DRM has ruined Resident Evil Village on PC

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
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Resident Evil 8 has performance issues on PC and up until recently nobody knew why. Now we know why and it's because of DRM in the game. Specifically Denuvo since a crack team had it removed and now the game is fantastically better. A reminder that pirates have a better experience than those who legitimately pay for the games. Now that the game has been cracked, Capcom will have no choice but to remove the DRM from the game.

 
Specifically Denuvo since a crack team had it removed and now the game is fantastically better. A reminder that pirates have a better experience than those who legitimately pay
This isn't what happened. Capcom's own inhouse DRM wasn't playing nice in combination with Denuvo. Bypassing either DRM makes the issue stop. In this case the modder bypassed Capcom's DRM, not Denuvo.

Now that the game has been cracked, Capcom will have no choice but to remove the DRM from the game.
Lol
 
This isn't what happened. Capcom's own inhouse DRM wasn't playing nice in combination with Denuvo. Bypassing either DRM makes the issue stop. In this case the modder bypassed Capcom's DRM, not Denuvo.


Lol
While I won't disagree with you on this particular game, this very forum has more than one thread about denuvo causing a game to have issues.
 
DRM is cancer. Most of these schemes hook into your OS in ways they really have no right too. If Microsoft was in anyway serious about security almost all of these DRM schemes wouldn't work.

If these companies really really want to make things secure. Just make your game Saas... patch it weekly and require server authentication to run. I get it people don't want to always be connected bla bla... but if I was personally given the choice, connect to a server or let our software bypass all your OS level security to run underneath. My choice would be clear. I'll take the constant server authentication and not being able to play for the 1 hour a year my internet is down over the just trust the shady company founded by ex Black hat assholes who guaranteed the publisher the first 2 weeks of sales uncracked.
 
DRM is cancer. Most of these schemes hook into your OS in ways they really have no right too. If Microsoft was in anyway serious about security almost all of these DRM schemes wouldn't work.

If these companies really really want to make things secure. Just make your game Saas... patch it weekly and require server authentication to run. I get it people don't want to always be connected bla bla... but if I was personally given the choice, connect to a server or let our software bypass all your OS level security to run underneath. My choice would be clear. I'll take the constant server authentication and not being able to play for the 1 hour a year my internet is down over the just trust the shady company founded by ex Black hat assholes who guaranteed the publisher the first 2 weeks of sales uncracked.
People would bitch and moan about that even more.
 
People would bitch and moan about that even more.
There are a few games already doing it. As consumers I would say you have three choices really. We can continue to buy games with OS level DRM schemes hooked into out systems and we can just say ok I trust that your games DRM isn't doing anything it shouldn't... I mean we have no way at all to confirm that and the OS is handing it basically the keys to your system. We could also say no thanks and never buy a game with DRM... buy from GOG and no where else I guess. Or we can accept that I guess publishers have a right to secure their product from the pirates, in which case the only reliable option for them is some form of Saas that requires constant server authentication. (and I say only... cause frankly even the scummy DRM schemes fail) It might be annoying to some... but its the only form of DRM I can think of that doesn't rely on unsecure system accesses, while also providing almost 100% publisher production is online authentication (and even this can be broken of course if the developer isn't giving people reasons to stay up to date)

I would suggest for developers and publishers the best way to go would be with constant game development preferably with no added cost. I know that describes games like No mans sky which of course are at least partly online games. The same formula could be employed with most AAA titles.... I know publishers just love those sweet expansion pack monies. However perhaps the best way forward for the industry is to require online at all times... and then roll out a good amount of free content. People might be just fine with Saas schemes for DRM if it meant a year of constant quality expansion level content rolled into the product. Instead of selling stupid items in shops and the like... perhaps they just drop that type of stuff here and their in updates that scramble authentication keys. Cracked versions would end up frozen in old states. Sure they would give up some of those expansion sales... but they would ensure base game sales. I know for my part I would love to see the idea of the gold editions and the like with the fist few expansions and the like gone. How many of us skip new games and wait a year for the gold/deluxe package. Developers are costing themselves money imo.
 
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There are a few games already doing it. As consumers I would say you have three choices really. We can continue to buy games with OS level DRM schemes hooked into out systems and we can just say ok I trust that your games DRM isn't doing anything it shouldn't... I mean we have no way at all to confirm that and the OS is handing it basically the keys to your system. We could also say no thanks and never buy a game with DRM... buy from GOG and no where else I guess. Or we can accept that I guess publishers have a right to secure their product from the pirates, in which case the only reliable option for them is some form of Saas that requires constant server authentication. (and I say only... cause frankly even the scummy DRM schemes fail) It might be annoying to some... but its the only form of DRM I can think of that doesn't rely on unsecure system accesses, while also providing almost 100% publisher production is online authentication (and even this can be broken of course if the developer isn't giving people reasons to stay up to date)

I would suggest for developers and publishers the best way to go would be with constant game development preferably with no added cost. I know that describes games like No mans sky which of course are at least partly online games. The same formula could be employed with most AAA titles.... I know publishers just love those sweet expansion pack monies. However perhaps the best way forward for the industry is to require online at all times... and then roll out a good amount of free content. People might be just fine with Saas schemes for DRM if it meant a year of constant quality expansion level content rolled into the product. Instead of selling stupid items in shops and the like... perhaps they just drop that type of stuff here and their in updates that scramble authentication keys. Cracked versions would end up frozen in old states.
Yea publishers are not going to do that. Especially not for free.
 
The funny thing is that DRM is not even confirmed to actually help sales of games.

So basically companies spend millions on technology that only hurts legitimate customers. Brilliant.
Wrong on both counts.
 
While I won't disagree with you on this particular game, this very forum has more than one thread about denuvo causing a game to have issues.
Lots of empirical evidence that shows Denuvo hurts gaming performance. The combination of Capcom's DRM and Denuvo that probably hurt the performance a lot but Denuvo in general hurts performance.


 
If these companies really really want to make things secure. Just make your game Saas... patch it weekly and require server authentication to run. I get it people don't want to always be connected bla bla... but if I was personally given the choice, connect to a server or let our software bypass all your OS level security to run underneath. My choice would be clear. I'll take the constant server authentication and not being able to play for the 1 hour a year my internet is down over the just trust the shady company founded by ex Black hat assholes who guaranteed the publisher the first 2 weeks of sales uncracked.
This only works if the game is multiplayer based. If it's single player game like Resident Evil Village then once a hacker cracks it out then updates don't matter. You can use a DNS as a method to bypass this as well. Also, phoning home is cancer as well and doesn't promote that you actually bought something, as once the server goes down you don't have access to your game.

There are a few games already doing it.
Whatever those games are I hate them.
As consumers I would say you have three choices really. We can continue to buy games with OS level DRM schemes hooked into out systems and we can just say ok I trust that your games DRM isn't doing anything it shouldn't... I mean we have no way at all to confirm that and the OS is handing it basically the keys to your system. We could also say no thanks and never buy a game with DRM... buy from GOG and no where else I guess. Or we can accept that I guess publishers have a right to secure their product from the pirates, in which case the only reliable option for them is some form of Saas that requires constant server authentication.
Stop using DRM and lower game prices. Stop cutting your games up into pieces and selling them as DLC. No anti piracy method works and any effort done to prevent piracy will only make piracy easier for those looking to do it. Xbox One was going to do this phoning home crap and the console is dead. Before anyone says Xbox One isn't dead, here's a video animation proving my point.

 
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This is always the same vicious cycle. DRM always screws things up for legitimate buyers of the product. And who is affected by it is almost always proportional to how much that person can spend on PC hardware. If you can't afford to keep your PC upgraded to at least the recommended specs, then you are almost always the one who is screwed. I am sure most specs are all made before what choice of DRM is ever even considered and if not definitely before and DRM performance was actually tested. So when you read the press release of the minimum required PC specs to run the game, that is almost always the specs they tested the game on a DRM-Free developer build plus some imaginary performance number the DRM company they might use estimates their solution adds on top. Then the devs slap on the DRM at the last second, only test to make sure it "runs", then push it out as gold because by then it's crunch time and they don't have the time to really test the performance, then users with the minimum spec hardware all get shafted by performance issues not in the developer builds due to DRM eating up the precious processing power. Those users then go complaining only to be greeted by higher end PC users going "it runs fine on my PC." The affected PC users complain and speculate it's the DRM, the publisher/DRM company denies it, a crack group strips out / disables a portion of the DRM that generally strongly suggests the DRM is what causes it, the publisher doesn't say a thing, the DRM company tries to deflect on the issues by saying things like improperly implemented etc..., basically stalling for time, and if buyers are lucky the DRM gets removed, company announces it's removal along with "performance enhancements" (lol), then suddenly the performance improves for the affected people, while the unaffected go back and say nothing has changed much. Repeat again with the next DRM infected game.

This particular case will soon be plagued with the added, denuvo complaining it wasn't their DRM but capcom's added drm that was the problem, and capcom going it wasn't their DRM but denuvo that is the real problem. IMHO I would bet Capcom inadvertently used Denuvo to protect it's DRM by using game function calls that were infected by Denuvo causing a large spike of multiple DRM calls in spots during the game.
 
Whale_Ahoy.jpg


Companies just keep teaching their customers to either crack or outright pirate their games.
 
My understanding is there is a mod which fixes the stuttering for the Steam version.

The cracked version has missing animations and things like parry, which the DRM was seemingly tied to. Hence the stutters.

Capcom should remove their DRM at the least and release a new build with just Denuvo.
 
Lots of empirical evidence that shows Denuvo hurts gaming performance. The combination of Capcom's DRM and Denuvo that probably hurt the performance a lot but Denuvo in general hurts performance.




Some dude's Youtube videos aren't "empirical evidence" of anything - let alone "Denuvo in general hurting performance".
 
Stuff like Denuvo has to be using at least some resources, it can't be doing literally nothing. That said, if your machine is fast enough it may not be noticeable, but that doesn't mean it has no impact.
 
While I won't disagree with you on this particular game, this very forum has more than one thread about denuvo causing a game to have issues.

Depends on the game, and how the developer implemented it. But there's been a lot of FUD, misinformation and clickbait spin surrounding Denuvo the entire time. From Denuvo's inception, pirates have tried various misinformation tactics to undermine it- "Denuvo kills your SSD!" "Denuvo kills your FPS!" "Denuvo kills your CPU!"

An ideal world would have no DRM or Denuvo. But as long as it exists, and people want to have a problem with it, it's a weak argument to resort to FUD and spin. The strongest arguments are ones based on objective and verifiable facts rather than some faith, gamed youtube videos where the creator of the video has a financial incentive to create the conclusion that will get the most amount of traffic.

Consider that a video about "Denuvo is a toolbox, and may or may not affect performance depending on how the developer implements it" would not get shit in terms of youtube traffic, because it's not the conclusion that raging gamerkids and pirates want to hear.
 
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Some dude's Youtube videos aren't "empirical evidence" of anything - let alone "Denuvo in general hurting performance".

Unfortunately, he's really the only one putting in the work to try and get these comparisons. It's still only one data point and neither empirical evidence nor solid proof, but it does at the very least lend credence to the argument that in some cases Denuvo can cause performance losses. Interestingly, a lot of the early examples showed no real differences, it's only become more apparent with more demanding (or worse ported) titles that implement it.
 
Implementation matters a lot; if the Denuvo and Capcom DRM checks are done at startup or level load, then the impact is a lot less apparent. Here, it seems the DRM was being called in the core gameplay loop (when killing zombies ... in a zombie killing game), which means it's getting called all the time. That adds up and gets obvious real quick.

Yes, DRM is bad in general, but here the fault lies strictly with Capcom and how they are making calls to the DRM and not the DRM itself.
 
Unfortunately, he's really the only one putting in the work to try and get these comparisons. It's still only one data point and neither empirical evidence nor solid proof, but it does at the very least lend credence to the argument that in some cases Denuvo can cause performance losses. Interestingly, a lot of the early examples showed no real differences, it's only become more apparent with more demanding (or worse ported) titles that implement it.
Agree with all of that. My only beef is that nuance gets lost in our misinformation age, and the tendency to not care about facts or truth as long as the "conclusion" or headline or youtube video supports the outcome we want.

For many previous Denuvo games with long reddit threads swearing it "Kills FPS!", but then a Denuvo-free executable released and the FPS turned out to be exactly the same, you never ever saw a retraction or video or "okay we were wrong about that one"; just on to the next misinformation campaign. It's a valid tactic to try to move the needle into a particular direction - we see it in politics and everything else - but you're still building an argument on top of sand when it's not based on verifiable fact or you're having to bend the truth, and that can come back and bite you in the ass.
 
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I have literally never once experienced one of these claimed DRM performance issues in the games it was claimed to be a problem in. And I'm in NO WAY a supporter of DRM, I'm just saying it has NEVER been a problem for me.
 
I have literally never once experienced one of these claimed DRM performance issues in the games it was claimed to be a problem in. And I'm in NO WAY a supporter of DRM, I'm just saying it has NEVER been a problem for me.
So you magically avoided every single stutter issue in this game?
 
Agree with all of that. My only beef is that nuance gets lost in our misinformation age, and the tendency to not care about facts or truth as long as the "conclusion" or headline or youtube video supports the outcome we want.

For many previous Denuvo games with long reddit threads swearing it "Kills FPS!", but then a Denuvo-free executable released and the FPS turned out to be exactly the same, you never ever saw a retraction or video or "okay we were wrong about that one"; just on to the next misinformation campaign. It's a valid tactic to try to move the needle into a particular direction - we see it in politics and everything else - but you're still building an argument on top of sand when it's not based on verifiable fact or you're having to bend the truth, and that can come back and bite you in the ass.
Performance doesn't begin and end with FPS. Denuvo and most DRM is trigger activated. So it does not affect AVG fps in most games but there can be exceptions to that rule. However it does affect frametimes. When poorly implemented it can as much as double or triple the highest frametimes. That's the instances when the tacked on code is executed. Claiming that adding additional code to games does not affect performance at all is like claiming free energy exists. And how does this manifest in practice? Of course stuttering, which is exactly what is going on in RE8. Of course you can claim that it is implemented shoddily, but that is no excuse, if they are content with implementing it badly they are hurting customers, and only customers.
Claiming that DRM does not have negative effects is like claiming water isn't wet at this point.
 
Seems kind of crazy do check the DRM during action scenes.

Like check it when the game loads, or when a cut scene starts, etc. Not when you parry (got to be the worst timing).

What was Capcom thinking?
It is common practice to attach DRM to certain ingame events. if checks were only done during loading it would be much easier to circumvent. The trick with denuvo is that it is tacked on to game code, becoming indistinguishable from it without the source. That's why it takes a long time to crack.

The problem here is that they managed to attach DRM checks to triggers that are executed multiple times in very short periods of time. And I bet proper beta testing was only done with DRM free copies so they never caught the issue.
 
It is common practice to attach DRM to certain ingame events. if checks were only done during loading it would be much easier to circumvent. The trick with denuvo is that it is tacked on to game code, becoming indistinguishable from it without the source. That's why it takes a long time to crack.

The problem here is that they managed to attach DRM checks to triggers that are executed multiple times in very short periods of time. And I bet proper beta testing was only done with DRM free copies so they never caught the issue.
As sad as that sounds, it's quite likely the truth, where the testers throw up their arms and be like "we're not testing a shitty experience!"
 
Performance doesn't begin and end with FPS. Denuvo and most DRM is trigger activated. So it does not affect AVG fps in most games but there can be exceptions to that rule. However it does affect frametimes. When poorly implemented it can as much as double or triple the highest frametimes. That's the instances when the tacked on code is executed. Claiming that adding additional code to games does not affect performance at all is like claiming free energy exists. And how does this manifest in practice? Of course stuttering, which is exactly what is going on in RE8. Of course you can claim that it is implemented shoddily, but that is no excuse, if they are content with implementing it badly they are hurting customers, and only customers.
Claiming that DRM does not have negative effects is like claiming water isn't wet at this point.

Just to be clear this is Capcom's DRM not Denuvo. A lot of companies like Ubisoft and Capcom use multiple forms of anti tamper technology. Capcom's in house solution clearly is very problematic. RE Village uses both Capcom's in house and Denuvo.

Also keep in mind there are multiple forms of Denuvo that come every few months. They're apparently getting harder to crack. I assume there are more triggers or whatever the technical term is. It could very well be the case that early Denuvo versions didn't cause any notable performance drop, but other versions or even future versions will show a notable performance loss.

Certainly getting to the point where the bug testing/implementation time might just not be worth it.
 
Not a surprise and still frustrating ; all this "anti-tamper" nonsense doesn't even get swiftly and officially removed in the months after release either - it usually takes a long time after the game has been cracked, if ever, showing that the companies are again relying on the fallacious "every incidence of piracy is a lost sale, we must lock things up as tightly as possible for as long as possible" garbage. Yes, not unlike StarForce of old, today's DRMs (and anti-cheat for that matter, looking at you EAC! ) have gotten increasingly invasive burrowing deep into the system and sometimes causing these issues - easy to see once cracks or removals are present but hard to tell for sure, prior.

Of course, this is only the intermediary step and despite some suggesting that it would be better I'm actually more concerned about progression - a world where the user and their PC is given the minimal amount of access to the game in service of extreme publisher control. This could happen a number of ways - games that are nearly entirely streamed, not really played on your hardware but depending to a significant degree on content sent to you, to Windows 11 and the TPM2.0 requirement to essentially turn your PC into a console that can be tracked and identified through remote attestation, to other implementations - all are invasive and unnessary ; they CANNOT be allowed to gain a foothold or else as we've seen with anything else exploitative that corporate aspects of gaming normalize, it will simply become the norm and users who object will have to go without lots of content they'd otherwise find interesting while being played off a niche objectors because it only takes a relatively small amount of people to make the ROI valid - see everything from microtransactions that aren't micro, to lootboxes, to DRM itself and beyond. We have a chance to stop it but only if there is enough blowback at any given attempt to move the needle that it becomes untenable.
 
Some dude's Youtube videos aren't "empirical evidence" of anything - let alone "Denuvo in general hurting performance".
So what constitutes as evidence for you? What narrow criteria meets your standards?
Performance doesn't begin and end with FPS. Denuvo and most DRM is trigger activated. So it does not affect AVG fps in most games but there can be exceptions to that rule. However it does affect frametimes. When poorly implemented it can as much as double or triple the highest frametimes. That's the instances when the tacked on code is executed. Claiming that adding additional code to games does not affect performance at all is like claiming free energy exists. And how does this manifest in practice? Of course stuttering, which is exactly what is going on in RE8. Of course you can claim that it is implemented shoddily, but that is no excuse, if they are content with implementing it badly they are hurting customers, and only customers.
Claiming that DRM does not have negative effects is like claiming water isn't wet at this point.
Denuvo has three major effects in performance. Firstly is average FPS which is usually not that big. Some games it can be but in most it's only losing about a few frames per second at best. Secondly is minimum frames which Denuvo has more of an effect. In a lot of cases you can see minimums drop down to unplayable levels. Finally there's the loading time which Denuvo creates a massive executable. Without Denuvo the executable is something like 15 megabytes but with it you get 300 megabytes. This can often double or triple the loading times of games. You don't need a cracked game to see this as often updates later do remove Denuvo. Sometimes games on Origin and Epic get a version without Denuvo, while the Steam version continues to use Denuvo.

What this overall means is that games on PC have slightly higher system requirements than they should, which causes people with older and weaker PC's to not be able to play these games. Especially during a time period where PC parts are at extortion level prices. Also, Overlord isn't the only YouTuber who did some benchmarks with and without Denuvo.

 
I like Capcom's games and even bought RE Village. Having said that, I wish I didn't, knowing I gave money to a company that more or less hates me and is actively working against my interests as a gamer (and to a lesser degree, as a human). Thus is the song and dance of giving a major publisher money. Rarely do I feel the sting of supporting indie developers (the ones that aren't early access scams, of course).
 
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