E-waste Recycler Facing Prison for Copyright Infringement

thesmokingman said:
Pretty sure I replied with the answer. You're just not reading it lol.
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I don't see an answer to my question, or you're deliberately talking like an MS lawyer. In the most ambiguous way possible.

But let's try that again.

The question was: Can I sell my laptop that has a pre-installed windows on it or not.
 
M76 said:
I don't see an answer to my question, or you're deliberately talking like an MS lawyer. In the most ambiguous way possible.

But let's try that again.

The question was: Can I sell my laptop that has a pre-installed windows on it or not.
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You're being obtuse on purpose. Retardly so. You can sell your effing laptop all you want. The license ISN'T YOURS TO SELL. You're not the license holder, you have no rights to it.
 
Teenk9 said:
How would you be in violation of anything when that's exactly how it's supposed to be. What the guy did was nowhere near what you just described.
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So selling oem licenses that came with a computer but was never activated on that computer is how it's supposed to be?

The guy was selling old computers that had OEM windows licenses, and he decided to include the oem install disks with them, only the disks weren't original but copies. But correct me if that is not what he was doing.
 
thesmokingman said:
You're being obtuse on purpose. Retardly so. You can sell your effing laptop all you want. The license ISN'T YOURS TO SELL. You're not the license holder, you have no rights to it.
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But it's the same damn thing. If I sell my laptop with the windows license attached, he can sell PCs the same way. The license was already attached to them. He wasn't giving away free copies of windows, he was just including an install disk for the pcs that already had a valid oem license attached to them.
 
M76 said:
But it's the same damn thing. If I sell my laptop with the windows license attached, he can sell PCs the same way. The license was already attached to them. He wasn't giving away free copies of windows, he was just including an install disk for the pcs that already had a valid oem license attached to them.
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And yet he's facing prison time. But never mind that rofl.
 
M76 said:
But it's the same damn thing. If I sell my laptop with the windows license attached, he can sell PCs the same way. The license was already attached to them. He wasn't giving away free copies of windows, he was just including an install disk for the pcs that already had a valid oem license attached to them.
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You might wanna go back and read post #51.
 
just including an install disk for the pcs that already had a valid oem license attached to them
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Was he including the correct locked down OEM version that can only install on a select few OEM machines from the OEM.
 
thesmokingman said:
No no no no, he can't keep arguing out his bum that way.
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All you had to say was "he was selling the install disks themselves" and it would've been over, you choose leave me in the false belief that he was selling refurbished computers with their original windows versions with the oem stickers and keys stilll attached.
 
M76 said:
All you had to say was "he was selling the install disks themselves" and it would've been over, you choose leave me in the false belief that he was selling refurbished computers with their original windows versions with the oem stickers and keys stilll attached.
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Try reading the freaking article sometime?????

These are OEM computers after all and each one came with a non-transferable license so he figured it wasn't a big deal to reprint the disks and sell them with the used systems.
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M76 said:
So selling oem licenses that came with a computer but was never activated on that computer is how it's supposed to be?

The guy was selling old computers that had OEM windows licenses, and he decided to include the oem install disks with them, only the disks weren't original but copies. But correct me if that is not what he was doing.
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He wasn't including OEM install disks! This has been pointed out throughout the thread. He had 28K OEM install disks copied and shipped from China to sell here in the States. That's nowhere near what you described in your earlier post.
 
parawing742 said:
Since the discs were intercepted before he sold any of them, it's hard to know if he was intending to make a profit on the sales of the discs or if he was just planning to include them along with refurbished computers.
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Except that he admitted to the Judge that he intended to sell them.

I understand that this guy has done some things that look pretty noble actually. It's just that this isn't one of them.

The Judge said something that was quoted in the article and it was sort of hard to understand just what he meant.

“This case is especially difficult, because of who you are today and in terms of who you have become.”
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The Judge's comment doesn't make much sense to me as it's written. Who you are today is who you have become so .... Yea this is like how drunk people talk. But I do think I understand what the Judge was trying to say.

I think he was trying to say that He's looking at a guy who has done really great things, really awesome and selfless things, and now he did this. And that the Judge is having a hard time reconciling how this great guy has come down to do something so low. And I think this is exactly what he is trying to tell him too.

The Judge gave the guy half of the normal lowest punishment for the crime he was charged with. Had to be a reason for it.
 
M76 said:
I don't see an answer to my question, or you're deliberately talking like an MS lawyer. In the most ambiguous way possible.

But let's try that again.

The question was: Can I sell my laptop that has a pre-installed windows on it or not.
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Ask that question & you'll get many different answers from each Microsoft licencing rep you talk to.

As an individual, for a one time thing, if you sell it with the OS on it & it came that way from the factory, AND you include the ORIGINAL factory OS install media with it & the system still has either the COA sticker or the newer little windows hologram version sticker on it, you are probably fine.
As a business, you are probably going to have to stump up more money to Microsoft for either yet another full OS licence or sign up for a new agreement and then buy a new a "refurbisher" licence, (which won't work on most OEM Bios Activated system licenses) and only go Windows 10 on it in order not to get them upset at you.

So as a Business, just sell it with NO operating system at all, or use a Linux version that is completely clean of any proprietary add ons.
 
He was in the wrong but it could have been handled better. Jail time makes no sense. A fine that wiped out the profits he made due to the Disks he sold would have been adequate.
 
{NG}Fidel said:
He was in the wrong but it could have been handled better. Jail time makes no sense. A fine that wiped out the profits he made due to the Disks he sold would have been adequate.
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The fact he never sold a disc is an issue.

Senior U.S. District Judge Daniel T.K. Hurley observed that none of the discs Lundgren made were actually sold and declined to order him to pay restitution. Hurley imposed a 15-month sentence that was less than half of that called for by federal sentencing guidelines, which indicated 36 to 47 months.

In court, the judge made it clear that this was a tough case.

“This case is especially difficult,” Hurley told Lundgren at his sentencing last May, “because of who you are today and in terms of who you have become.” The judge received evidence of Lundgren’s recycling company, IT Asset Partners, his projects to clean up e-waste in Ghana and China and a 2016 initiative in which Lundgren’s company repaired and donated more than 14,000 cellphones and $100,000 to “Cellphones for Soldiers” to benefit U.S. soldiers deployed overseas.
 
cageymaru said:
The fact he never sold a disc is an issue.

Senior U.S. District Judge Daniel T.K. Hurley observed that none of the discs Lundgren made were actually sold and declined to order him to pay restitution. Hurley imposed a 15-month sentence that was less than half of that called for by federal sentencing guidelines, which indicated 36 to 47 months.

In court, the judge made it clear that this was a tough case.

“This case is especially difficult,” Hurley told Lundgren at his sentencing last May, “because of who you are today and in terms of who you have become.” The judge received evidence of Lundgren’s recycling company, IT Asset Partners, his projects to clean up e-waste in Ghana and China and a 2016 initiative in which Lundgren’s company repaired and donated more than 14,000 cellphones and $100,000 to “Cellphones for Soldiers” to benefit U.S. soldiers deployed overseas.
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Damn thats more messed up...
 
lcpiper said:
Where do you guys get this idea that going to prison is something we should only do with violent offenders?

We've been sending people to prison for non-violent crimes since at least the civil war.

All of a sudden we have people that think it's wrong because nobody was physically hurt. Is it because you just don't think that it should be that way or is it that you think it's never been that way?
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Dah fuq you talking about, I state right there it’s the law and those are the sentences. You break the law, no matter how ridiculous, you pay the price. In this case, prison time maybe a bit harsh for what he did (but I bet anyone that reads the article won’t do it, jail is a good deterrent!) and perhaps he could have gotten more hours of community service, or home monitoring for years or something.
 
lcpiper said:
Except that he admitted to the Judge that he intended to sell them.

I understand that this guy has done some things that look pretty noble actually. It's just that this isn't one of them.

The Judge said something that was quoted in the article and it was sort of hard to understand just what he meant.



The Judge's comment doesn't make much sense to me as it's written. Who you are today is who you have become so .... Yea this is like how drunk people talk. But I do think I understand what the Judge was trying to say.

I think he was trying to say that He's looking at a guy who has done really great things, really awesome and selfless things, and now he did this. And that the Judge is having a hard time reconciling how this great guy has come down to do something so low. And I think this is exactly what he is trying to tell him too.

The Judge gave the guy half of the normal lowest punishment for the crime he was charged with. Had to be a reason for it.
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i guess it was because the person thought at the time he was not doing anything wrong at the time until SWAT came into the office/home (i not read the original article but i know it was due to the 28k copies he was going to try and sell, not the refurbished PCs themselves but MS will come after you for that as well if you did not use refurbished windows keys norm windows 10 for $/£20)
 
likeman said:
i guess it was because the person thought at the time he was not doing anything wrong at the time until SWAT came into the office/home (i not read the original article but i know it was due to the 28k copies he was going to try and sell, not the refurbished PCs themselves but MS will come after you for that as well if you did not use refurbished windows keys norm windows 10 for $/£20)
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Why is it you think we believed he wasn't doing anything wrong? Because he said so? and you believe him?

28,000 copies would have required a work force of 10 men working full time jobs for over seven years at one hour a PC to restore enough PCs to exhaust the supply of disks. Long if it takes longer to restore them, I'm best casing it.

I think it's the volume of disks, far beyond what sounds reasonable in the face of his claim that is the deciding factor. Ten men working 40 hour weeks refurbishing 400 PCs a week for seven years. The scale is what throws it off. Now if he actually had 20 or 30 guys working full time and he was actually doing it, proof shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise, it's entirely reasonable to believe that he was going to sell those disks for profit.

Do you think this sounds more dramatic if you say "S.W.A.T. came into ..." ?
 
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Mugato said:
Dah fuq you talking about, I state right there it’s the law and those are the sentences. You break the law, no matter how ridiculous, you pay the price. In this case, prison time maybe a bit harsh for what he did (but I bet anyone that reads the article won’t do it, jail is a good deterrent!) and perhaps he could have gotten more hours of community service, or home monitoring for years or something.
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Yes, you are clear about the law being the law, but you go right back to saying prison time seems too harsh. I'm not sure how or why you think I am misunderstanding you. Your statements do seem clear enough to me, that you believe non-violent crimes shouldn't be punished with jail-time.

I'll clarify myself ... 1st, you can "think" or "believe" what you want. If you don't think non-violent offenders should do jail-time then that's fine.

2nd, That that is not how it is, and there are many crimes that are non-violent and will draw a prison sentence.

3rd, I think if you are going to successfully argue a point, it'll work out better for you if you don't screw over your position with additional comments that invalidate it. Remember, the Judge cut his sentence in half for the lowest normal sentence, 1 year on a charge that normally draws 2 to 5. Most people would not call this "throwing the book at him".
 
lcpiper said:
28,000 copies would have required a work force of 10 men working full time jobs for over seven years at one hour a PC to restore enough PCs to exhaust the supply of disks. Long if it takes longer to restore them, I'm best casing it.
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1 person can be working on 50+ systems at one time when it comes to testing & installing the OS in batch mode.
When doing the automated installs based on configuration scripts (usually on a USB for the script and then media or PXE for install media), a well setup operation could configure 100+ OS installs per worker per day.
 
Mugato said:
On the one hand, he did not physically hurt anyone, so yes, seems like they went way overboard to include him in with violent offenders. On the other, he did break the law, however stupid it is.
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I can't argue whether or not he broke the law, but in my opinion sentencing for something like this should be based on intent. He clearly did not think he was breaking the law, nor did he intend to rip off Microsoft. Those machines he rebuilt already had windows licenses, it would have been reasonable to otherwise assume that they could still be used. I mean, fine him, go after his business or whatever, but the guy does NOT deserve prison time.
 
James21 said:
Microsoft likes to double and triple dip on their "licencing costs"
Basically the original OEM paid Microsoft for a licence that supposedly is good forever on that particular PC
Microsoft wanted to be paid a second time for the same software license on the same computer.
Microsoft got pissed when he wouldn't paid them a second time for what they got paid for the first time.

This is why Linux needs to rule and people need to just get used to it on the desktop
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so happen if your hard drive dies during warranty? I see hard drive dies in 6 mth.? What if the hard drive has a 5 yr. warranty? Does that mean every time a hard drive dies, when a newly replaced drive arrives, you are supposedly to pay microsoft a 2nd copy of the Windows? Because I have call Microsoft on behalf of clients, on Office lic. that they lost due to dead hard drive. And Microsoft just issue a replacement file by email and ask us to download it.

I still don't understand what exactly did this guy done that is really illegal.
 
lcpiper said:
Why is it you think we believed he wasn't doing anything wrong? Because he said so? and you believe him?

28,000 copies would have required a work force of 10 men working full time jobs for over seven years at one hour a PC to restore enough PCs to exhaust the supply of disks. Long if it takes longer to restore them, I'm best casing it.

I think it's the volume of disks, far beyond what sounds reasonable in the face of his claim that is the deciding factor. Ten men working 40 hour weeks refurbishing 400 PCs a week for seven years. The scale is what throws it off. Now if he actually had 20 or 30 guys working full time and he was actually doing it, proof shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise, it's entirely reasonable to believe that he was going to sell those disks for profit.

Do you think this sounds more dramatic if you say "S.W.A.T. came into ..." ?
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you basically said what i said (but seem to infer that i said he was refurbing 28k PCs) it was the 28K dvds he was trying to sell was the issue (the PCs themselves with the OEM keys been used to reload them they could have issue with as well)

M$ has a thing about reselling computers with OEM keys on them (seems they want you to buy a refurbished key which tends to be windows 10 now for about £/$10-20 per PC)
 
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Happy Hopping said:
so happen if your hard drive dies during warranty? I see hard drive dies in 6 mth.? What if the hard drive has a 5 yr. warranty? Does that mean every time a hard drive dies, when a newly replaced drive arrives, you are supposedly to pay microsoft a 2nd copy of the Windows? Because I have call Microsoft on behalf of clients, on Office lic. that they lost due to dead hard drive. And Microsoft just issue a replacement file by email and ask us to download it.

I still don't understand what exactly did this guy done that is really illegal.
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if you own the PC you can reload the PC with the supplied key (windows 7) or if its windows 10 it will just automatically activate when you get internet (digital activation), only time its a issue is if your change the motherboard as the key is tied to the motherboard

what he did or was attempting to do was sell 28k copies of windows isntall DVDs with copyrighted logos (like HP dell MS so on) to make them look genuine
 
likeman said:
you basically said what i said (but seem to infer that i said he was refurbing 28k PCs) it was the 28K dvds he was trying to sell was the issue (the PCs themselves with the OEM keys been used to reload them they could have issue with as well)

M$ has a thing about reselling computers with OEM keys on them (seems they want you to buy a refurbished key which tends to be windows 10 now for about £/$10-20 per PC)
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This was a little while ago, but if I remember correctly, I was challenging the idea that he didn't intend to do something illegal. I think this was his intent all along.

I've seen people get so focused on doing something good, that they wind up convincing themselves that if they have to do something wrong to achieve the good results, that the ends justify the means. Perhaps it was just a monitory reality that to continue recycling PCs and not loosing a lot of money doing it, that he would need to find a way to recoup some of the costs, ergo ..... illegally selling the software.
 
likeman said:
if you own the PC you can reload the PC with the supplied key (windows 7) or if its windows 10 it will just automatically activate when you get internet (digital activation), only time its a issue is if your change the motherboard as the key is tied to the motherboard

what he did or was attempting to do was sell 28k copies of windows isntall DVDs with copyrighted logos (like HP dell MS so on) to make them look genuine
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Are you saying he did a "Martha Stewart"? Essentially like Martha Stewart who didn't really do insider trading, but lies about it and goes to prison by not doing it?

Because the PC has its own OEM lic. He doesn't need a DVD as part of the package. What PC today c/w a DVD of Windows?
 
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