drive Adaptor silliness

[honegod]

I am running windows 10 on an ITX gamer board.
I have four 14tb spinners plugged into the sata ports, and two M.2 filling those slots on the board.
I want MOAR storage.
I got a sabrent USB 3.0 hdd dock, and it plugs into a Usb socket on the back panel, giving me another drive, but occupying a type A socket.
the board has both plugs for front panel wired sockets, a twin 3.0 5gbs, and a single 3.1 gen2 10gps.

with the correct cables I could add 42tb to my storage, that would make me happy.

so I want a plug for the motherboard 3.0 socket with two, foot long, wires that plug into the sata data sockets on 2 hdds.
and a similar connector for the 3.1 socket, two drives would be nice, but just 1 would be good.

(two drives on the 3.1 would get me 112tb system total, VERY nice ! )

I have no clue how to search for these specific cables.
any guidance ?

 

[Nobu]

Quick search doesn't turn up a dual drive adapter, but you can get a "usb 3.0 header port adapter" or some such (will have two type-A female ports), and two "internal usb sata adapter" or the like.

 

[Nobu]

Oh, for the 3.1 (3.2?) socket, you'll want a type-F to 3.0 header adapter.

 

[kydsid]

You don't have a pci slot? An SAS card will give you the ability to add many more drives, SAS or SATA than the route you are going?

 

[Nobu]

You don't have a pci slot? An SAS card will give you the ability to add many more drives, SAS or SATA than the route you are going?

ITX, so he's probably using the only slot for something, networking or graphics is my guess. Edit: Or maybe blocked, depending on the case layout.

 

[Grebuloner]

Why not use a USB hub? You're unlikely to saturate a USB 3 port with multiple spinners running at the same time.

 

[honegod]

type-F

the exact sort of data I lack in narrowing my searches, Thank you .

You don't have a pci slot?

the 1050ti is using it, itx.

something like this

with sata data plugs

and this with another pair.

pics from moddiy, parts in stock.

either gets the toaster 3.0 plug into the front of the board.
the 3.0 twinhead cable would let me buy another toaster for a second drive.
but that would mean a second brick on the strip.
I neglected to deep dive into toaster usb tech, the plug setup annoys me.
add slices to the toaster and the same usb port is used for all the drives.

 

[Nobu]

the exact sort of data I lack in narrowing my searches, Thank you .

Np. Took me forever to figure that out myself when I first encountered it, because it was newer than new, most boards didn't even have one yet.

 

[OFaceSIG]

You need to build a NAS. It will free you. I only have a single 2TB nvme on my rig and it's all I need. Everything else goes on the NAS.

 

[honegod]

build a NAS

build a computer to run harddrives to network to my computer so I can use them like they are connected to my computer ?
I don't really want to get into a new operating system to rig up a place to put memes
that's what cores are for.
I just copied 150gb to a 14tb in the toaster.
peaks of 200, valleys of 50.
a tb would take an hourish.
good enough.

 

[Nobu]

https://www.startech.com/en-us/pr/combination-4-bay-sata-drive-dock-and-toaster

Toaster?

 

[kydsid]

You need to build a NAS. It will free you. I only have a single 2TB nvme on my rig and it's all I need. Everything else goes on the NAS.

Evidently, OPs main rig is smaller and less powerful than my NAS/Server, but already manages to have 4tb more storage and he needs more


But seriously OP if you want to data horde and use what you have as a primary PC, and you don't want to transfer over LAN, then why USB? I'd be looking at a motherboard swap that could get me an SAS card and a backplane to go all in in you place. Good luck bro.

 

[auntjemima]

build a computer to run harddrives to network to my computer so I can use them like they are connected to my computer ?
I don't really want to get into a new operating system to rig up a place to put memes
that's what cores are for.
I just copied 150gb to a 14tb in the toaster.
peaks of 200, valleys of 50.
a tb would take an hourish.
good enough.

NAS is the way to go. I can copy at gigabit speeds ( a bit over 100MBps) to my NAS.

You think it's a PC to handle the drives, and you aren't really "wrong", but there are specific enclosures designed specifically for what you want and will do the job without a bunch of random cable adapters.

BUT, in your situation with the amount of drives you have, a NAS enclosure is very expensive (especially anything over 4 bays), so it might just make more sense to keep throwing drives into that case.

Be safe.

 

[honegod]

a NAS enclosure is very expensive (especially anything over 4 bays), so it might just make more sense to keep throwing drives into that case.

I looked at using a NAS enclosure as my primary system, but I didn't find one that I liked the design layout of MB and drives.
I also looked at using a 4U server rack case, giving lots of drive bays, and an ATX motherboard, but the horizontal desk space used up is excessive.

right before the 14tb drives were available I planned a micro ATX threadripper system with a case that was shaped right and would let me stack a pair of 4 bay Icy Dock style drive holders cleanly on top using the board 8 SATA sockets, with PCI slots and lanes enough for everybody.

the gen 1 threadripper 12 core is still in its unopened retail display box.
because the I3 ITX system continued to do everything I wanted just by swapping 14tb 3.5s for the 4tb 2.5 (laptop spinners)

all was happy, until the H270 board died.
and the first 14tb hdd reported "low drive space"

the replacement Z490 board has a USB 3.2 front panel socket in addition to the 3.0 socket that the H270 had.

a current screenshot of the ITX system with a Mini atx case footprint on my desk.

E drive is the one that is getting full, its overflow is now ( MOST inconveniently ) stored on drive O
drive F is the toaster, a 14tb with the files on D copied as backup.

swapping a 20tb spinner for E would let me reintegrate that file set, but would STILL be nearing the full mark, requiring an overflow.

so a NAS would let me create virtual drives (raid kind of thing) with plenty of space, with a bit of redundancy for mechanical drive failures. Good.
at the expense of doubling the mechanical and software failure points for the system as a whole.( 2 computers instead of 1) Bad.

 

[honegod]

You don't have a pci slot? An SAS card will give you the ability to add many more drives, ?

I looked at a riser / splitter cable to run both a sas card and the 1050ti from the PCI x16 slot, but the motherboard does not support bifurcation.

huh !!! THIS motherboard might !
starts looking for that rabbit hole.

 

[honegod]

it involves adding a new card to the system, to plug the drives into, but so does the USB setup.

that might work.

but it involves PCI lanes, which Intel is short on.
USB seems able to bypass that restriction. at the cost of maximum transfer speed.
so for M.2 PCI drives USB sucks, but for spinners PCI is massive overkill.

not seeing the obvious utility in my application.

 

[philb2]

build a computer to run harddrives to network to my computer so I can use them like they are connected to my computer ?
I don't really want to get into a new operating system to rig up a place to put memes
that's what cores are for.
I just copied 150gb to a 14tb in the toaster.
peaks of 200, valleys of 50.
a tb would take an hourish.
good enough.

Not to mention the energy usage for a NAS box. From everything I've read, most people find that transfers to/from a NAS are very slow.

How about using a system case that holds one or two extra drives. That's like a "NAS in a box."

 

[honegod]

How about using a system case that holds one or two extra drives. That's like a "NAS in a box."

that is rather the plan. but I find no complete unit at all close to what I want.
I am looking for stuff that does a thing I want, that I can adapt to other stuff that does other stuff I want, to get a system that does what I want, like I want.

I have the capability to solder up my own adapter cables, and fabricate mounting hardware to hold all the pieces together, but a ready made cable could simplify the operation a lot.

the 14tb spinner on the USB 3.0 transfers exactly as fast as the same drives on PCI sata . I checked.

 

[honegod]

a 'thing' I want.
spinners are sensitive to sharp impact impulses.
so the mounts for a spinner must reduce the impact waveforms transferred to the drive from the enclosure.
this 'thing' is a low priority, and absent, in most drive array enclosures.

the 2.5 spinners use metric mounting screws that fit readily available rubber shock mounts used in drones.
the 3.5 spinners use freedom screws that nobody much uses for tiny shock mounts, so the only ones I found are EXPENSIVE.
nobody whatsoever makes drive array cases that use this style mounts to secure the drives.

 

[auntjemima]

Not to mention the energy usage for a NAS box. From everything I've read, most people find that transfers to/from a NAS are very slow.

How about using a system case that holds one or two extra drives. That's like a "NAS in a box."

I have just a clunky old WD My Cloud drive and it's been great. Fast transfers, easy to manage.

What you are describing in your second paragraph is literally a NAS. Small enclosure, runs hard drives. Both of you seem to think a NAS is entire computer is some sort of large case.

 

[honegod]

this is the appropriate forum for this,
the m3 screw will crossthread into the 3.5s 6/32 mount holes, and a M3 tap will cut a shallow M3 thread into the peaks of the 6/32 threads in the harddrive.
allowing the cheap drone rubber mounts to screw into a 3.5 drive.
but not real sturdy.
sort of like a high friction pin mount, perfect for axial thrust into the drive, weak for thrust trying to pull the mount out of the drive, fine for sideways thrust.

so just using the 4 holes on the bottom of the drive is inadequate, being weak against flipping the enclosure upside down.
using the side holes on the drive for 4 more 'pinned' rubber mounts would fix that weakness.

a mirrored pair of angle aluminium chunks running along either side of the drive would give a solid mounting points to attach the rubber isolated drive to the enclosure.
the enclosure would keep the "pins" firmly engaged in the drive no matter how the assembly is rotated in space.
this setup allows ample space between drives in the array for cooling airflow.
but with 8 harddrives this thing will not fit inside a computer case.
maybe in a 5u rackmount server.

edit, yes, I know "a solid mounting points" flows bad, but it describes the setup.

 

[honegod]

a picture of the current system as I type this.

the 4 x 3.5 stack has the rubber mounts spacing the drives 8mm apart and is about 150mm tall.
it reaches up to the motherboard in the case.
another 4 would reach the top of the case, adding no width.
a drive case using the angle mounts would block the side where I have the fan now.
a single 120 noctua ducted to the rear of the array sucking air from the wire end (towards us in the picture) would work.

the wad of wires could be managed, but I am not bothering atm.
the two empty motherboard USB sockets are in JUST the right place for this idea, running the other 4 drives.

 

[honegod]

the full stack of 8 drives would get in the way of the videocard fan, instead of providing handy support, so It goes on the other side of the case where there is no conflict.
yes. I need to do the GPU fan duct. but gpu temps are fine as is.

 

[auntjemima]

a picture of the current system as I type this.

View attachment 500449

the 4 x 3.5 stack has the rubber mounts spacing the drives 8mm apart and is about 150mm tall.
it reaches up to the motherboard in the case.
another 4 would reach the top of the case, adding no width.
a drive case using the angle mounts would block the side where I have the fan now.
a single 120 noctua ducted to the rear of the array sucking air from the wire end (towards us in the picture) would work.

the wad of wires could be managed, but I am not bothering atm.
the two empty motherboard USB sockets are in JUST the right place for this idea, running the other 4 drives.

That is insane.

 

[honegod]

That is insane.

I like the symmetry of the setup, the drives are roughly the same size as the PSU, and as the cpu cooler and videocard.
the 8 drive thing could loom in the background.

I put the toaster where the mouse is in the picture. the video fan blows right on the circuit side of the vertical 3.5

 

[honegod]

is this the forum to do a build on the 8 rubber mount drive rack ?
it would be seperate from the case, so is maybe not a case mod.

 

[auntjemima]

is this the forum to do a build on the 8 rubber mount drive rack ?
it would be seperate from the case, so is maybe not a case mod.

I would do whatever you want within your own thread. Have fun!

 

[Royce.Arnold]

Have you considered a SATA port multiplier? Something like this.

SATA bandwidth would be shared across the drives depending on what's being accessed at the same time. So, it might not work depending on what you are doing.

Also, link is not a recommendation. Just an example of the tech.

 

[honegod]

I got one of these, but my motherboard uses a unique M.2 mounting scheme that blocks using it.

 

[honegod]

SATA bandwidth would be shared across the drives

sort of like running several drives into a usb hub plugged into 1 usb port.
that is why I am so giggly about the 2 drives per motherboard socket setup, no sharing.

 

[auntjemima]

I got one of these, but my motherboard uses a unique M.2 mounting scheme that blocks using it.View attachment 500719

Looks like an M2 2280. Probably need a smaller one.

 

[honegod]

Looks like an M2 2280. Probably need a smaller one.

no, the available M.2 mount puts the socket end of the card directly under the CPU heatsink, so close that the sata wires cannot bend enough.
leaving only a couple sockets at the other end exposed enough to plug into.
going shorter, like to a 2240 would just eliminate the usable socket end.

 

[auntjemima]

no, the available M.2 mount puts the socket end of the card directly under the CPU heatsink, so close that the sata wires cannot bend enough.
leaving only a couple sockets at the other end exposed enough to plug into.
going shorter, like to a 2240 would just eliminate the usable socket end.

https://hardforum.com/data/attachment-files/2022/08/707100_hg725.jpg

Could you mount that heatsink the other orientation? Pretty sure I could use my noctua in whatever direction I wanted.

 

[honegod]

mount that heatsink the other orientation

never occurred to me.
the case has a 120mm fan mount directly behind the heatsink that I am focused on using for a ducted exhaust fan to the heatsink.
the duct to a 90° rotated HS would be complex and a nightmare for airflow. evil.
but it WOULD absolutely free up all the M.2 sata card ports, Good.

too bad the heatpipes are not flexy, with each pipe having its own independent array of fins, so I could sculpt the HS shape I want.

the heatpipes ARE bendable, but not much, and both ends of each pipe are solidly located by the spreader block at the bottom and the fin array at the top. so the bit that can actually be bent is limited to what is in between those two.

the previous board CPU heatsink design was laid out so that I could bend all the pipes at once and tilt the fin block so the duct would work better, the Noctua design geometry does not allow this at all.

 

[Royce.Arnold]

I got one of these, but my motherboard uses a unique M.2 mounting scheme that blocks using it.

Hard to tell from the pictures, but would these work with that M.2.

How much vertical space to you have between the top of the M.2 SATA and your heatsink? These are very short and have a super flat cable.

I've used both when building in tight setups.

 

[Grebuloner]

no, the available M.2 mount puts the socket end of the card directly under the CPU heatsink, so close that the sata wires cannot bend enough.
leaving only a couple sockets at the other end exposed enough to plug into.
going shorter, like to a 2240 would just eliminate the usable socket end.
View attachment 500724

You need one of these:
m.2 extension cable
There are other lengths available if that isn't long enough to clear what needs to be cleared.

 

[honegod]

the top of the M.2 SATA and your heatsink?

not a great picture, but that is the setup.
VERY little clearance.
three sockets might clear enough for plugs but no way the plugs in the barcode area will clear the heatpipes.

 

[honegod]

You need one of these:

yes !

but I am personally allergic to excess plugs in a signal path.
for example, when I got a new electric clothes dryer for the house, instead of installing a socket in the wall for a cord from the machine to plug into,
I ran a wire from the breaker directly to the dryer where the plug cord screws in.
when the wife sold the dryer I missed out on the buyer figuring out how to unplug his purchase for transport.

so, I love the utility these extensions offer, JUST what I need for happy building.
but, I HATE adding another plug in the circuit.
more points of failure.

 

[Royce.Arnold]

VERY little clearance.

Indeed. It does not even look like the M.2 card would fit with nothing plugged in.

more points of failure.

What you are trying to do via USB is going to add more points of failure regardless (i.e. USB <-> SATA converter will be required for each drive).

Given the concerns with points of failure... I think your best bet would be to replace the heatsink with something that would allow you to use the M.2 SATA card.

You appear to be at the point where your hardware capacity / capability and your concerns are conflicting. To push this hardware further, your probably going to have to compromise your concerns to some degree.

Personally, I would avoid using USB as a long term live data storage conduit (my own personal bias / concern).

 

[honegod]

replace the heatsink

definitely under consideration.
the context of its selection was my computer died requiring a new MB and CPU, generational changes to the mount required a new cooler.
the U14 was because I needed something RIGHT NOW that I could rely on being adequate for permanent use.
its actual configuration is suboptimal in several respects.

not even look like the M.2 card would fit

yes, I would likely have to grind on some of the sata plug guards to gain clearance.

USB <-> SATA converter will be required for each drive

I am wondering about that, the USB to 2.5 drive adapters seem to be simple plugs, and the main difference with the 3.5 plug is it needs 12v power.
so what is the "USB <-> SATA converter" that I have been assuming must be required ?

I have thought of getting a 2.5 adapter, and cutting off the power half of the drive plug to clear a PSU sata power plug.