E-Cigarettes "Potentially as Harmful as Tobacco Cigarettes"

Master_shake_ said:
I quit smoking 5 months ago. I miss smoking.
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I quit smoking a few years ago, I like to puff on herbal beedies every now and then (usually when I'm drinking).
I like the Soex brand; no tobacco tax, so they're cheap enough and they don't taste/smell like ass (herbal cigarettes...).
 
dgingeri said:
Science is made by proving their findings. I see a lot of theory in this, but no proof. There is nothing that even attempts to show that the results of this device are in line with what is shown in actual people.

So far, I've seen two studies, actual credible studies on a wide sample size, one on people and one on medical statistics, that show vaping is FAR, as in 95%, safer than smoking. Medical reports have shown that those who switched from smoking to vaping had 95% fewer doctor visits for smoking related illnesses other than cancer. Yet, I have not seen one single study show equal harm between the two with a sample size above 100 people. I have seen 5 studies that claimed it with sample sizes of less than 30 people, and that is NOT science.

The thing is, the University of Connecticut is a political entity. They are not in it for science. They have not released a single scientific study that has any relevance to anything beyond political pushes for power in the last 40 years. The government, local, state and federal, has lost money due to the people switching away from smoking. Those in the government have to find some way to make up for this, so they have sought out reasons by paying for "scientific studies".

This crap is what we get with government funded "science".
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So people are saying that a recent development is not affecting people as much as something that has been in use for centuries. Sounds legit! All that means is that nobody has been vaping as long as people have been smoking. Shit I started smashing my hand with this hammer, but so far there has not been any lasting damage so it should be fine.
 
raz-0 said:
Not to be callous, but short fatal cancers don't cost society a heck of a lot. Heart disease, COPD, angina, etc. All these longer term illnesses that require long term medical care and treatments, expensive surgery, etc. Those cost a shit ton of money and decrease quality of life. If you die five years earlier form cancer, who cares that much compared to your life being made hellish for 15 years before you croak while upping everyone's cost for medical care?
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Ever know someone who died from cancer?
Treatment can be very expensive unless it is discovered at such a late stage that there is nothing they can do.
Chemo, surgery, radiation treatment, etc. can quickly run into the 100's of thousands over the first year, and even then, the extra year is all you might get.

It would cost much less to drop dead from a heart attack.
 
chaos4u said:
The odd thing about medical care, is that usually in a capitalist market when there is more demand you have other suppliers that meet that demand and increase competition therefore keeping prices in check . but for some reason the medical industry dont play by those rules and every thing just keeps getting more and more costly. with less and less suppliers and now its subsidized guaranteeing that every thing is now more expensive than ever.

the only thing that is similar is that they also blame the customer for the all the problems .
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The more government gets involved in paying for health care, the higher the prices get.
In most states, government already controls over 50% of all health care spending, and you wonder why the prices keep going up?
Just like with education (look at college prices lately?) cost keep going up & up.

Of course once government is in charge of 100% of the health care dollars, they will try to control costs by limiting services, just like we see in counties with socialized health care.
You need testing to see if you have heart disease? They should be able to fit you in next fall. Make sure you cancel the appointment if you died in the mean time, otherwise they'll charge your estate for a no-show.

If you are rich, you can always pay for treatment, but everyone else will be stuck with the socialize system because after all the new taxes to pay for it, they won't be able to afford to pay for care outside the system.
 
Has anybody been able to read the entire journal article without having to pay $40 to read it?
 
seems to be more about the flavouring and missing experience what it can do to the body when inhaled instead of digested

and not from vaping itself per se

https://arstechnica.com/science/201...eds-of-immune-system-genes-regular-cigs-dont/

The flavorings that seemed to have the most potent gene-altering effects were additives that taste like cinnamon—cinnamaldehyde—as well as butter flavors.

These flavorings are considered safe, Jaspers pointed out—but only for eating. The additives are categorized as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for food and beverages, but they have never been tested for safety when inhaled
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Gigantopithecus said:
He showed me mass spec results from hardware that was junk and it was loaded with nickel, which when aerosolized and inhaled at the concentrations he found, is really, really bad for you. Some of the cheap ejuices are filled with all sorts of nasty chemical additives.
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that as well
Nickel might be nice to look at, but I already learned in school it can be bad for you
normally you're not holding or nibbling on something made out of the more problematic metals all day long

that's what we have titanium or medical grade steel have for
 
Someone else said it depends on the quality of hardware and juice, I agree with this.

What I noticed when I went from cigs to vaping was I actually felt way better, I wasn't constantly lethargic and achy all the time anymore.

Then one blew up in my face. I ended up in the trauma unit (ER) with a fractured eye-socket bone, a small hole in my lip and a large hole in my leg (was sitting down) and various pieces of shrapnel embedded in me. The battery left the device and flew around my apartment like a missile lighting various things on fire and melting holes in my carpet straight through to the floor. All from one single 18650. This probably wouldn't have happened if I spent a little extra money on a more reputable mod, and shouldn't really deter you from vaping - but these things do happen. I got really lucky, I could have lost my eyes and fingers etc.
 
chaos4u said:
I guess i will never understand the whole draw of smoking vaping or intoxicating ones body . although maybe I
should look into it maybe there is a huge payday at the end ?
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I'm pretty sure every smoker on the planet was simply a dumbass kid trying to look cool at one point and got themselves addicted. The problem I have with vaping is that it is sanitizing an unhealthy action to the point that i think even MORE people are going to become addicted than they would to cigarettes. I mean the vaping scene is already being popularized with slang references to devices, mods, the chemicals used, competitions, art, etc. They're trying to make it cool which will just manipulate impressionable young kids. Basically all the idiots who got addicted to cigs can fuck off and die of lung cancer rather than influence millions more into thinking that vaping is safe.
 
People take up smoking because they are clueless basically I will try vaping so I can be like all the cool kids.
 
cyclone3d said:
PG is arguably not good for your health.

https://draxe.com/propylene-glycol/
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I mean that article really doesn't make a strong case of it being bad for you. Yeah it could possibly damage your liver if you consume large amounts or if you're allergic even worse, but so far the health affects on long term inhalation are relatively unknown but as far as consumption is concerned, it's pretty harmless.
 
Pringle said:
No, actually. I'm quite curious.

Most vapists (?) are former smokers, so I would be wary of comparing the two (unless they purchased their hardware post-cig phase)
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True, but most people who were smokers go outside to smoke. When they switch to vaping they just yolo because it doesn't smell as bad.
 
So let's see: This study has terrible methodology, runs counter to other studies and plays against people's ignorance. Perfect for the masses. . .

They used an iron lung to hit an unknown ecig with an unknown juice, at an unknown wattage for an extended period of time. Most likely combusted the wick in the process, they then treated the burnt extract with silver chloride and mixed the entire thing into an unknown algae DNA plus enzyme simulant. No surprise they got a reaction considering they mixed silver chloride in there, that alone is enough to screw a person up.
 
Using a new low-cost, 3-D printed testing device, UConn researchers found that e-cigarettes loaded with a nicotine-based liquid are potentially as harmful as unfiltered cigarettes when it comes to causing DNA damage.

UConn’s scientists decided to look into whether the chemicals in e-cigarettes could cause damage to human DNA while testing a new electro-optical screening device they developed in their lab. The small 3-D printed device is believed to be the first of its kind capable of quickly detecting DNA damage, or genotoxicity, in environmental samples in the field, the researchers say.
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Did anyone think to, oh, I don't know... check the results with proven testing methods to see if this new device actually works?

This whole article is an ad for their lab and these 3d printed test chips. This sort of crap is the 'fake news' of research and it needs to die in a fire.
 
Can't see the actual study.
Its a sad state of affairs when it comes to vaping.
Instead of serious studies, we get this bullshit.
Why wasn't the fluid tested straight?
Here is why I would like to see that.. the point of proper vaping is to get the fluid in vapor as close that what is in the bottle as possible.
With vaping 'studies' you can fuck around a lot with the 'vaping' part of it.. creating fluids that no vaper would touch. (one 'study' made huge puffs, for a continuous interval cycle, and then call that steady state (when the unit was at a stable high/hot temp)
How long was a puff? .4-1 sec?
What was the control?
No serious studies, leads to bullshit decisions.
The attack on vaping is motivated by protection of cigarette tax revenue. If the regulation concerns was for purity issues, and harm reduction (with proper studies).. it would sound good to me.. but none of the US studies I have read about make real sense, its that pot/ air-choked monkey study all over again.
 
My wife was a pack+ a day smoker and switched to Ecigs. I've got one that I'll take a puff or two on...never was smoker so it's not a big thing for me.

I'm under no illusions that it's "good" for you. But I -know- cigarettes are shit for you. So I look at it as AT WORST they're as bad as cigarettes. And it's a shit ton cheaper.

You really need to be careful and do your research, though. A ton of the e-liquid comes right off the boat from Shanghai and god only knows what's in it.
 
Does Nicotine at least make you high, more alert, anything? Because all the times I tried a real cigarette, the world was spinning and I was nauseous. When I tried the huffing powder, it felt kind of fun because of the aroma and clear sinuses. When I tried ecigs, I felt literally nothing.
I can do like a gram of tramadol or a gram of codeine orally and nothing bad happens (on the contrary) but tobacco I just don't 'get'. Everyone in my family smokes and the smell is annoying, computers are filthy, whatever was white when we bought the flat is now yellow. There are so many fun addictions that can actually get you through a bad day without making you vomit or smell.
What am I doing wrong here. I have an addictive personality and yet I just can't into tobacco. Halp.
 
michalrz said:
Does Nicotine at least make you high, more alert, anything? Because all the times I tried a real cigarette, the world was spinning and I was nauseous. When I tried the huffing powder, it felt kind of fun because of the aroma and clear sinuses. When I tried ecigs, I felt literally nothing.
I can do like a gram of tramadol or a gram of codeine orally and nothing bad happens (on the contrary) but tobacco I just don't 'get'. Everyone in my family smokes and the smell is annoying, computers are filthy, whatever was white when we bought the flat is now yellow. There are so many fun addictions that can actually get you through a bad day without making you vomit or smell.
What am I doing wrong here. I have an addictive personality and yet I just can't into tobacco. Halp.
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What are you doing wrong? You need to smoke regularly, then the spinning and nauseous feeling will go away.
 
yadnom said:
What are you doing wrong? You need to smoke regularly, then the spinning and nauseous feeling will go away.
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Okay, thanks man. I appreciate the advice.

But, will anything good start to happen?
 
All tobacco has ever done for me is give me the spins and/or the runs and a headache.
 
michalrz said:
Does Nicotine at least make you high, more alert, anything? Because all the times I tried a real cigarette, the world was spinning and I was nauseous. When I tried the huffing powder, it felt kind of fun because of the aroma and clear sinuses. When I tried ecigs, I felt literally nothing.
I can do like a gram of tramadol or a gram of codeine orally and nothing bad happens (on the contrary) but tobacco I just don't 'get'. Everyone in my family smokes and the smell is annoying, computers are filthy, whatever was white when we bought the flat is now yellow. There are so many fun addictions that can actually get you through a bad day without making you vomit or smell.
What am I doing wrong here. I have an addictive personality and yet I just can't into tobacco. Halp.
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Nicotine's effects most closely relate to caffeine; they both increase heart rate, improve cognition and are both only mildly addictive at best. Tobacco cigarettes, in addition to the thousands of additives also contain harmine, an MAO-Inhibiter, aka an anti-depressent, which is what results in smoking's calming effect and more likely the cause of the addiction that you don't get with nicotine replacements.
 
cyclone3d said:
PG is arguably not good for your health.

https://draxe.com/propylene-glycol/
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We've also known for a very long time that it's arguably not bad for your health either.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/91/1/52

The results of these experiments in conjunction with the absence of any observed ill effects in patients exposed to both triethylene glycol and propylene glycol vapors for months at a time, provide assurance that air containing these vapors in amounts up to the saturation point is completely harmless.
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Tekara said:
Nicotine's effects most closely relate to caffeine; they both increase heart rate, improve cognition and are both only mildly addictive at best. Tobacco cigarettes, in addition to the thousands of additives also contain harmine, an MAO-Inhibiter, aka an anti-depressent, which is what results in smoking's calming effect and more likely the cause of the addiction that you don't get with nicotine replacements.
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That does explain a lot. Thanks. I knew about the cognition effect but didn't notice it myself. But not about the harmine. Again thanks.

Pringle said:
You're either a lazy troll, or too young.
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I'm 32 and not particularly bright. Don't care for trolling. I'm genuinely sorry if this bothers you.

I did quiz my smoker friends but they mostly mentioned a habit related to 'having something to do' during breaks from work.
 
Without knowing whether they used Vuse or some other tobacco companies vape product (they contain unnecessary additives and is actually what is referred to on the stillblowingsmoke website) , cheap shady foreign made or top notch quality high end domestically made juice. Not much info give about vape device. And some gnarly additive was added to the test. This test doesn't pass the mustard.
 
I look forward to the day that dead vapers lungs become a delicious sweet delicacy to have sliced up after dinner.
 
If the basic vape juice is just as harmful then somebody had better tell the entire medical industry because the liquid base in vape juice is what has been in inhalers and other vapor medicators for decades.
 
dgingeri said:
Science is made by proving their findings. I see a lot of theory in this, but no proof. There is nothing that even attempts to show that the results of this device are in line with what is shown in actual people.

So far, I've seen two studies, actual credible studies on a wide sample size, one on people and one on medical statistics, that show vaping is FAR, as in 95%, safer than smoking. Medical reports have shown that those who switched from smoking to vaping had 95% fewer doctor visits for smoking related illnesses other than cancer. Yet, I have not seen one single study show equal harm between the two with a sample size above 100 people. I have seen 5 studies that claimed it with sample sizes of less than 30 people, and that is NOT science.

The thing is, the University of Connecticut is a political entity. They are not in it for science. They have not released a single scientific study that has any relevance to anything beyond political pushes for power in the last 40 years. The government, local, state and federal, has lost money due to the people switching away from smoking. Those in the government have to find some way to make up for this, so they have sought out reasons by paying for "scientific studies".

This crap is what we get with government funded "science".
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Science does not "prove" things, science is based on the logic of falsification. Hypothesis testing is conducted by failing to disprove the null hypothesis. We can never tell you that we've "proven" something. For example, we can tell you that we believe in gravity. So then we throw an apple in the air. I can then continue doing that and regularly fail to disprove that the apple always falls. My hypothesis strengthens over time the more I conduct the test and when I test the same hypothesis through alternate means (and then other scientists conduct similar tests). But I can't ever tell you the apple will *always* fall. Hypotheses develop into theories and eventually we can derive laws but none of them constitute "proof" in the sense of 100% certainty.
 
Wolf_Tech said:
Heck even my doctor says I'm much better and she fully supports them period.
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It sounds like "much better" implies you were smoking before vaping so it's no surprise your doctor would applaud your choice. Ask her if she thinks you should quit vaping altogether to assess how she feels about vaping as opposed to how she feels about smoking.
 
Dont understand the hate... Must be propaganda... Smoking or even just nicotine use gets a lot hate by a lot of people... Nicotine use or even smoking is a minor risk behavior and quite limited to the user ( at least now a days)... Plenty of others much worse, much more destructive. But hey alcohol is a fiesta, mountain climbing a ' sport' base jumping a ' passion' , helmet less motorcycling a ' right', heroin use a ' temporary mistake'.
 
Uvaman2 said:
Dont understand the hate... Must be propaganda... Smoking or even just nicotine use gets a lot hate by a lot of people... Nicotine use or even smoking is a minor risk behavior and quite limited to the user ( at least now a days)... Plenty of others much worse, much more destructive. But hey alcohol is a fiesta, mountain climbing a ' sport' base jumping a ' passion' , helmet less motorcycling a ' right', heroin use a ' temporary mistake'.
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Unless landing on someone your examples are all potentially self-harmful, smoke/vape is harmful to others (not to mention the smell). Mountain climbing is quite healthy compared to your other examples...granted I don't go for scaling cliffs, so I guess I only mountain walk :)
 
ChoGGi said:
Unless landing on someone your examples are all potentially self-harmful, smoke/vape is harmful to others (not to mention the smell). Mountain climbing is quite healthy compared to your other examples...granted I don't go for scaling cliffs, so I guess I only mountain walk :)
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Drinking is harmful to others in the extreme. Bullshit on vaping or smoking harmful to others.. yeah if you are in a confined space with minimal ventilation smoking of course... Vaping c' mon. Let's not be absurd. Smoking and vaping with minimal effort is limited to the user.
 
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