DRAM Manufacturers Slapped with Lawsuit over Supply Collusion, Price Gouging

Hey, everybody here LOVES the free market, right? Well here you go. Pay through the nose. They rip you off because they can.
 
nightfly said:
Hey, everybody here LOVES the free market, right? Well here you go. Pay through the nose. They rip you off because they can.
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Free market isn't inherently bad, but like capitalism it can be a ticking time bomb if not cared for and nurtured. Remember, companies work for the people not for themselves, and the moment their incentives don't line up with socialites then an intervention is needed. Remember gas prices and how much a barrel of oil was worth? Remember when it plummeted to less than $20 per barrel of oil and people were crying that those working in that industry need sympathy? Fuck'em is what I say. Cause like memory, gasoline is a commodity. Oil companies were making record breaking profits that looked unrealistic and yet similar to the memory industry. There will always be a demand for these products.

Regulation is always the key to keeping companies within reason. I noticed gas prices are creeping up again...
 
Tyns said:
This is a fishing expedition to allow discovery on private corporate communications in the desperate hope that something was said and these ambulance chasers will probably face a stiff counter suit.
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Keep telling yourself that. Ever heard of Occam's razor?
 
About fucking time this happened. Fine Samsung to oblivion. Greedy fuckers.
 
Piercing the corporate veil and criminally prosecuting a few dozen execs...with jail time...in addition to crippling fines, is the only solution.

Affect the stock price and the board will have to take action. Toss a few posers in prison for several years and the next batch may take it a bit more seriously.

And hold the board individually accountable for their fiduciary responsibilities.
 
c3k said:
Piercing the corporate veil and criminally prosecuting a few dozen execs...with jail time...in addition to crippling fines, is the only solution.

Affect the stock price and the board will have to take action. Toss a few posers in prison for several years and the next batch may take it a bit more seriously.

And hold the board individually accountable for their fiduciary responsibilities.
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You are in a dream world Neo.
 
Shame the memory bits I was rolling out of used VHS tape didn't work.
Was all i could do to measure a hysteresis. This tech is beyond me...
 
Skarth said:
I bought a 16GB DDR4 (2x8gb) ram kit for $62 in March 2016.

That same ram kit (Or any 16GB kit) is over $150 now.
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This has to be hurting server sales too.
I've delayed buying new servers and have instead have been upgrading several of our older servers.
There are plenty of cheap (used) CPU's and ram available for 3-5 year old servers.

I can buy a 16GB stick of Registered DDR-3 ram for $75. A stick of DDR4 on a new server would run me over 3 times that much.
(That's a huge savings when you are buying 128GB of ram.)

I can also get a 10 core, 2.8 Ghz CPU for $260, while a similar speed CPU in a new server is around $1,300.

Doubling the ram & CPU speed makes the server good for a few more years and well worth the costs.
 
Tyns, how is $MU doing for you?

If what the lawsuit alleges is true, that there was no "real" change in technologies, then yes, there is no reason why DRAM prices should have increased at the rate which they did.
In ANY manufacturing business, assuming constant prices on supplies, the longer you make the same thing the cheaper the process gets (and no matter what you conjure up, this holds in the IC industry as well).

Tyns said:
You’re telling me a clandestine conspiracy involving 3-5 global companies to fix prices in a $50B+ industry that affects almost every facet of modern human life is simpler than supply and demand? Ok, guy, you keep telling yourself that.
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I suggest you do some research, since yes, this "clandestine conspiracy" happened before, involving the same companies with admission of guilt:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_price_fixing
 
Tyns said:
Exact opposite; server sales are booming, but it’s cutting into server manufacturers’ margins (so they make less money). Read HP’s (both) ER transcripts as they discuss the memory situation each quarter for over the past year in depth. If a company like HPE and HPQ doesn’t think there is price fixing when it could cost them billions of dollars, why should you?
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Didn't say Server sales where poor, just that they are likely selling less servers that they other wise would due to the higher prices.
That's basic economics. If servers cost significantly more due to the higher ram prices, they WILL sell less of them. Only question is how many less.
 
Tyns said:
Jane, you ignorant slut. Just because some ambulance chasers file a lawsuit doesn’t mean they’ll win. Read my earlier post in this thread - it’s a fishing expedition and their basis for the lawsuit is already debunked. There is no evidence to support their claims.
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So what now Bob, do we wait a year or two to see if I'm right? Next time this is mentioned in the news I'll be sure to remind you. Meanwhile, I'm keeping dramclaims bookmarked.

https://dramclaims.com/
 
Let's also keep in mind that for the past month or so there's been plenty of stock available. If, according to manufacturer's excuses, the prices are rising because of such outstanding demand that they can't produce enough products to satisfy it, how come Amazon has kept not running out of DRAM for the past month+? Shouldn't that, by market logic, force prices down? Unless, you know, price fixing is what's actually going on.
 
euskalzabe said:
Let's also keep in mind that for the past month or so there's been plenty of stock available. If, according to manufacturer's excuses, the prices are rising because of such outstanding demand that they can't produce enough products to satisfy it, how come Amazon has kept not running out of DRAM for the past month+? Shouldn't that, by market logic, force prices down? Unless, you know, price fixing is what's actually going on.
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This argument applies to the retailers: if stock is sitting on shelves, shouldn't Amazon/Newegg/etc. lower prices? Why haven't they?
 
IdiotInCharge said:
This argument applies to the retailers: if stock is sitting on shelves, shouldn't Amazon/Newegg/etc. lower prices? Why haven't they?
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Well I'm not all up and up on supply, demand, ect ect, but the excuses ive heard are, "x retailer has paid x price, and if they paid x price, they want x price to recouperate, x cost In purchasing it at x price originaly from supplier..." or something to that effect....
 
Tyns said:
You’re operating under the false premise that demand is elastic. If AWS or Azure needs more server capacity, they’re not going to skimp out because DRAM costs more than they’d like. Demand has exploded in many areas and continues to grow,cloud and data center being huge sources of this growth.
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I'm sure the higher prices are not going to affect Amazon or Microsoft's purchases.
Probably won't affect most large companies either, however smaller companies tend to be more price sensitive.
An extra thousand or so on a new server will cause companies some to delay purchases and make due with what they already have.

I gave my example, because that's at least 4 servers that will not be replaced this year or next year because I upgraded the existing servers instead.
128GB to 256GB of DDR4 memory just raises the cost of the new servers too much.
Maybe in a couple years, after the prices have come down, and I'll reconsider.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Which is why you mention it when it has very little to do with how retail stock is handled :ROFLMAO:
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I'm not even sure what you mean, I mean, I'm a complete idiot financially..... ive just heard other people explain it like that..... ie...tech industry reviewers... "newegg paid 120 dollars for 16gb... they need 130 or 140 to make income... if they sale for 110... they lose money..." that's just all I understand nad makes sense... don't get me wrong, I completely think this is completely stupid overall, but I do understand if they bought a product at x dollars, they need to make x dollars...they cant sell at a loss...that's how you got out of business..... but again, I'm a complete idiot when it comes to finances....ask my credit and stupid purchase decisions :D
 
RealBeast said:
More like $5 per purchaser, while the attorneys get $100 million.
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Definitely more than $5. I got over $100 back last time this happened.

With class actions the lawyers do all the work for you. You're welcome to opt out and sue the DRAM makers yourself.

Class action suits keep companies honest in these sort of situations where the unlawful behavior is broad but isn't targeted enough to trigger a lawsuit from a particular customer.
 
Slowing or stopping production until the product reaches a desired price point is not a crime for most products last I checked.
Colluding with competitors to maintain a price floor is illegal.

Evidence of one is not proof of the other. So let's wait and see what they find. And I do mean wait, these things tend to take at least half a decade.
 
Someone please explain to me what price fixing vs margins are?

Why can’t Samsung, Hynix, etc sell their product for what the market is willing to pay for it? They aren’t a monopoly or a governenment run utility. If they charge too much then competitors will come in to undercut them.

I really don’t see the beef.

How do you as a consumer determine what margin is okay or acceptable for a product you don’t control? Why don’t we go after Walmart for producing T-shirt’s in China for $.50 and selling them for $5? 10x markup not too much? What about American Eagle with their 50x markup on the same shirt?
 
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Archaea said:
Someone please explain to me what price fixing vs margins are?

Why can’t Samsung, Hynix, etc sell their product for what the market is willing to pay for it? They aren’t a monopoly or a governenment run utility. If they charge too much then competitors will come in a undercut them.

I really don’t see the beef.

How do you as a consumer determine what margin is okay or acceptable for a product you don’t control? Why don’t we go after Walmart for producing T-shirt’s in China for $.50 and selling them for $5? 10x markup not too much? What about American Eagle with their 50x markup on the same shirt?
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I think the concern is they set the bar...and then changed it....

remember 16gb of ddr4 was like 120-150 awhile back, now its like 200+ with excuses to the effect of "were not able to keep up" but now they can keep up at 200+

and mind you, that's likely cause people just arnt willing to pay more then what the original and NORM is...
 
nightfly said:
Hey, everybody here LOVES the free market, right? Well here you go. Pay through the nose. They rip you off because they can.
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Yes, because it works.

First, even though everyone here seems to have judged them as guilty already, this is just a lawsuit, anyone can be sued for anything. We have to wait for what sort of information and proof they have on the matter, it could be a money grab, or a hole in one guilty ruling, we don't know. And last, has nothing to do with the free market, as those actions if true are illegal and is why this lawsuit exists.

Archaea said:
Someone please explain to me what price fixing vs margins are?

Why can’t Samsung, Hynix, etc sell their product for what the market is willing to pay for it? They aren’t a monopoly or a governenment run utility. If they charge too much then competitors will come in a undercut them.

I really don’t see the beef.

How do you as a consumer determine what margin is okay or acceptable for a product you don’t control? Why don’t we go after Walmart for producing T-shirt’s in China for $.50 and selling them for $5? 10x markup not too much? What about American Eagle with their 50x markup on the same shirt?
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There shouldn't be. Just like GPU prices, lots of people hate it, but don't talk about price fixing, rather people blame others for buying trucks and planes full of GPUs at a time for farms. All of those rigs and GPUs take RAM as well, it could very well be just supply and demand. These companies have to look at long term ROI, many want to see those demands last and are not a spike because of mining etc only to fail. and they end up being stuck with lots of money dumped into fabs that then sit idle. That can be a massive mistake for a company.

With that said, markets like this also take a while for others to jump in, you are right that if margins get high enough people will enter the market, as it's to good to pass up. However they also have the problem of taking the risk on if its short term or long term demand, as well as the time to build and start fabs etc etc as well as patents and the like that hold others from just jumping in without someone willing to sell them IP. That is one of the reasons you see slower reactions to this sort of thing in tech than just about anything else, as patents more or less give monopoly rights to a single, or select few to make and sell a product.
 
But the free market will just fix itself if we didn't interfere, right?

Yeah it fixes itself alright, or at least the prices!
 
Still hoping to upgrade my linux box from a 4770k to ryzen 5 2600x...but won't because the dram I put in it (2x16G) will almost be worth as much as the cpu/motherboard combined (possibly more). Looking at $340 or so for cpu+board @ MC...

With that being said, I may poke around and see what I can find used. If I can find 16G sticks sub $100 I'll probably do it.

If not, the waiting will continue...
 
M76 said:
But the free market will just fix itself if we didn't interfere, right?

Yeah it fixes itself alright, or at least the prices!
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A monopoly, or price fixing by a few producers is NOT a Free Market. Hence, the reason and need for a "light touch" regulation. No regulation is anarchy. I don't think anyone, even the so-called self-proclaimed anarchists, really want anarchy.

In this case, it seems as if there are sufficient grounds for a lawsuit to determine if price-fixing has occurred.
 
c3k said:
A monopoly, or price fixing by a few producers is NOT a Free Market.
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I don't know what do you mean by that. That it would not occur in a free market, or that a few producers are not the free market? If the first then explain why. If the second well duh, but that's not a point.

BTW I'm not sure what even the proponents of a free market mean by it. Because a market with regulation is not a free market.
 
It's about time we set a nice precedent for this bullshit. How about everyone who has bought ram during the affected time frame, gets a 100% refund. No playing games with $30 checks you have to spend $200 worth of your time prepping paperwork for, and the lawyers make $500 million. Provide your receipt, and that's the check you get, simple.

Cripple the fuckers, and have the companies figure out how to pay. Personal accountability all the way to the top, seize everything of value from mid level management up. One major industry obliteration event like this, and companies will stop. It is absolutely critical that this attack the personal holdings of those at the top, gotta stop insulating this scum from the disasters of their actions while ensuring they still get golden paychecks. Should go both ways.
 
arnemetis said:
It's about time we set a nice precedent for this bullshit. How about everyone who has bought ram during the affected time frame, gets a 100% refund. No playing games with $30 checks you have to spend $200 worth of your time prepping paperwork for, and the lawyers make $500 million. Provide your receipt, and that's the check you get, simple.

Cripple the fuckers, and have the companies figure out how to pay. Personal accountability all the way to the top, seize everything of value from mid level management up. One major industry obliteration event like this, and companies will stop. It is absolutely critical that this attack the personal holdings of those at the top, gotta stop insulating this scum from the disasters of their actions while ensuring they still get golden paychecks. Should go both ways.
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I love the sentiment, but understand that punishment should be focused on the decision makers. Anything that affects production is going to affect costs, period.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I love the sentiment, but understand that punishment should be focused on the decision makers. Anything that affects production is going to affect costs, period.
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That would be ideal, yes. Sometimes I get carried away, but I just want a way to make a mark to ensure this doesn't happen again. The punishment needs to be so astronomical that it isn't worth running the risk, which I guarantee this was considered. Gonna be real tough to properly identify those specifically who made this happen too I think, and even then, unlikely they have enough that can be taken. If we just strip off the specific few at the top who are identified, that leaves too much slime intact that will cause the next one. I want a terrifying deterrent, not a fine to be added into the calculations for the bean counters.
 
arnemetis said:
I want a terrifying deterrent, not a fine to be added into the calculations for the bean counters.
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Your catch-22 here is that any deterrent will absolutely be factored in by the bean counters. Hell, just punishing executives will up costs: their potential replacements are likely to demand higher compensation given the associated risks ;).
 
Did they not learn from the early 2000's when they all got nailed then too?
 
We did a gigantic forklift with our data center and purchased ~6TB of RAM for our hosts. I wonder how much we might be eligible for as this rolls along.
 
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