E6600 with Scythe Ninja Plus - temps are almost in the 80s!

SentToSchool - Uh, sorry but, get my Ninja back? I have the Ninja mounted right now. Replacement Ninja? My retailer won't take the CPU or the Ninja back. I have already cleaned both surfaces with isopropyl 91% and there is no need to buy Arctic Silver 5, I have used it all the time during this ordeal. Still have 5 grams left.

Michael Daly - That sounds like a really cool way to test contact areas but I don't have fine chalk, extremely thin paper or no-drying ink. Not exactly stuff you keep in your drawers. Not in this country, anyway ;)

dolphumous - Thanks for your great paint skills! I suspect one of the surfaces might be concave, but which one? Are you implying it's the Ninja? Because I get just as sucky temperatures with the stock cooler.

Now, since I can't send this shit back I've been looking at this guide: http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=71 ...and I am planning to go to a store and buy some sandpaper (I hope they understand what "600 grit" means) and then lap the CPU and then lap the ninja. Geez, what a project. My only fear is that I destroy the CPU while lapping (I heard the pins on the back are very sensitive).
 
Two links that may be of interest. First, like someone else already pointed out, the one photo shows your Ninja resting on the capacitors next to the CPU socket. My E6600/Ninja Plus Rev.B/DS3 did the same thing. I took a dremel tool with a cutoff wheel and removed part of the ninja lower bracket (screws on to the bottom of the heatsink and has the plastic push pins in it) -- just cut straight across to remove the round part that sticks out. When I remounted it the caps were completely clear. See the following thread for more info possibly.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35079#296134

Since pressing down on the CPU seems to drop your temps, you can try the following link for a solution. Next time I take my Ninja off I plan to remount it with this setup (screws and springs). I'd lap the ninja first though, which I think I need to do with mine also.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=117054&highlight=scythe
 
Xschtar said:
dolphumous - Thanks for your great paint skills! I suspect one of the surfaces might be concave, but which one? Are you implying it's the Ninja? Because I get just as sucky temperatures with the stock cooler.
Click to expand...

Do you know what the heatspreader is?
It's the metal plate on top of the CPU core. Sure, the ninja may not be flat but the picture I posted shows you how the outside edges of the CPU are pressing against the Ninja. Meaning that the center on the CPU is lower than the outsides. Meaning your processor is concave.

Here's what I bought and it's sitting on my desk right now. Maybe latter today I'll rip this apart and start the project. I'm going to take a (hopefully) nice set of pictures of the whole ordeal. Maybe it can help you out too.
http://www.easypckits.com/products/hslkwg/

Xschtar said:
My only fear is that I destroy the CPU while lapping (I heard the pins on the back are very sensitive).
Click to expand...

There are no pins on the back. The pins are now on the motherboard.
Wikipedia said:
LGA stands for Land Grid Array. The word "socket" is now a misnomer, because an LGA775 motherboard has no socket holes, instead it has 775 protruding pins which touch contact points on the underside of the processor (CPU).
Click to expand...

You should take some time and read this too. Since every picture you've shown has too much or too little thermal interface material.
I understand this will only work out if both the heatsink and the cpu are flat but this is how it's supposed to work.

Click the bottom right hand radio button here:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/ins_route_step2intelas5.html
 
ncseng said:
Two links that may be of interest. First, like someone else already pointed out, the one photo shows your Ninja resting on the capacitors next to the CPU socket. My E6600/Ninja Plus Rev.B/DS3 did the same thing. I took a dremel tool with a cutoff wheel and removed part of the ninja lower bracket (screws on to the bottom of the heatsink and has the plastic push pins in it) -- just cut straight across to remove the round part that sticks out. When I remounted it the caps were completely clear. See the following thread for more info possibly.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35079#296134

Since pressing down on the CPU seems to drop your temps, you can try the following link for a solution. Next time I take my Ninja off I plan to remount it with this setup (screws and springs). I'd lap the ninja first though, which I think I need to do with mine also.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=117054&highlight=scythe
Click to expand...


hey i read that second thread as well on xtremesystems. i just got in the mail the TT bolt-thru retention kit for heatsinks.

in 2-3 days i am taking my rig apart and lappying the HS & chip and remounting the Ninja with the TT kit. i checked it out and from what i can tell you need nothing in addition to mount the Ninja with it, except maybe some plastic washers - plus having a backplate is better than just using the screws as the mod says to do.


i also had an issue where my ninja rested on some capacitors on my dQ6 pretty much exactly like in this OP's pic on his p5B.

i bought a dremel and ground down the offending part on the ninja, remounted very carefully and only dropped about 2-3c in temps. i use the information on the as5 website to apply my as5 correctly.

i have a feeling that my temps are too high because of a bad chip heatsink and/or ninja heatsink being concave or not even and also because of those crummy plastic clips that intel burdened us with.
 
Xschtar said:
That sounds like a really cool way to test contact areas but I don't have fine chalk, extremely thin paper or no-drying ink. Not exactly stuff you keep in your drawers. Not in this country, anyway ;)
Click to expand...

What about good old-fashioned carbon paper - the stuff they used to use to make duplicate copies in a typewriter? That's only coated on one side, but you could do it twice and it would be just the right type of material. You might also be able to use the inked paper used between sheets of paper for multi-part handwritten forms - like bills of sale or order forms.
 
I may be wrong, but I had a similar problem with a Scythe Mine cooler.

When I pushed the tabs down, one of them didn't go through all the way, so it wasn't making correct contact. I could hold the mobo by the cooler and it *seemed* like all four tabs were very solid, but one of them wasn't, and that caused temps to skyrocket.

dunno if that's the case here or not. Just offering my experience.
 
thers alot to raed sorry, is ur e6600 oced?
on stock coolin i idel 42C load 53C.
you also sayd u applied more thermal paste. idk but i dont think u wanna apply to much because u want a thin layer.
 
Umm, I've said this a few times but the problem is not with the thermal paste. I've tried using very little, moderate amount and very much. I have reapplied 8 times. No real difference. Anyways, lapping the Ninja and the CPU tomorrow, returning with the results. Hopefully good news.

And I just wanna say I truly *hate* the plastic clips mounting solution. Why can't we just have screws? It would be a hell of a lot easier.
 
I have now lapped the IHS (very nice results, all copper), lapped the Ninja (it was a bit concave) and cut off the piece that was resting on the transistors. Have pictures of it all. Guess the result in temperatures? NOTHING! Exactly the same temps as before. No difference between Ninja and stock cooler - no overclock, 45 / 62, overclock at 3.2GHz 63 / 83. But I think the temps have gotten worse because now I can't run with FSB 375 anyone, have to go down to 350 with stock cooler to keep it stable. Also, my CPU requires extremely high voltage levels for stability. I'm starting to give up and play Quake on an old P2 the rest of my life...
 
I have a 6600 and a ninja....not to impressed with the ninja....
when I got it my temps were not great by any means but core temp was just getting out
and we had the ds3 boys posting their temps and asus temps and they were all about 10C difference.

before checking it I was seeing temps that were almost like yours.
I got a piece of glass and some 800 grit sand paper and starting lapping.
(NO I AM NOT AN EXPERT by any means)

I dont' know if I could draw the image in ascii but the contact I was seeing was one end and down the sides equally about half way. a big U so I turned the thing around thinking I was dragging it across the paper and cocking up the leading edge...nope I was not the U turned around and was still the exact same way.

as I lapped the thing the U finally finished making it to the far end, more lapping and it finally filled in the U and I had marks over the entire surface...IT WAS CRAP!!!! NO CONTACT IN THE CENTER AT ALL

so 1200 1600 2000 and finally 2200 paper and it was as good as I was going to get.

8C drop in temps idle and 10C at load.

mine with core temp
stock 38C idle 49C load
350 43C idle 52C load
400 48C idle 59C load

I have had it up to 425 max it will go with my setup because of temps load are 63-64C

I wish I had water or phase to see just how high this would go...it will do 365 all stock voltages on board.

overall ninjas and I am sure all cheap HS are trash
 
I just lapped mine yesterday (Ninja and CPU). A couple C drop but I'm waiting to see how well it is after about a week once the AS5 breaks in.

Idle now:
43/44

Load:
54/55

Running (400x8).

I'm thinking about getting the Tuniq or Ultra-120 since they have screws and a backplate. I dislike these push pins.
 
dolphumous those are some very nice temps for a 6600.
what voltage on your cpu at 400?

IF I could get those temps I would be running 400 LOL

is the Tuniq still the champ of the air coolers?
 
sparks said:
dolphumous those are some very nice temps for a 6600.
what voltage on your cpu at 400?
Click to expand...

I don't think my temps are that great. I'm sticking it out with the Ninja for now because I hate taking my motherboard out.

In BIOS:
  • 1.325

In Windows:
  • Idle 1.312
  • Full load 1.28
I was going to do the Vdrop mod so it doesn't have it any more but I haven't gotten around to it yet.


And yeah, I think the Tuniq is still king.
 
I am just going to have to accept that my E6600 will never reach temperatures below 45 degrees, and with a small overclock I'm happy if it stays under 80 degrees. I just guess I have bad luck. I've done everything imagionable and then some. I probably just have a bad processor. Some fabrication error or something. I replaced the plastic clips of the Ninja with the plastic clips of the stock cooler (the clips on the Intel cooler seemed tighter) and, and I said before, throuroughly lapped the CPU and the Ninja, sawed off the offending part on the Ninja pressing on the transistors, and applied thermal paste according to the Arctic Silver homepage (and according to everyone else). The results?

Well, I am now relatively happy. With no overclock, idle 44 and load 59. With overclock at FSB 350, 3,15GHz, idle 50 and load 70. Not too bad, huh? It doesn't get any better.

I need almost 1.450v to be stable at this overclock. An overclock of FSB 400, 3,6GHz, would require at least 1.500v (1.600v?) to be stable and generate temperatures of idle 60-65, load 80-85. And I don't wanna do that.
 
Xschtar said:
With no overclock, idle 44 and load 59.
Click to expand...

Are you using the MB to control the fan speed? If so, try fiddling the speed vs temp parameters. My temps were 30C idle and 51C full bore. I set the max fan speed to 100% at 50C and min to 30% at 20C and the temps dropped to 27C and 48C respectively. Pushing up the fan speeds from default seemed to help. The Easy Tune utility is the easiest way to do this.

You might squeeze a few degrees out of the thing by fine tuning the fan speeds. As well, you should check to make sure that you've got adequate flow through the case. I set the intake fans to full speed always and bumped up the output fans a bit and that dropped a couple of degrees as well (prior to the above changes). Now the only warm air that comes out of the case is that directly from the PSU.
 
When the fan speeds are all at max, I get 2 degrees lower temperatures. I keep all the fans at minimum except the CPU fan, which is at max. I've already tried all combinations of fan speeds, it makes little difference. I have no airflow issues, I have 4 intake fans and 2 outtake fans. The warmest air comes out of the PSU, but I don't see how that could affect the much too high temperatures I have been experiencing.
 
Have you tried the pressure mounting thing that someone posted? Also, you could probably try something that a guy over at ocforums did. He used an Infinity rather than a Ninja, but I don't know how much of a difference that would make. He didn't get the greatest results about 4 degrees on idle and about two on load for all the hard work. If nothing else you could try out the thermal paste on the heatpipes idea. Apparently, he just spread some around at the base of the heatpipes and it's supposed to help a bit.

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=494855

EDIT:

Here is the website for the pressure mounting in case you didn't see it before. According to the writeup there is a 3 - 6 degree difference :)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=117054&highlight=scythe

One last thing, I know you said you throughly lapped the ninja and CPU but have you tried it a second time? Also, it may be a good idea to use the flatness method that someone else posted (with the razor blade.) I read somewhere about another option that had to do with the screens on many front and back doors on a house. I would assume they are used to keep the bugs out, but apparently serve the flat test well.
 
Wow, this must be really frustrating. There seems to be a terrible connection between the HSF and CPU. That can be the only solution. But when I look at the back of your motherboard, I see that the HSF is installed properly. The black pins are in all the way, which is what it's supposed to look like when it's mounted.
So, maybe the solution could have been the HSF, but then you said the stock heatsink did the same thing. So, that proves that it isn't the HSF. Intel tests all their CPU's a whole lot before they send them out for sale. I have no clue what the problem could be, but maybe calling Intel and Scythe could help you out. Your problem really sux, you spent a lot of money for a great build, and it isn't working out. But hang in there, it can be fixed.
 
I e-mailed Intel some time ago but never got a reply. Might be easier if you live in the US. My retailer knows nothing about anything. Some pictures from my latest adventures:

After I had sawed off the piece of metal touching stuff on the motherboard when mounted (I know, getto, but it works):



As you can see, it now doesn't touch anything?



After a few minutes lapping the CPU. Notice how unevently the metal-couloured metal (ten?) goes away. This is a sign of concavity, right? I don't know, lapped anyway.



Finished lapping the CPU with wet sand paper grit 240 and then some with 600.



Right after I begun lapping the Ninja. Does it look concave?



Finished lapping the Ninja. It doesn't look very even, though. Bad lapjob?



So I did it all... and notice: my temperature is still very high. This dropped the temp a few degrees, which is more than I first expected. Now at FSB 350 I idle 52, load 72.
 
Here's my finished product. I got sick of lapping it.

IMG_1761.jpg


I started with 600 but moved up to 1200ish towards the end.

I lapped the ninja too but I still think the mounting is to blame for it's issues.

Also, how did you lap it? I used wet/dry sandpaper and a piece of glass.
Wet down the paper on top of the glass and took my time.

The ninja was different though. I set the ninja upside down since it was so large and held the glass on top of it.

Flatness is the key to lapping.
 
Yes, it was hard to lap the Ninja. Maybe if my temps get higher I'll relap it someday. LOL, in fact, all my temps have risen 3 degrees since I mounted :) Dunno why. Maybe the mounting system has already gotten sloppy, or the thermal paste has... gone away... or something. I had a piece of glass, of course, and tried lapping the Ninja as I had the CPU, with the copper piece down towards the mirror with sandpaper. Difficult, as you say, because of the size. Therefore, the results maybe weren't the best. But then again, your CPU is really shiny. That's nice but the performance increase is very small once you got a flat CPU. You can lap it until you can see your own face in it from 200 meters away like some super mirror, but it won't give you any better temperatures. Maybe one degree or something, max. That's why I don't go to finer sandpaper than 600... I just doubt it's worth it.

But yeah, I think the mounting system sucks and it just can't support the weight of a big cooler in vertical position and retain all the pressure on the CPU necessary for good temperatures. Maybe some day I'll redo the mounting system... but right now everything just feels so hopeless...
 
Xschtar I didn't know they had changed their mounting.
Mine has the back plate and some STRONG spring clips to hold it on.
When did they change to the push pin S#$% . that has always been a piss poor way to mount anything, I don't even think its worth a damn for the nb or sb passive coolers..but better than last gen loops and springs....WHAT MORON comes up with this stuff...some accountant I bet.
 
That's a socket thing... All socket LGA775 stuff has crummy plastic clips on it, totally useless. Which socket are you talking about? I liked the 939 socket...
 
theres your problem. you have to push the shipq out of those clips to seat them well and with the heatsink in the way its a royal pain, bet a buck one was not all the way seated.
 
You would really bet one dollar that I have done the exact same error when mounting the cooler 12 times, even though I have pictures in this thread of all the pins pushed through properly? And that I, after two weeks of experimenting with the heatsink, still don't understand how to push on the plastic clips to make them click?

Let me correct you... There's not my problem.
 
shipq guess I do, wrong thread .

but since I am in for a buck now, might as well ....
I just installed the stock cooler for the first time, and the temperatures dropped 10 degrees. This is really fucked up, sorry for the language but I am really disappointed right now. I've now been running at insane temps for almost a month, thinking my CPU was maxing at 45 degrees, and now I run the stock cooler instead of this 100 dollar copper giant, and my temps drop 10 degrees. I am gonna mail the store now and ask for a new one.
Click to expand...

I see good contact patterns and you have lapped everything in sight pretty well. I begin to wonder if some manufacturing defect (little or none of whatever they put in those heatpipes) could be the issue. Under load with the fan on low does that heatsink heat up ? It should get pretty darn warm pretty quick ?
 
The Ninja stays very cool, which is strange. Even after 10 minutes full load you barely feel the warmth. The stock cooler gets kiiinda warm but not so much. Now, the stock heatsink is smaller so I guess it's the same heat in a smaller space. I don't know what the quote was, but first time I mounted the stock cooler I got better results than the Ninja, but right now they're pretty much equal. The CPU doesn't really care about the heatsink. I could smack on a 20kg copper monster with 25 fans and I would still not get below 45 degrees Celsius. Now I just go with the Ninja because it feels better... hopefully the thermal paste will "set in" or something in a few weeks, at least some people say so. I honestly don't understand what good would happen with the thermal paste over time, though... but I'm sure they know what they're talking about.

Oh and btw, I live in Sweden. We have polar bears and snow here. Merry christmas everybody!
 
That heatsink must be defective, it should outperform the stock by quite a bit and you should be able to feel it heating up at the cpu temps you report and I am convinced you have it mounted correctly and lapped well and basically done everything humanly possible to determine the issue. The high Vcore even convinces me more, that thing should be getting pretty warm to the touch unless you are in an igloo with the AC on.

This is of some interest but it will not solve your issue. The chart about 2/3 way down the page is a 4 week measurment of AS5 performance over time.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1389/

I have snow here too, but if I see a polar bear I am getting the hell out of here in a hurry, we do have black bears but when the bears get 12ft (4 meters) tall, I am not going to be around to see it.
 
Yeah, it looks kind of uneven on that picture. I don't know why but I am pretty sure it *is* quite even... I tested with a razorblade...
 
Dude, if your Ninja is not hot and your CPU is flaming hot then obviously there isn't much of a connection between the two.
 
I have had the same troubles with my Ninja. I bought this because it was recommended on the sticky for LGA775 procs, something that IMO should be removed in light of how many people are complaining about this problem.

Im getting a Tuniq if lapping doesnt work.... f this.
 
sorry to bump into your post but i have the same problem with the same board and same cpu. i;m using stocking cooler

i;m overclocked my to 2.8ghz. stock voltage for everything

idle: 53/55
load 64/66

still waiting for the TIM to break it so it might get like 5 degress cooler.

this has happened to me for a while before the temps were ever higher but i reapplied the TIM and it went down 7 degress so you can imagine how hot it was before.

but i've just basically ignored it and moved on... "never give up" i gave up a long time ago.

i think is the region of the cpu sensor on the board. i have heard that the P5W-Dh can register temperture 10 degress higher than it actually is but that doesn;t seem like a problem since your cooler is cool but chip is hot.

lapping: has anyone thought about that fact that lapping removies quite a bit of the copper seating on the headsink and that would increase the gap of the chip and the heatsink even when it is properly mounted. a gap of 0.01 inch to 0.03 inch is a big difference when trying to get the TIM to contact. too less won't get them in touch with each other...to much may create air holes and even act as an insulator...both defeating the purpose of TIM.


Good Luck

http://support.asus.com/faq/faq.aspx...Language=en-us

Question:

"The motherboard temperature reading from P5W DH Deluxe is significantly higher (by almost 10 degrees) than most other motherboards.
Is that normal? If so, what is a safe temperature range on this motheboard?

Answer:

It should be normal if the motherboard temperature is within the range of 40~65 degrees Celsius.

The motherboard temperature sensor has been placed between ICH7R Silicon Image 4723.

This is the second hottest place on the motherboard apart from the CPU, also at the airway of chassis fan, to ensure Q'Fan2 is capable of managing chassis fans in the most efficient manner.

Hence, it means the motherboard temperature reading on this board may be quite hot as compared to other motherboards when its overall temperature is not really that much hotter.

courtesy of abcdelight for getting me this info in another thread
 
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