" operation. As long as you're not constantly writing onto the SSD itself, it should last that long. However, you may want to hold off as a new series of SSDs is expected to arrive this holiday season. That said, I still recommend a HDD that uses 500GB drive platters as it will offer similar performance to your two drives in RAID 0.
 
if you're not going to mess with timings the corsair set you chose is probably going to show the better performance, yes. but, with overclocking the full system in mind, you can get a cheaper set to do the same thing if not better.

recently I bought the 3x2Gb g.skill pi 1600MHz cl7 kit (for $155 it seemed like a steal, lol), I wasn't entirely happy at first because the things are as tall as all danmed hell, but I started overclocking the suckers and am very please with their performance. currently I'm running them at 1600MHz 8-8-8-20 1N @ 1.55v and still have room to push them further. I've also gotten them to run 2000MHz 9-9-9-27 1N @ 1.6v, but I was just messing around and didn't bother to see how tight I could get the timings.

can every cheaper set do that? probably not, it really depends on the chips used. I can't tell you which chips what manufacturers use on their different kits' series, but you can probably find out with some digging. the only real fact is that corsair likes to charge a higher premium on their kits because they're a well known name and ppl will buy it regardless, most of the time.
 
I want to push my 930 to its safe limit but not beyond. I'm not going to try and run it at a super high voltage, but I will be pushing it to its safest speed at a respectably high voltage (~1.5 Vcore, maybe less). I'd like for the chip not to be limited by my motherboard or the chip's temperatures. With that in mind, that's why I was thinking of the Rampage III Formula or Extreme and water cooling.

As for the RAM you're probably right. I'm currently using G.Skill 2x2GB DDR2 1000 and have yet to experience an issue with it; I've always been limited by my E8400. It's probably best to save the $40 and put it toward part of a hard drive or water cooling component.

From the responses it looks like I'll be getting a Samsung F3 HD502HJ or a HD103SJ.
 
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