Dual booting snow leopard and windows 7 in MacBook

sram

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jul 30, 2007
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Hello folks. I bought an apple MacBook for a friend and I want to install windows 7 for him so that he can dual boot. I used Parted magic to partition the 750GB drive into multiple partitions so that I can install 7. When I booted into the windows 64-bit ultimate cd;, things were okay except that when I select the partition to install windows in, it tells me windows can't be installed in this disk because it is of the GPT type. I did searched a little and found that windows has limited support for GPT but also found that windows 7 64-bit should be able to boot from a GPT disk if I have an EFI-based system.

Now, that's the thing. How do I know for sure that I have an EFI-based system? If EFI is a BIOS replacement, then I can say that I have no sign of it in this macbook. There is no POST, no sign of the usual message: press XX key to enter the setup menu. It should be an EFI-based system, right?

So, if that's true, how do I go about installing 7 and bypass the above error message?

Thanks.
 
Why didn't you use Boot Camp on the Macbook to sort out the Win installation ? That way you can create the partition size & get the format right without effecting your OSX installation.

You can find Bootcamp under Utilities in OSX

Andy
 
I came across that in my search but didn't know it is the most common way to do dual booting. Anyways, I went to try it but bad luck is not willing to leave me alone.

It gave me this error message : Boot Camp assistance cannot be used. You must update your system software in order to be able to use it.

What updates? It is a brand new macbook. Even though, I tried downloading update but you know I'm not really familiar with doing mac updates. It will either tell me this update is not supported by this system or this system doesn't need this update.


Thanks.
 
If it is one of the white polycarb macbooks 64 bit OSes are not supported by apple and thus you are on your own installing (doesn't mean it isn't possible though, I have installed Windows x64 many times on macbooks). If it is a Macbook Pro then it is supported out of the box and you should be able to format.

Here is how I always install Windows 7 x64 on my macbook.

Firstly make sure that your disk is a GPT (GUID Partition Table). This way both OS X and windows will boot.

Since OS X is already installed shrink your OSX partition to make room for the windows partition with OS X's Disk Utility. Then Format the free space to be a FAT32 partition.

Restart your mac holding down Option or C to boot to the windows disk.

Start the windows install. At this point you will want to tell windows to format the FAT32 partition you created so that it will be NTFS instead.

Windows will install, doing all of its reboots etc (you need to make sure every time it reboots you hold down the option key to select the windows partition otherwise it will boot the OS X partition as it is still the primary boot drive).

Once windows is installed you will need to insert your OSX disk. If you have a macbook pro then there will be no issues and just install the 64bit Bootcamp drivers and away you go. If you have a macbook it is a bit more complicated. To install the bootcamp drivers go to the Windows 7 Start Menu Type “cmd”, then right-click on the program that appears and choose “Run As Administrator”.

Then enter;

D:
cd "Boot Camp\Drivers\Apple"
msiexec /i BootCamp64.msi

This gets around apple's hardware check and allows you to install 64bit drivers on your perfectly capable macbook. After that if there are bootcamp updates from apple they will install normally under x64.

Hope that helps!
 
If it is one of the white polycarb macbooks 64 bit OSes are not supported by apple and thus you are on your own installing (doesn't mean it isn't possible though, I have installed Windows x64 many times on macbooks).

It is polycarb macbook. Why is it not supported? What is the difference in terms of disk type, EFI, and other software?

If it is a Macbook Pro then it is supported out of the box and you should be able to format.

Not a pro, but if this is the case, I'll tell people to stay away from macbook poly carbonated. I think it is stupid to support it in one model and not in the other. It is been long since windows can be dual booted with OS X.

Here is how I always install Windows 7 x64 on my macbook.

Firstly make sure that your disk is a GPT (GUID Partition Table). This way both OS X and windows will boot.

Well, the drive is definitely GPT, hence that error message.

Since OS X is already installed shrink your OSX partition to make room for the windows partition with OS X's Disk Utility. Then Format the free space to be a FAT32 partition.

I already did that by using parted magic, and I did it again your way. It didn't work. Why Fat32 ? Why not format as NTFS the first time?

Restart your mac holding down Option or C to boot to the windows disk.

Thanks for this tip........... I didn't know it :)

Start the windows install. At this point you will want to tell windows to format the FAT32 partition you created so that it will be NTFS instead.

I still don't understand why the two steps of formatting as FAT32 then NTFS

Windows will install, doing all of its reboots etc (you need to make sure every time it reboots you hold down the option key to select the windows partition otherwise it will boot the OS X partition as it is still the primary boot drive).

It didn't in my case!! It tells me this disk is of the GPT type!

Once windows is installed you will need to insert your OSX disk. If you have a macbook pro then there will be no issues and just install the 64bit Bootcamp drivers and away you go. If you have a macbook it is a bit more complicated. To install the bootcamp drivers go to the Windows 7 Start Menu Type “cmd”, then right-click on the program that appears and choose “Run As Administrator”.

Then enter;

D:
cd "Boot Camp\Drivers\Apple"
msiexec /i BootCamp64.msi

This gets around apple's hardware check and allows you to install 64bit drivers on your perfectly capable macbook. After that if there are bootcamp updates from apple they will install normally under x64.

Well, you know I didn't reach there! Any suggestions? Can I change the whole drive to MBR and install both OS's? How is the boot camp assistance method suggested by another poster looks to you? I'm now doing software updates for my OS X, and I don't if it will help. It is about 1.1GB file, so it will take time with my current slow connection.

Hope that helps!

Sure man, it helped but not to the point where I can dual boot:D

All I need to know is if it is doable or not in this macbook. If it is, I'll take the challenge. I hate to lose. I'll do it.


Thanks to all.
 
If it's new and there's no data on it, flatten the disk and reinstall Snow Leopard. Update it to the latest and greatest version (10.6.6). Then use the Boot Camp Assistant (Applications -> Utilities) to do the partition setup.

Technical info: All Intel Macs, ALL of them, are EFI. Every. Single. One. They all use GPT for the disk partitioning. This is OK. Win7 x64 should still install.
 
If it's new and there's no data on it, flatten the disk and reinstall Snow Leopard. Update it to the latest and greatest version (10.6.6). Then use the Boot Camp Assistant (Applications -> Utilities) to do the partition setup.

Technical info: All Intel Macs, ALL of them, are EFI. Every. Single. One. They all use GPT for the disk partitioning. This is OK. Win7 x64 should still install.

What he said. . .
 
i've used bootcamp so many times it's not even funny. Macbook pros, macbooks, and imacs of various models. I have never had an issues with it. I would highly recommend doing what was mentioned above. I'm not familiar with the 64bit white macbook issue, i usually just install 32bit in case my clients have any software that is finicky with 64 unless they have more than 4gb of memory.
 
The reason for Apple not supporting 64bit is simple. Apple sees a 64 bit OS as being for power users and thus reserves it for their Pro line (I shit you not that is the response I got from the apple support tech when I called and asked). Some of it is also because the original Macbooks used the 32bit CoreDuo Yona processor which was not x64.

So there you have it, more of apple deciding for you what is best and how you should use your computer.

As far as the windows 7 not supporting GPT disks sounds like you may have a bad ISO and should go grab a new one. I haven't had a single problem with GPT disks on any Macs or PCs. You DO have to format in GPT as the mac will not boot from an MBR drive.
 
I did all updates. It is still not working. I already have the latest OS X. Boot camp always gives that stupid error message. What should I do? I think the only update that I chose not to download is the iphoto update. That shouldn't affect anything.

Are you guys saying that I might be successful with 32-bit windows?

And why would the ISO be bad? It is not the first time I use it. It is working.
 
It is getting ridiculous. I spent so much on this. I'm getting really angry. After using the Mac OS disk to restore the disk to how it was, boot camp assistance now stops in the windows support software step. after hours of downloading, it gives me the options to either save the support software to cd/dvd or to an external disk. When I chose to burn to a cd/dvd, nothing happens! If I try to save the support software on external disk, it says an error occurred and the software can't be saved. If in the previous step, I chose "I already download the software and saved it" it will go to the partitioning step where I can choose the size of the windows partition. If I proceed, it will try to partition then after few minutes it will tell me partition failed because some files can't be moved!!!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


I'm pissed of. I'm really frustrated. What on earth is wrong???
 
Support software? Hours of downloading? Huh?

Here's the steps you do:

1. Install OS X Snow Leopard from the disc that came with the Mac.
- DO NOT think ahead on this. Don't partition or plan for Windows. Simply install OS X.

2. After OS X is installed, get to the desktop, and if Software Update doesn't run on it's own, run it. Apply everything (it will update to 10.6.6 and whatever else). Reboot, 10.6.6 woohoo.

3. Applications > Utilities > Boot Camp Assistant. Make the Windows partition as big as you think it needs to be. Follow the prompts. Do what it says to do.

4. At some point you'll reboot with the Win7 DVD. Win7's installer should start. Follow the prompts. I think Boot Camp even tells you beforehand what partition to put Windows on.

5. Win7 installs. Yes, it's going to be missing drivers and things. No sweat.

6. Put the Snow Leopard disc in and run the setup. This is the driver pack/Boot Camp utilities. These are Vista-era drivers, they may not all install. No problem.

7. Get the *latest* Boot Camp drivers from Apple. Here: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979. Install this.

8. Relax, you're done.

Note: Apple's version of what I just told you:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3986
 
Support software? Hours of downloading? Huh?

Here's the steps you do:

1. Install OS X Snow Leopard from the disc that came with the Mac.
- DO NOT think ahead on this. Don't partition or plan for Windows. Simply install OS X.

2. After OS X is installed, get to the desktop, and if Software Update doesn't run on it's own, run it. Apply everything (it will update to 10.6.6 and whatever else). Reboot, 10.6.6 woohoo.

3. Applications > Utilities > Boot Camp Assistant. Make the Windows partition as big as you think it needs to be. Follow the prompts. Do what it says to do.

4. At some point you'll reboot with the Win7 DVD. Win7's installer should start. Follow the prompts. I think Boot Camp even tells you beforehand what partition to put Windows on.

5. Win7 installs. Yes, it's going to be missing drivers and things. No sweat.

6. Put the Snow Leopard disc in and run the setup. This is the driver pack/Boot Camp utilities. These are Vista-era drivers, they may not all install. No problem.

7. Get the *latest* Boot Camp drivers from Apple. Here: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979. Install this.

8. Relax, you're done.

Note: Apple's version of what I just told you:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3986

I have a question:

Can you skip Step 6 as noted above and directly go to Step 7, since Step 7 contains the latest BootCamp drivers?

And interestingly, on that link you provided for Step 7, BootCamp Drivers 3.2, one of the system requirements says BootCamp 3.1. Does that mean BootCamp 3.2 will NOT install, without 3.1 in place?? I am about to dual boot Win 7 on my MBP as well, so I am watching this thread with interest.
 
I have a question:

Can you skip Step 6 as noted above and directly go to Step 7, since Step 7 contains the latest BootCamp drivers?

And interestingly, on that link you provided for Step 7, BootCamp Drivers 3.2, one of the system requirements says BootCamp 3.1. Does that mean BootCamp 3.2 will NOT install, without 3.1 in place?? I am about to dual boot Win 7 on my MBP as well, so I am watching this thread with interest.

You need to use the Snow Leopard disk to install the Boot Camp drivers. That link is just an update to those drivers.
 
You need to use the Snow Leopard disk to install the Boot Camp drivers. That link is just an update to those drivers.

Mmmm, I am thinking about a FRESH install of drivers rather than an updating of drivers.;) I even remember there are utilities especially written for cleaning old drivers--(Driver Sweeper?), before installing a new driver! :rolleyes:

Since you say so, I'll install the BootCamp drivers from the Snow Lepoard install disk first, and then install the latest BootCamp Driver Update (3.2). :D
 
Don't worry so much about it. They are well written drivers. They're not video card drivers that require ripping out every last trace evidence.
 
Support software? Hours of downloading? Huh?

Here's the steps you do:

1. Install OS X Snow Leopard from the disc that came with the Mac.
- DO NOT think ahead on this. Don't partition or plan for Windows. Simply install OS X.

2. After OS X is installed, get to the desktop, and if Software Update doesn't run on it's own, run it. Apply everything (it will update to 10.6.6 and whatever else). Reboot, 10.6.6 woohoo.

3. Applications > Utilities > Boot Camp Assistant. Make the Windows partition as big as you think it needs to be. Follow the prompts. Do what it says to do.

4. At some point you'll reboot with the Win7 DVD. Win7's installer should start. Follow the prompts. I think Boot Camp even tells you beforehand what partition to put Windows on.

5. Win7 installs. Yes, it's going to be missing drivers and things. No sweat.

6. Put the Snow Leopard disc in and run the setup. This is the driver pack/Boot Camp utilities. These are Vista-era drivers, they may not all install. No problem.

7. Get the *latest* Boot Camp drivers from Apple. Here: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979. Install this.

8. Relax, you're done.

Note: Apple's version of what I just told you:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3986

Well, it is not happening ! That's what I'm telling you! I can't believe this is only because I partitioned the drive using a third party software?

OS X 10.6.6 is already in there! Do I really need to reinstall and start all over? I took one whole day to download all updates with my slow connections.

If it is really because I messed with the drive, then it is stupid.
 
What do you mean by this exactly? Did you format and do a fresh install or did you try and repair the disk?

I just repaired the disk and made it only one extended journaled partition or whatever that's called.
 
I have a question:

Can you skip Step 6 as noted above and directly go to Step 7, since Step 7 contains the latest BootCamp drivers?
No. The reason is that the updates are incremental. You need "Boot Camp 3.0" (from the SL disc) to install 3.1, since 3.0 has the bulk of the stuff and 3.1 is just relevant updates.
 
Well, it is not happening ! That's what I'm telling you! I can't believe this is only because I partitioned the drive using a third party software?
Well to be fair, Apple never intended for you to do it any other way. To me, Boot Camp was always painfully obvious. Maybe it wasn't obvious enough.

If you messed with third party utils on the drive, Boot Camp may be confused. I'm having trouble figuring out where you're currently stuck, since you mention Windows Support stuff and whatever else you downloaded and I have no idea what that is. The steps I gave are fairly concrete, and deviating from them means you should utterly flatten the drive (which I said earlier) and do the entire thing from an unpartitioned, blank drive. As Apple intended.
 
Well to be fair, Apple never intended for you to do it any other way. To me, Boot Camp was always painfully obvious. Maybe it wasn't obvious enough.

If you messed with third party utils on the drive, Boot Camp may be confused. I'm having trouble figuring out where you're currently stuck, since you mention Windows Support stuff and whatever else you downloaded and I have no idea what that is. The steps I gave are fairly concrete, and deviating from them means you should utterly flatten the drive (which I said earlier) and do the entire thing from an unpartitioned, blank drive. As Apple intended.

This is where I'm stuck:

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4407

It won't do any of the above shown options.

Yeah, I can start all over but I think it is stupid. Apple intending it one way shouldn't mean no other way is possible. Things should be more flexible. Also, I did restore the disk to its original state using the OS X disk. So, what's boot camp is confused about?
 
I'm not getting it. Installing Win 7 with Boot Camp was simple the very first time I did it.

The Boot Camp drivers under Windows is just like a regular software installer. Download it from within Windows if you have Internet access. The link was given above. (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979)
 
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I'm not getting it. Installing Win 7 with Boot Camp was simple the very first time I did it.

The Boot Camp drivers under Windows is just like a regular software installer. Download it from within Windows if you have Internet access. The link was given above. (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979)

Well, from the way you guys are talking, it sure looks simple. And I'm sure it wouldn't have caused me any trouble had I decided not to reinvent the wheel and followed instead the most common way to install windows(Boot camp).

I'll download that update and see what happens, although I'm 99% sure I already have it.


Thanks
 
This is where I'm stuck:

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4407

It won't do any of the above shown options.

Yeah, I can start all over but I think it is stupid. Apple intending it one way shouldn't mean no other way is possible. Things should be more flexible. Also, I did restore the disk to its original state using the OS X disk. So, what's boot camp is confused about?

Those options are for a Macbook Air. Are you working on a Macbook Air? Air's don't have optical drives so you would get that option to download the drivers onto a USB key.
 
Took me 20 min to read all this, by the time i was done, i swear i could have had windows 7 installed and almost updated.
 
Those options are for a Macbook Air. Are you working on a Macbook Air? Air's don't have optical drives so you would get that option to download the drivers onto a USB key.

Like I said I have a macbook, not an air. Same page appears for macbook. And like I said, if I choose to download to USB storage, it won't work.
 
Took me 20 min to read all this, by the time i was done, i swear i could have had windows 7 installed and almost updated.

Are you picking on me? Haven't you faced weird stupid computer problems that should have not appeared in the first place? These problems are there and I can show you:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=303233

http://forums.macnn.com/104/alterna.../362928/boot-camp-assistant-cannot-used-need/

I'm now seriously considering virtualbox!
 
VM'ing Windows is really the best way, unless you absolutely have to have native performance.
 
Like I said I have a macbook, not an air. Same page appears for macbook. And like I said, if I choose to download to USB storage, it won't work.
Again, the drivers you want are in the link that's been posted a few times already:
http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979

Download the file in Windows 7 (if WiFi drivers aren't installed yet, use Ethernet) or in Snow Leopard. If you download it in Snow Leopard, just download it like a regular file, then copy it to a USB stick or drive. Boot into Windows 7 (in Snow Leopard preferences panel in the dock, use boot camp in the bottom row), then run the update off the USB stick or drive.

I'm not really understanding how you are getting stuck on downloading. It seems you are just over thinking this whole thing. Download file in link above, copy to USB drive. Easy.

You're still getting the boot camp error when you try to install? I thought you wrote above that you did install. Anyways, if the partition table is messed up now you may just have to swallow your pride and do it the right way as it was suggested above. Learn from mistakes, etc.
 
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Are you picking on me? Haven't you faced weird stupid computer problems that should have not appeared in the first place? These problems are there and I can show you:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=303233

http://forums.macnn.com/104/alterna.../362928/boot-camp-assistant-cannot-used-need/

I'm now seriously considering virtualbox!

Picking on you no, trying to help but just don't know how you are having so many problems when i have installed boot camp a million times and never have had this problem at all.

My wifes 2.5 year old 13" WHITE macbook runs windows just fine.

Do you know how to do print screens ?

If you can i can help you step for step, if not then you could pm me and we could do a remote session and i can help you via ichat computer shared screen.
 
Again, the drivers you want are in the link that's been posted a few times already:
http://support.apple.com/kb/DL979

Download the file in Windows 7 (if WiFi drivers aren't installed yet, use Ethernet) or in Snow Leopard. If you download it in Snow Leopard, just download it like a regular file, then copy it to a USB stick or drive. Boot into Windows 7 (in Snow Leopard preferences panel in the dock, use boot camp in the bottom row), then run the update off the USB stick or drive
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here! I downloaded it. It is with me. What difference will it make? I'm telling you that when I open boot camp it reaches the step where you can choose to save the windows support software into an external disk or an optical drive. Neither works, and even If I choose that I have already downloaded them, it will go to the next step where you partition your drive to accomodate windows. You start partitioning and after few moments it will give you an error message.
I'm not really understanding how you are getting stuck on downloading. It seems you are just over thinking this whole thing. Download file in link above, copy to USB drive. Easy.

You're still getting the boot camp error when you try to install? I thought you wrote above that you did install. Anyways, if the partition table is messed up now you may just have to swallow your pride and do it the right way as it was suggested above. Learn from mistakes, etc.

did install what? Windows 7? I never said that! If 7 is installed, what would the problem be then? Partition table messed up? You and like I said before, originally boot camp will immediatlly give its stupid must update message, however, after I booted into the OS X cd and restored the drive to how it was, it advanced to the next step.
 
Picking on you no, trying to help but just don't know how you are having so many problems when i have installed boot camp a million times and never have had this problem at all.

My wifes 2.5 year old 13" WHITE macbook runs windows just fine.

Do you know how to do print screens ?

If you can i can help you step for step, if not then you could pm me and we could do a remote session and i can help you via ichat computer shared screen.

Told you something is wrong with the machine. I find it really awkward not to be able to install and use boot camp succesfully unless you are in the very original state of the machine. If I have only updated everything and then used boot camp, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have had a problem.

Following the correct steps won't help now. I have to somehow fix what is wrong, although I'm not sure what it is. Propably what is best is just to swallow my pride and flatten the disk and start all over like the previous poster said. Thanks buddy and everybody else.
 
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So if i'm understanding this correctly when you go the macbook instead of using the bootcamp utility in OSX you used some 3rd party app to try to get windows installed.

Only suggestion I really can make is booting off the Snow Leopard dvd, use disk utilities inside the install and wipe whatever is on the partition. Create a Mac OS Extended Journaled partition of the whole drive. Now continue the install from there. Once done update OSX to 10.6.6.

Now you should be able to run bootcamp and partition the drive. I used 100Gigs for my Win7 Partition and you should be able to use x64 on that mac since its basically the same internals as a 13.3 Macbook Pro just plastic instead of aluminum. Once the boot camp part is done it should say you can start the windows install. Once you boot into the windows setup its like doing so on a normal PC.

After you are done installing windows put back in the Snow Leopard dvd and install boot camp for drivers. Once that finishes you should be able to get the boot camp update from apple for any driver updates for your certain model.

Boot camp also installs and app in the control panel which allows you to pick your startup disk (same UI as startup disk in OSX) so you can switch back and forth or you can just hold the option key during boot and pick the drive you want to boot off of.

I understand that this is pretty much a near repeat of everything everyone else pretty much what was already listed here but that is how its supposed to be done. There probably is many other ways to do it but that is the easiest way to do it per the way Apple wants you to do so.

If anything go into an apple store and talk to a person there. they are very helpful and even tho you bought the Mac via ebay and someone replaced the HD with a non apple certified drive. Oh you do have to set an appointment if the apple store you live near is a busy one if not its maybe a max 15 minute wait (Was for me at a very busy mall during Xmas time)

If any of this information doesn't help i'm sorry if it does then your welcome.
 
So if i'm understanding this correctly when you go the macbook instead of using the bootcamp utility in OSX you used some 3rd party app to try to get windows installed.

I just used Gparted magic to create a windows partition, and booted from the windows dvd thinking that it will just work. That's all. I also started boot camp before first updating. Yes I can wipe everything, but it will awesome to know how to do it without doing so.

Thanks to you.
 
Serious question, why are you trying to find a way to do it "without doing so", when just you stated this was a fresh-out-of-the-box macbook, and instead of spending a week or more without it working properly, you could have spent 2 hours wiping out whatever happened to OSX when you tried it the hard way, and starting over?
 
Chances are you are gonna have to wipe everything and start from scratch to get it to work. The boot camp app in OSX does things to the partition that Gparted won't do that have to do with booting on a mac.

OSX 10.6.6 > boot camp partition > win install > install boot camp app on windows

Thats pretty much the order. Gotta get the main os working before any secondary os.

Download this and toss it on a flash drive so you dont have to redownload it if it does mess up again and have to start from scratch for how ever many times you keep trying > http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1349
 
I'm confused, you still haven't reformated and reinstalled the machine?

Well anyways, boot to the OS disc, and before you do the install i would advise to go to the toolbar on the top and goto "utilities" and then "disk utilities". Select your main drive (not the sublisted partition), hit the erase tab, and reformat the entire drive as a single partition in Mac OS Extended Journaled (default is not case sensitive). Rename the drive to Macintosh HD (by default it's Untitled) and hit erase. Don't bother going to the partition tab except just to check that you have one partition. Close that window when it's finished and proceed with installation.

edit: that step you were stuck on seems to be a new addition in 10.6.6
http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/01/17/drops.xp.vista.references.requires.download/
i don't know why it was giving you issues, hopefully it doesn't in the future.

In fact, to avoid that issue I wouldn't bother doing updates in mac after your reinstall since it seems this new feature is giving you issues and i've NEVER had problems with 10.6.5 or prior versions. After you install windows you can do all of the updates anyways, at that point it wont matter.

oh and also:
Took me 20 min to read all this, by the time i was done, i swear i could have had windows 7 installed and almost updated.
not productive


edit2: it seems you're not the only one, the author recommends the same thing, dont upgrade to 10.6.6 until you install windows
http://groups.google.com/group/macenterprise/browse_thread/thread/1789b1d9bda9368c?pli=1
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2710630&start=0&tstart=0
 
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