DTS:X Finally Ready To Take On Dolby Atmos

Megalith

Megalith

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I feel like I’ve already got my hands full with five, six, or seven channels of audio and LFE, but now you’ve got the option of height channels and speakers that fire upward for a more enveloping experience.

The idea is to create a bubble of sound around by using dedicated height channels -- in essence, speakers aimed straight up at the ceiling, not horizontally toward the listener. Both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos soundtracks are available on standard Blu-ray discs, as well as the newer 4K versions. Rather than requiring cinemas and home users to install a set number of channels, object-based soundtracks are more akin to a globe as opposed to the "five points on a map" of a traditional 5.1 mix. Object-based soundtracks consist of a rendering in 3D space made of up to 128 channels, which are designed to adapt to whatever speakers are in a cinema in real time.
 
Pretty sure the big deal with Atmos and DTS:X is the object soundtracks. I'm no expert, but it seems like this system allows you to add speakers overtime without having to get a new disk (assuming the disk supports ATMOS/DTS:X) and I suspect it adjusts based on where exactly your speakers are located (which I assume can be determined by a test run by your receiver). I've never heard it in a home theater setting, so I don't know if it's an upgrade over the DD/DTS formats on Blu Ray or not, but the flexibility is interesting.
 
Atmos is very very specific about placemenet of speakers for decent to optimal effect. Supposedly DTS:X is more "room-friendly" in that you can set levels for less then optimal placements or rooms. Currently I'm waiting for Marantz to release the update for DTS:X to the NR1606 before I consider looking into trying to figure out how to do it in my living room, as we have high angular ceiling that don't work well for bounce, or installing in-ceiling speakers either. I might have considered philips light speakers at one point, but they have been discontinued.
 
Extremely small niche market.
Most people don't even bother with anything more than the cheap built in speakers on their TV's.
Once you have 4-5 decent speakers in a surround system most of the rest wouldn't hear a difference with anything better.
 
Yeah, DTS:X is far more customizable. Even if you want to stick with a traditional 5.1 there's a lot more that DTS:X can do with your speaker placement.

I'm hoping to have the Onkyo TX-RZ900 in my home theater within the next month or so.
 
I think I will stick with my 5.1 channel setup. I have not even bothered with going to 7.1 channels because I have no clue where I could even fit the extra 2 speakers. It sounds like this Dolby Atmos stuff would also be above my pay grade to do right.
 
Will this work with my beige Creative Labs multimedia speakers, I just have to replace the batteries in them since they're running a little low.
 
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Yeah, the ceiling speakers are just a selling point to audio plebs. The main thing about these new standards (DTS:X and Atmos) is the audio object rendering - like how video games can do 3D audio. Now movies can do that with a few sound source objects. With more speakers (ceiling) it can get pretty wild. But I like to explain like movies getting video game audio - there is still a basic surround soundtrack, but, again, you now get a few 3D sound objects.

This will make those sound objects much more precise in their placement because your receiver knows your speaker configuration and renders the audio properly to give the desired location effect.

Again, basically, movies get video game audio.
 
umeng2002 said:
Again, basically, movies get video game audio.
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If the studios actually take advantage of it.

I have a 6.1 setup and I enjoy it for games, but I've always found surround pretty gimmicky for music and movies. Better to spend your money on great stereo speakers than a bunch of cheap surrounds.
 
There some misinformation in this thread. Neither DTS-X nor Dolby Atmos calculate speaker angles for home theater, though the tech is apparently there for cinema it is both too costly and too processor intensive for mainstream home use. At this time I'm only aware of one home system that actually maps out speaker placement in 3D space and therefore matches the commercial implementation of Atmos or DTS-X and that is Trinnov. (Which is a standalone based processing box with a starting price of about $15k).

To do this an expensive mic is needed that has multiple capsules. If your AutoEQ mic only has one capsule (All major brands Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc) then you don't truly have 3D mapping in your home theater.

The studios mix it in 3D and the great thing is that actually helps those with the traditional 7.1 and 5.1 systems in that the audio is now easier and more efficient to mix. However, we are a step behind what the marketing speak is throwing out there in home theater.

We have at most (outside of Trinnov) 7.1.4. for Atmos and perhaps in the next year or two 9.1.6. For home theater, the current gen receivers can calculate distance but not 3D mapping. So while the disk is supposedly recorded in 3D mapping, (to accommodate future expanded channels) the AVR is using preset typical standardized mapped locations for all speakers. So for practical purposes as your AVR is spitting it out we are basically the seeing the 7 speaker bed in standardized positions and now the four ceiling speakers in standardized positions as well. The AVR wouldn't have a clue to accommodate space deltas in your room (say one speaker moved out of recommended position because of a door, window, or HVAC obstacle) so we were sold short on the consumer side. We basically get 7.1.4 channels and if you have your speakers in the standardized recommended placement it works. Not true 3D positional audio with true speaker mapping (yet nor for the immediately foreseeable future)

Yes anyone here (with two working ears) could tell the difference - I've done lots of a/b testing back and forth with friends in my 7.1.4 system. Everyone says it make a positive difference. Whether it's worth the pretty significant uptick in cost is up to the individual. An AVR with 7.1.4 is going to be a $1k more than a viable 7.1 AVR and then you still have to buy and mount the four ceiling speakers. (The ceiling aim speakers (intended to bounce back sound) are a pathetic compromise IMO)

Total cost might be $2k- $4K over what a 7.1 system would cost.

Here is my 7.1.4 system for reference
Archaea's multi-purpose Home Theater room - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

attachment.php
 
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The weird thing is how many discs even really have a good 7.1 mix? Now they have more sound options for height which really only a very few movies will use. I had a 5.1 system and it was good, I moved to a 7.1 and it was awesome, but only rarely ever used properly. If you have a 5.1 setup you are pretty much set. 7.1 is good but IMHO it is not used nearly enough to make a huge difference. The new Atmos/DTS-X will be great also I am sure, but how many movies will you be buying that ACTUALLY use it fully? I would say that number would be rather small. As more people move to Netflix and streaming, does anyone believe they will be getting more atmospheric mixes when the majority of the viewers won't hear them. Don't get me wrong there will be "show" discs that have incredible sound but for some reason I doubt this will be a common thing.
 
LurkerLito said:
The weird thing is how many discs even really have a good 7.1 mix?
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The better question...exactly how many (or rather few) movies are even good enough to warrant even worrying about how good 7.1 versus 5.1 versus Dolby Atmos versus DTX:X sound mixing???...Then after you count the fingers on probably only one hand, the monetary layout needed to go up and up in audio capability.
 
Man, I'm glad I don't care about stuff like this, sounds really inconvenient and expensive.
 
LurkerLito said:
The weird thing is how many discs even really have a good 7.1 mix? Now they have more sound options for height which really only a very few movies will use. I had a 5.1 system and it was good, I moved to a 7.1 and it was awesome, but only rarely ever used properly. If you have a 5.1 setup you are pretty much set. 7.1 is good but IMHO it is not used nearly enough to make a huge difference. The new Atmos/DTS-X will be great also I am sure, but how many movies will you be buying that ACTUALLY use it fully? I would say that number would be rather small. As more people move to Netflix and streaming, does anyone believe they will be getting more atmospheric mixes when the majority of the viewers won't hear them. Don't get me wrong there will be "show" discs that have incredible sound but for some reason I doubt this will be a common thing.
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yup, I love my 7.1 surround but few movies use it right. Gaurdians of the galaxy did a good job at using my setup to its full but that's about the only one that stands out for me. Where it really shines are games, I was blown away by star wars battlefront on my PS4. Between the 100" screen and the superb sound the game was great for showing off my new home heater, just wish it was a good game lol.
 
I mean honestly it is cool...but I'm pretty much set with 5.1 in my particular room. Come up with a technology that uses my existing speaker setup to give me superior sound and I'm on board. However I don't want more speakers. The ones I have are expensive and bit enough as it is.

I do need a new amp though.
 
nutzo said:
Extremely small niche market.
Most people don't even bother with anything more than the cheap built in speakers on their TV's.
Once you have 4-5 decent speakers in a surround system most of the rest wouldn't hear a difference with anything better.
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Not true.

The average Joe goes with a sound bar, and virtually anyone looking at receivers now cares about Atmos DTS-X compatibility. So among users that go with receivers and wired speakers, its quite mainstream. It doesn't even really require more speakers, just setting two up high so that you don't just hear a tie fighter scream by you from front to back, but can hear things above and below you via the new processing.

Once we have reliable wireless technology, then speakerbars will be a tougher sell, as running wiring is really the main deterrent still.
 
Archaea said:
Yes anyone here (with two working ears) could tell the difference - I've done lots of a/b testing back and forth with friends in my 7.1.4 system. Everyone says it make a positive difference. Whether it's worth the pretty significant uptick in cost is up to the individual. An AVR with 7.1.4 is going to be a $1k more than a viable 7.1 AVR and then you have to buy and mount the four ceiling speakers. (The ceiling aim speakers (intended to bounce back sound) are a pathetic compromise IMO)
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I've heard a 5.1.4 system and in my opinion is way better than most 7.1 systems for comparable costs.

As for up-ward firing speakers vs. in ceiling, I'm mostly mixed. I feel this is too largely determined by the space you are in. Most people are going to benefit from the up-ward firing speakers due to them not having the right room for in-ceiling mounts.

Skripka said:
Just what no one wanted...ANOTHER Dolby codec
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This isn't Dolby.
 
amdgamer said:
I think I will stick with my 5.1 channel setup. I have not even bothered with going to 7.1 channels because I have no clue where I could even fit the extra 2 speakers. It sounds like this Dolby Atmos stuff would also be above my pay grade to do right.
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Not at all. 5.1 atmos speakers basically just have you mounting your two side speakers on the ceiling. Easy-peasy, and inexpensive.
 
I finally got to hear Atmos, and it's very easy to tell a difference between straight 7.1 vs. 7.1.4.

My next upgrade is Atmos. Looking at .4, but will take .2 for now.

I think that most people with home theaters or even an AVR will know and want Atmos/DTS-X when upgrading.
 
I recently got some new (and fantastic!) stereo speakers (Magnepan 1.7i). I moved my old speakers (some Polks) and a (used/much cheaper) Magnepan C3 center to match.

After a few months, I decided to just leave the stereo speakers up. Partially because they sounded a ton better than the others, and partially because 5.1 was just too much clutter in the room.
Directional audio was cool, but not worth the clutter.

I probably wouldn't ever go as far as an atmos setup.
 
Skripka said:
Same difference at this point. The million+1th AVR codec that may or may not be supported by any particular hardware or software or both.
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No it's not, and any new codec that comes out that is massively improved over the previous should be welcomed.

It's like bitching about a new processors being released.
 
Skripka said:
Same difference at this point. The million+1th AVR codec that may or may not be supported by any particular hardware or software or both.
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Not sure what you mean. Atmos is almost certainly going to be supported, since it's already in theaters. Well that and there's really just DD, DTS, the lossless versions of those codecs and now ATMOS/DTS:X. If you want to add Dolby Pro Logic, OK, but that's only 6 Codecs over the last 25 or 30 years and Pro Logic is only used when someone couldn't be bothered to support DD/DTS.
 
mostly what the commercial theaters do is create a giant subwoofer you sit in. The curve they use is a spiral that starts at the center of the viewing point. That is usually the row behind the handicapped seats. They draw a line from there to the right front exit sign. Then they draw a line to the right rear exit sign. The spiral curves from the center point toward the right front exit then back to the rear exit. The angle is set based on the seats, to left rear, then left front, in an increasing spiral. The point is because of the time it takes sound to travel they measure the curve. say they want a bullet to look like it coming off the screen toward the right front of the audience toward the left back. They send a burst of sound out of the speakers based on the time it takes sound to travel so far along the curve, from from the front right speakers then the rear right then the rear left so when the sound bounces off things it feels like it traveled through the room from the front right to the rear left. The subwoffer in a home setup tries to reproduce the effect of the stage quality subswoffers that are built into the speaker cabinets. With more watts of power they can move more air, a sub has to push more sound at the right amplitude and distance wave to wave then push the amplitude higher and lower so that it loses less effect being bounced around the room. With a closed theater setup I would just place the subwoffers under a hollow floor to vibrate the seats and use the three mid ranger one tweeter in the far corners of the room so that when the length of the spiral is not oblong but as close to symmetrical curve as you can get you get the speakers pushing sound around the round like the old ball you see in the manuals. Bouncing it off the ceiling means vibrating the coils more on the bottom than the top so that more energy is pushed above the furniture. Think of it as measuring tape drawn like a conch shell and the closer to a natural curve the easier the math is to figure out how much energy is needed to vibrate the speakers at the right time to get the sound to match the image on the screen. Remember the sound and images are not muxed by stored seperatly on the tracks so that alternate langues can be played with the same images. Storing multiple images tracks with each audio would be simpler to just sell each language on a separate disk.
 
Well you can blame Dolby pro-logic for this fine mess. The rear surrounds on the original pro logic were monaural rear ambient sound only. You were supposed to use Di-pole (Dispersion pole), where the speakers are opposed in phase, to make it harder to locate the source. They were also to sit just above the ears. The problem of pro logic was cross talk, added noise, shift, limited frequency and dynamic range. (Prologic II improved on this and even gave you stereo rear surrounds, but it was still lacking compared to DD & DTS)

DTS and DD then turned these in to direct sources, which kind of eliminated the atmosphere effect.

Yamaha was the first to try to tackle the loss of the atmospheric effect dispersion speakers by creating "presence" speakers. These sat high, wide, and up front. (And later with the RX-Z11, positioned at the rear as well.) This is the predecessor of DTS:X and DD:Atmosphere. However Yamaha's approach was a software emulation only, and they were not discrete channels. It wasn't perfect, but it did help open up the stage considerably and make the room feel much bigger than it was.

Yes I'm one of those suckers with a 7.2.4 (I call it "11.2" but whatever) setup with B&W's.
 
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Archaea said:
There some misinformation in this thread. Neither DTS-Xnor Dolby Atmos calculate speaker angles for home theater, though the tech is apparently there for cinema it is both too costly and too processor intensive for mainstream home use. At this time I'm only aware of one home system that actually maps out speaker placement in 3D space and therefore matches the commercial implementation of Atmos or DTS-X and that is Trinnov. (Which is a standalone based processing box with a starting price of about $15k).

To do this an expensive mic is needed that has multiple capsules. If your autoeq mic only has capsule (All major brands denon, marantz, pioneer, Yamaha, onkyo, etc) then you don't truly have 3D mapping in your home theater.
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A good analyzer with a 3 calibrated mics and trigger inputs can be used to calibrate a theater using various test tones and a waterfall graph. (As you know high pitched sounds are more narrowly focused and when you use wide-band white noise as a tone signal, the information might get lost in reflections)

As to auto-eq's....I maybe crazy, but in full auto calibration mode Yamaha has you move the mic to 3 different positions on a special triangle marked 1, 2, 3 with little circles to mount the mic for calibration. It isn't perfect, but it is a lot better than a number of systems.
 
"With current surround formats DTS and Dolby, it's tough to say which one is objectively better. Some audiophiles, such as our own Audiophiliac, prefer DTS because of its typically higher bit rates, while others like Dolby."

If this audiophile is comparing Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, then he is wrong to think that they are different. They are lossless so they both sound 100% the same as the uncompressed PCM version and thus as each other. Bitrate doesn't matter. As for lossy formats, Dolby is more efficient than DTS so Dolby Digital at 640Kbps could sound better than DTS at 1536Kbps. It is like comparing a high quality H.265 encode at 20Mbps and a low quality H.264 at 40Mbps. The writer for this article / CNET just sounds way too uninformed in some audio matters.
 
Aggressor Prime said:
"With current surround formats DTS and Dolby, it's tough to say which one is objectively better. Some audiophiles, such as our own Audiophiliac, prefer DTS because of its typically higher bit rates, while others like Dolby."

If this audiophile is comparing Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, then he is wrong to think that they are different. They are lossless so they both sound 100% the same as the uncompressed PCM version and thus as each other. Bitrate doesn't matter. As for lossy formats, Dolby is more efficient than DTS so Dolby Digital at 640Kbps could sound better than DTS at 1536Kbps. It is like comparing a high quality H.265 encode at 20Mbps and a low quality H.264 at 40Mbps. The writer for this article / CNET just sounds way too uninformed in some audio matters.
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Eh. DTS almost always sounded better than Dolby Digital/AC3.
 
windianrecords said:
Definitely agree, and I also enjoy the upconversion to DTS vs DD on my Yamaha Aventage and Pioneer Elite receivers, as well.
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I went from an Aventage to a In-Control Series Denon (for Atmos) and found the Yamaha had fantastic software conversion I was taking for granted. Denon still sounds great and needs much less juice to drive my Deftech bp/c8080's.

On the up firing atmos speakers - For my situation/setup they work decently, not great. My living room has 14 ft ceilings, which is the maximum recommended and I didn't want to pay or put the work into running the wire and installing in-walls. I can certainly tell a difference with the 5.2.2 vs. 5.2.
 
Trimlock said:
I can't tell the difference enough to tell you which one rules the roost. I just know that Dolby is usually the preferred.
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Interesting. Everyone I knew in the late 90s through the mid aughts preferred DTS. I mean literally nobody chose DD if they had a choice. Granted this is a very small sample of a couple of dozen people, but I'm surprised that my sample would have nobody that went with the masses.
 
nilepez said:
Interesting. Everyone I knew in the late 90s through the mid aughts preferred DTS. I mean literally nobody chose DD if they had a choice. Granted this is a very small sample of a couple of dozen people, but I'm surprised that my sample would have nobody that went with the masses.
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Well I guess mine is also anecdotal, it's by no mean the definitive.
 
So where does one find DTS and Dolby Atmos for PC ? How does one confirm that Windows 10 Edge is working to take advantage of the higher performance in audio and video Microsoft claims it has? Links or videos that actually help?
 
JoseJones said:
So where does one find DTS and Dolby Atmos for PC ? How does one confirm that Windows 10 Edge is working to take advantage of the higher performance in audio and video Microsoft claims it has? Links or videos that actually help?
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If youre running the audio out to a receiver via HDMI, I would assume you could confirm by looking at your receiver's info. For example, my receiver will say DTS-HD when Im playing a video with DTSHD in Jriver Media Center...
 
windianrecords said:
If youre running the audio out to a receiver via HDMI, I would assume you could confirm by looking at your receiver's info. For example, my receiver will say DTS-HD when Im playing a video with DTSHD in Jriver Media Center...
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I have no receiver ... I'm talking about PC:

Dolby Atmos Support Comes to Windows 10 & Xbox One
http://wccftech.com/dolby-atmos-support-windows-10-xbox-one/?utm_source=wccftech&utm_medium=related

Windows 10 to Support 8K Resolution
http://wccftech.com/windows-10-support-8k-resolution/

Dolby Audio in Microsoft Edge
https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev...for-high-performance-audio-in-microsoft-edge/
 
Well, Atmos is a bit-stream, so you'd either need an atmos-capable internal or external DAC to decode that stream; I dont know of any motherboards or pci-e cards that can do that, but they may exist. Most of these high bit rate multichannel audio codecs like DTSHD, ATMOS, etc, are fed out of PC via HDMI- they are not supported over spdif or toslink.
 
JoseJones said:
I have no receiver ... I'm talking about PC:

Dolby Atmos Support Comes to Windows 10 & Xbox One
http://wccftech.com/dolby-atmos-support-windows-10-xbox-one/?utm_source=wccftech&utm_medium=related

Windows 10 to Support 8K Resolution
http://wccftech.com/windows-10-support-8k-resolution/

Dolby Audio in Microsoft Edge
https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev...for-high-performance-audio-in-microsoft-edge/
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Odds are anyone using those features are still outputting to a receiver. You'll need at least seven speakers plus a sub to take advantage of the minimum Atmos/DTS:x specs. Technically a 7.1 sound card can power those speakers if Windows is processing the Atmos signal and passing that through the sound card directly to the speakers. I haven't used a sound card in over a decade so I'm not sure exactly how it's handled without a receiver.

If someone wants to take advantage of Atmos they are probably better off buying a cheap receiver than an expensive sound card.
 
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