DOT and EPA Announce New Gas Mileage Regulations

[Ducman69]

By the time the market changes, it'll be too late.

Just like battery technology has been increasing at a snails pace because the government hasn't mandated its investment.

Oh wait, we have seen an absolute revolution in battery tech from when I was a child thanks to CONSUMER DEMAND for laptops, phones, etc that are smaller, lighter, and with longer running time.

And too late for what? Somebody has watched The Day After Tomorrow one too many times.

 

[Big John]

What irks me the most is that some members of society seem to forget that the Government is our employees not our masters! But instead the "progressives/liberals/socialist" members of our society seem to, no, absolutely believe that the Government should Lord over us!

THAT IS NOT FREEDOM!!!

I will drive what ever I desire! And if I desire to surround my loved ones in the safety of an SUV , no socialist puke is going to tell me any different!!

And as far as it creating jobs, it will create new jobs in China!! The estimate is that it will COST the U.S. 750,000 jobs.

You do remember how all of the money thrown away in the form of incentives for the solar industry was supposed to create thousands of new jobs don't you? It did, in China!!

Great job, Chairman Obama!!

 

[Mohonri]

Wow, there are a lot of people in this thread that don't understand basic economics.

First of all, a few facts:
1) Oil companies (aside from OPEC) are not controlling fuel prices. OPEC can influence oil prices, but only by varying how much oil they produce. If they cut their production, it raises prices, but they're selling less. The biggest international oil company, ExxonMobil, controls about 3% of the world's reserves.
2) Oil companies (and I used to work for one of them) aren't in a conspiracy to keep fuel-saving inventions off the market.
3) There will never be a sudden depletion of oil or gasoline. As supplies dwindle, prices will go up. As prices go up, more oil reservoirs become economic to produce. This is a process that will occur over *decades*, giving the market plenty of time to respond.

Now, with that said, I'm completely against artificial fuel standards. Why? Because they drive up costs and reduce choice in the market. To what end? To reduce emissions by increasing fuel economy, sure. Increases in fuel economy are going to happen anyway, with or without government mandates. Witness what happened a few years ago when oil spiked to $147/barrel. All of a sudden, the Chevy Aveo became a huge seller, and dealer lots were filled with unsold pickup trucks.

That's capitalism, folks. It just works. It ain't perfect, but it sure beats the pants off everything else.

 

[nutzo]

All you knuckleheads hating on this need to understand its mandates like this that give us modern vehicles that make much more power with better mileage. Compare a modern car with a 1970's vehicle and you have no comparison. If you think car companies are motivated to research into efficiency on their own, you are out of your mind.

Wrong. Companies will make the types of cars people want to buy, otherwise they will loose market share.

Just look at gas prices vs. the types of cars people, buy.
When gas first hit more than $4.00 a gallon, people started dumping thier low milage SUV's and buying smaller cars. It had little/nothing to do with milage standards.

 

[nutzo]

Wow, there are a lot of people in this thread that don't understand basic economics.

First of all, a few facts:
1) Oil companies (aside from OPEC) are not controlling fuel prices. OPEC can influence oil prices, but only by varying how much oil they produce. If they cut their production, it raises prices, but they're selling less. The biggest international oil company, ExxonMobil, controls about 3% of the world's reserves.
2) Oil companies (and I used to work for one of them) aren't in a conspiracy to keep fuel-saving inventions off the market.
3) There will never be a sudden depletion of oil or gasoline. As supplies dwindle, prices will go up. As prices go up, more oil reservoirs become economic to produce. This is a process that will occur over *decades*, giving the market plenty of time to respond.

Now, with that said, I'm completely against artificial fuel standards. Why? Because they drive up costs and reduce choice in the market. To what end? To reduce emissions by increasing fuel economy, sure. Increases in fuel economy are going to happen anyway, with or without government mandates. Witness what happened a few years ago when oil spiked to $147/barrel. All of a sudden, the Chevy Aveo became a huge seller, and dealer lots were filled with unsold pickup trucks.

That's capitalism, folks. It just works. It ain't perfect, but it sure beats the pants off everything else.

Couldn't have said it better.

We are NOT running out of oil, what we are running out of is CHEAP oil, the kind that can be pumped for $10 a barrel. At $100 a barrel, we have enough oil to last us for well over 50 years.

 

[AnonymousUser]

What irks me the most is that some members of society seem to forget that the Government is our employees not our masters! But instead the "progressives/liberals/socialist" members of our society seem to, no, absolutely believe that the Government should Lord over us!

THAT IS NOT FREEDOM!!!

Not sure where you live (under a rock?) but in the America I live in the government thinks it owns its citizens (and it sure does feel like they're right too) and does not work for them in anyway nor does any of its officials either that matter.

The government does however tax most of us to death (except the elite), waste most of the money on things most of us don't want, passes laws most of us don't want (shit they even pass them after we say not to pass them over and over again), they threaten martial law if banks aren't bailed out for bad gambles (poor and middle class giving the elites billions?), they stay in wars for profit even though the people don't want it, they shit on the constitution daily, commit false flag attacks on their population, cut education, stifle innovation, allow a patent system where no person on bottom will ever make it to the top now without being sued into oblivion, kill jobs, and that's just what I came up with as fast as I could type this out. There's a lot more.

Maybe I'm just a tin-foil wearer but I'm pretty sure I'm wearing it here in reality.

Great job, Chairman Obama!!

What irks me is people that think it matters who's President....lol

 

[Tudz]

Also, these new high mileage cars will NOT be as safe, and will not ride as well. Their frame will be lightened to make the car more fuel efficient. So safe cars like the Ford Taurus G5/G6 and Volvo S80, S60 will go bye bye.

I don't disagree with all you say, but I disagree with this. For one, heavy does not equal safe nor does it equal good ride. Those are design choices that could potentially add weight, but don't have to add a significant amount of weight in reality. Sufficient crumple zones and proper harnesses don't actually weigh all that much. I'd rather have a high speed crash in a light weight race car than a heavy street car, especially if the crash is into a near-immovable object (tree, building).

The real obstacle to efficiency (in terms of weight) is people feeling the need to buy vehicles which are significantly larger and/or more luxurious than they need.

I'm not against people buying large trucks and people movers if that's what they need, I have plenty of tradesman friends who drive monstrous vehicles and I have no problem with that. But lugging around an extra ton of vehicle when you simply don't need it wastes a lot of fuel.

Signed-
A young naive recently graduated engineer and race car enthusiast

 

[nutzo]

Give me a solid diesel hybrid car that can seat 5-6 comfortably for a reasonable price and i'd be all for it

and all the diesel part would do is...charge the battery thus would get upwards of 80-100 MPG equivulent...

Guess you never took physics. A mid-size car is never going to get 80-100 MPG (I can barely get that in my 50cc 2HP moped). And don't count the fake plug-in milage, I'm only talking about gas/diesel.

Most Hybrids already use a atkinson cycle gas engine to improve milage. Diesel will not be a significant improvement over what we see with the current gas hybrids. An improved battery (lighter & higher capacity)might help some, but even for a small car, 50-60 MPG seems to be the limit with normal driving.

 

[nutzo]

20 years ago I was getting between 25 to 28 mpg on the highway in a 1980 full size Chevy truck with a carbureted 305 & 4-speed. (obviously not a stock setup) There is no reason these asshats running these car companies can't get the same in this day & age!

Actually there are plenty of reasons, all related to government regulations.

The require smog equipment, safety equipement and ethenol loaded gas are the 3 good reasons why you see worse milage.

 

[Daggah]

Wow, there are a lot of people in this thread that don't understand basic economics.

First of all, a few facts:
1) Oil companies (aside from OPEC) are not controlling fuel prices. OPEC can influence oil prices, but only by varying how much oil they produce. If they cut their production, it raises prices, but they're selling less. The biggest international oil company, ExxonMobil, controls about 3% of the world's reserves.
2) Oil companies (and I used to work for one of them) aren't in a conspiracy to keep fuel-saving inventions off the market.
3) There will never be a sudden depletion of oil or gasoline. As supplies dwindle, prices will go up. As prices go up, more oil reservoirs become economic to produce. This is a process that will occur over *decades*, giving the market plenty of time to respond.

Now, with that said, I'm completely against artificial fuel standards. Why? Because they drive up costs and reduce choice in the market. To what end? To reduce emissions by increasing fuel economy, sure. Increases in fuel economy are going to happen anyway, with or without government mandates. Witness what happened a few years ago when oil spiked to $147/barrel. All of a sudden, the Chevy Aveo became a huge seller, and dealer lots were filled with unsold pickup trucks.

That's capitalism, folks. It just works. It ain't perfect, but it sure beats the pants off everything else.

No, the problem isn't me not understanding economics. The problem is you thinking that Econ 101 is the end of the discussion when it's not. Go look up "negative externality" and get back to us.

 

[sfsuphysics]

This is such a great rule, because, you know, no one wants sports cars any more.

I feel this is a roundabout(or direct) way of telling me what I can and can't drive.

The US Government needs to stay the hell out of my garage.

This is a "fleet average" requirement though, much like every other one in the past what happens is they companies end up selling a lot of tiny fuel efficient vehicles for low cost (sometimes even a "loss"), and it averages out for those who desire to drive their Escalades in stop and go traffic every morning to work.

And I'm sorry, but the government is telling you what you can and can't drive isn't anything new because the government is who's been subsidizing your cheap ass gas (yes $4/gallon is cheap) for almost as long as cars have existed.

 

[Methadras]

It'll be interesting to see how auto manufacturer's skirt this mandate or fight it. Because you know they will.

 

[Ducman69]

because the government is who's been subsidizing your cheap ass gas (yes $4/gallon is cheap) for almost as long as cars have existed.

LOL! I don't think someone understands what a subsidy is. Our gas is taxed to create an artificially high price. You can argue that it is taxed less than some other places, but it sure as hell isn't subsidized.

And yes, some countries subsidize fuel, such as Venezuela that pays under 20 cents a gallon. In fact, IIRC every major oil producing country subsidizes their gas, and I don't think any have broken the $1 a gallon mark.

Cliffs notes: USA = taxes gas. Tax is the opposite of subsidy.

 

[Sparky]

just think of the $ we could have saved if this went thru the 1st time it was in place!

 

[GoldenTiger]

What irks me is people that think it matters who's President....lol

It amazes me you could think it doesn't. I mean, it's only THE most powerful, prestigious position in America, and one of the leadership positions of the entire world (arguably one of the top few most important ones).

 

[Bladestorm]

It amazes me you could think it doesn't. I mean, it's only THE most powerful, prestigious position in America, and one of the leadership positions of the entire world (arguably one of the top few most important ones).

 

[mynamehere]

They are already selling us less oil for the same amount of money if not more. The world supply isn't as high as one might think.

It's also not as low as they'd have you believe.

 

[AnonymousUser]

It amazes me you could think it doesn't. I mean, it's only THE most powerful, prestigious position in America, and one of the leadership positions of the entire world (arguably one of the top few most important ones).

So you're told (or think). I'd rather sit on the board of the federal reserve. I mean, they loan money to the government after all. Or the World Bank or the IMF, seems way more important in this world to me. When everyone (governments, corporations, people, etc) is in indebted to you, that's true power! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/followthemoney.jpg/

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!“ - Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812)

 

[Jagger100]

Wow, there are a lot of people in this thread that don't understand basic economics.

First of all, a few facts:
1) Oil companies (aside from OPEC) are not controlling fuel prices. OPEC can influence oil prices, but only by varying how much oil they produce. If they cut their production, it raises prices, but they're selling less. The biggest international oil company, ExxonMobil, controls about 3% of the world's reserves.

Yes OPEC is a major player and in particular Saudi Arabia. Not because of the amount of oil they can generate, but the fact its extremely cheap too. They can drown the market with relatively low cost oil if they chose to. Since many of the world players have relatively expensive to pump oil, SA can shut most of them off from the profitability they now enjoy. They are the teeth to enforce behavior in and outside of OPEC

As for 'selling less', oil consumption is extremely inelastic. That means people in the short term can't change how much gas they consume easily. The distance to work, family, shopping, etc. don't all change tomorrow because the price of oil changes. And with the house price collapse, people are really stuck. Just ask yourself, if the price of gas doubled literally tomorrow, could you consume 50% less gas tomorrow and still get everything done you planned? It would take years or decades to adjust to a new price. In the meantime the cost of gas would have to be extremely high before cutting even small amount of consumption. Younger people may do a lot of superfluous driving, that falls away quickly with age.

So when there's a small reduction in available supply, the price skyrockets. So yeah, they may product 10% less, but they gross 100% more and profit even higher. And that's a 10% cost reduction to boot.

Its damn well in their best interest to restrict supply if they can trust other producers to play along.

2) Oil companies (and I used to work for one of them) aren't in a conspiracy to keep fuel-saving inventions off the market.
3) There will never be a sudden depletion of oil or gasoline. As supplies dwindle, prices will go up. As prices go up, more oil reservoirs become economic to produce. This is a process that will occur over *decades*, giving the market plenty of time to respond.

The price of gas is 3x what it was 12 years ago. If its tripled because the cost to pull it out of the ground changed that severely, we're going to be bone dry in 10-15 years. No, the cost of pulling it out of the ground has not tripled. We're getting fucking gouged. Period.

 

[Elios]

fuck oil they should mandate all cars/trucks to use CNG by 2025 that would do far more good and lower car prices
this push for better mileage has only pushed new car prices up to insane levels
what good is the Chevy Volt if it the people that really need it cant afford it the Volt btw is 40k BASE price
the people that really need a car like that are the ones that work hourly and dive less then 20 miles to work and most of them are lucky to make 40k a year

if you can afford a $40,000 car you can damn well pay for fucking gas at 4 bucks a gallon

 

[Jcazz]

But will the prices go up. that is the question, less oil to produce and inflation mixed in with some bullshit lies could lead to same or higher prices. yay!

 

[sfsuphysics]

LOL! I don't think someone understands what a subsidy is. Our gas is taxed to create an artificially high price. You can argue that it is taxed less than some other places, but it sure as hell isn't subsidized.

And yes, some countries subsidize fuel, such as Venezuela that pays under 20 cents a gallon. In fact, IIRC every major oil producing country subsidizes their gas, and I don't think any have broken the $1 a gallon mark.

Cliffs notes: USA = taxes gas. Tax is the opposite of subsidy.

I'm sorry, I forgot that our massive military presence that we've had in certain oil producing locations of the world was simply because they're bad people there.

Just because we tax a product for the end consumer doesn't mean there aren't subsidies for it.

 

[ounumen]

I'm sorry, I forgot that our massive military presence that we've had in certain oil producing locations of the world was simply because they're bad people there.

Just because we tax a product for the end consumer doesn't mean there aren't subsidies for it.

Or instead of pretending we are there for a warm and fuzzy fealing we simply take the oil as would be our right through conquest. But that wouldnt be right so we bleed for nothing.

 

[Ducman69]

I'm sorry, I forgot that our massive military presence that we've had in certain oil producing locations of the world was simply because they're bad people there.

What percentage of US oil imports does Afghanistan represent? And you're saying that the American government gained access to Iraqi oilfields right? No? So at least Iraqi oilfields went primarily to American owned oil companies right? No? But at least Iraqi oil imports are at a special rate and not dictated by normal market prices, right? No? And the war effort is paid for by taxes, taxes levied on the people, and a tax is the opposite of a subsidy so I'm not following.

The US gets the largest share of its oil itself domestically, and the rest of the imports of oil and refined gas come primarily from the hosers up north, the mexies down south, our dearest friends Venezuela, the Saudis, but ultimately its completely irrelevant.

The United States can huff and puff and say that it won't buy anymore oil from Iran. This would have zero effect on fuel prices here or elsewhere, because the oil would still be traded on the global market, and since there would be no change in supply nor demand, prices remain normal. Well, in theory they would, but if its thought of as a precursor to war, which could impact Iran's ability (at least temporarily) to keep "the spice flowing", then speculators would drive prices up in anticipation of a change in global supply from a major exporter.

The real answer, but a whole other topic, for the involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan includes pressure from the military industrial complex, the massive influence of Israel on representatives in Washington, political posturing due to election concerns, and petrodollar warfare due to threats of the Iraq administration to begin trading in the Euro which might have been followed by Russia and then perhaps even OPEC members hostile to the US.

 

[S-F]

Useless. If we are still getting below 55 MPG, or whatever, by 2025 people are stupid. 55 MPG is nothing compared to what we can EASILY accomplish. Now for a truck.... that will be pretty big.

 

[Elios]

Useless. If we are still getting below 55 MPG, or whatever, by 2025 people are stupid. 55 MPG is nothing compared to what we can EASILY accomplish. Now for a truck.... that will be pretty big.

unless you want to drive some thing that looks like a smartcar
50 to 60 is about the limit for a purely gas powered car
again hybrids are still priced out of reach of the people that really need them
whats the point of car that gets 70mpg if it costs 30,000 to 40,000 base price
the people that 4 to 5 bucks a gallon gas prices hurt cant afford a car in that price range
till you see some thing like the Volt with a 15k base price it doesnt matter
we are better off with mandating CNG pumps at gas stations and that all makers offer a CNG powered car under 20k base

 

[Elios]

btw CNG would cost 1 to 2 bucks a gallon and get the same or better mileage

 

[nutzo]

till you see some thing like the Volt with a 15k base price it doesnt matter
we are better off with mandating CNG pumps at gas stations and that all makers offer a CNG powered car under 20k base

Except the range on CNG cars tend to be much lower than gas or diesel, and the storage tank takes alot more space and has has a limited life span of 15-20 years.

If you have a tank failure when filling a gas car, you spill some on the ground & have to clean it up
If you have a tank failure when filling a CNG car, you end up with an explosion and hope you survive with most your body parts intact.

 

[sleepeeg3]

All you knuckleheads hating on this need to understand its mandates like this that give us modern vehicles that make much more power with better mileage. Compare a modern car with a 1970's vehicle and you have no comparison. If you think car companies are motivated to research into efficiency on their own, you are out of your mind. I for one, like modern computer-controlled fuel injection vehicles, because I remember driving around in gutless pieces of shit getting 10mpg and having to work on it every weekend to keep it running. Also, fuck carburetors and points.

All you nanny state whiners need to understand that mandates like this just drive up the cost of cars and gas. Why exactly do you think gas is $4.13 a gallon now? Oil/car companies can charge whatever they please and will raise prices to make sure they are making the same amount of profit or more. Record profits at Exxon - hello?? (You can lead a horse to water...)

Take a freaking economic class so you can learn what an "inelastic" good is.

This country needs a freaking wakeup call from the looney left, because most of this country is too dumb to see past their own nose.

 

[sleepeeg3]

Now, with that said, I'm completely against artificial fuel standards. Why? Because they drive up costs and reduce choice in the market. To what end? To reduce emissions by increasing fuel economy, sure. Increases in fuel economy are going to happen anyway, with or without government mandates. Witness what happened a few years ago when oil spiked to $147/barrel. All of a sudden, the Chevy Aveo became a huge seller, and dealer lots were filled with unsold pickup trucks.

That's capitalism, folks. It just works. It ain't perfect, but it sure beats the pants off everything else.

^Sees past his own nose.

 

[Elios]

Except the range on CNG cars tend to be much lower than gas or diesel, and the storage tank takes alot more space and has has a limited life span of 15-20 years.

If you have a tank failure when filling a gas car, you spill some on the ground & have to clean it up
If you have a tank failure when filling a CNG car, you end up with an explosion and hope you survive with most your body parts intact.

CNG tanks are FAR safer then gas tanks in normal cars id bet my life on it
id rather be read ended in a CNG car then a gas car

 

[Jagger100]

CNG tanks are FAR safer then gas tanks in normal cars id bet my life on it
id rather be read ended in a CNG car then a gas car

The big problem with those tanks is the fill time that no one talks about. We're talking about 15-20 minute wait at professional filling stations. And today, no one would have allowed self-service gas stations. We're lucky those grew up in a big way in the 70's and 80's. So I find it very unlikely we will have self-service filling at those station.

You can fill at home, with a mechanical device that costs about 3 or 4 grand and takes 8 hours for a fill. And being mechanical, it will wear out and be prone to failure.

 

[Elios]

tell that to Oregon and New Jersey

 

[Elios]

oh and there already are CNF fill stations in CA and they dont take 20min and they ARE self serve

 

[Tudz]

Except the range on CNG cars tend to be much lower than gas or diesel, and the storage tank takes alot more space and has has a limited life span of 15-20 years.

If you have a tank failure when filling a gas car, you spill some on the ground & have to clean it up
If you have a tank failure when filling a CNG car, you end up with an explosion and hope you survive with most your body parts intact.

I dunno much about CNG, in Australia we tend to use LPG (which I'll refer to as "gas") in a lot of cars because it's about half the price (or less) of petrol. I've never heard of anyone having an explosive failure because of a gas problem. One friend had gas leaking into the cabin which was extremely dangerous but you'd pass out before the thing exploded (he was a smoker and had a strict no smoking policy in that car ).

Regarding the range issue. Depends on the tank and the car and such. Again, talking LPG coz I don't know CNG, but if you tune a car properly on LPG it actually gets just as good mileage as petrol. When you just throw a petrol driven car on LPG, yeah, it's not as good, because the car is tuned for petrol. Get some LPG cams, heads, proper injection, proper timing (LPG tends to like to be more advanced than what petrol will accept), higher compression (it has a much higher octane rating than petrol so you can run high compression ratios) and you'll actually get more power out of an LPG engine and decent efficiency.

Even on a car that's not set up solely for LPG, just put a big fuck off tank and you're good to go. Last time I went on a trip in my Dad's car we got about 500 miles off LPG, switched to petrol and got another 500 miles or so. My own car is much less efficient (given that it's around 33 years old now) but gets about 15 mpg regardless of whether it's running on petrol or gas.

I assume CNG is a similar situation. It's safe enough and you can get far enough off a tank if you set it up right.

 

[Tudz]

The big problem with those tanks is the fill time that no one talks about. We're talking about 15-20 minute wait at professional filling stations. And today, no one would have allowed self-service gas stations. We're lucky those grew up in a big way in the 70's and 80's. So I find it very unlikely we will have self-service filling at those station.

You can fill at home, with a mechanical device that costs about 3 or 4 grand and takes 8 hours for a fill. And being mechanical, it will wear out and be prone to failure.

When was the last time you filled a gas car? It takes much the same amount of time as petrol, depending on the tank. Mine fills slow because it's a cheap crappy tank, but I'll be finished filling my car at the same time as someone filling petrol will be coming out of the station having paid assuming we started at much the same time, so it only takes me maybe a minute longer to fill my tank, but at a half to a third the price

 

[Jagger100]

oh and there already are CNF fill stations in CA and they dont take 20min and they ARE self serve

Fast fill stations might be the norm while CNG is tinkered with. Good luck with fast fill being the norm if CNG ever goes live. They will last until the first station lets loose.

 

[Elios]

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/refueling.aspx
Honda say it only takes a few min to fast fill
im sure at home with a low pressure system it takes wile but that not a big deal

 

[Red Machine D]

So every US automaker has to make a soul-murdering Prius clone now or face a government beating. Great. I had high hopes for Ford to rule the roost again but they're gonna have to behead a few good cars to make their 75mpg appliance.

 

[bobzdar]

unless you want to drive some thing that looks like a smartcar
50 to 60 is about the limit for a purely gas powered car
again hybrids are still priced out of reach of the people that really need them
whats the point of car that gets 70mpg if it costs 30,000 to 40,000 base price
the people that 4 to 5 bucks a gallon gas prices hurt cant afford a car in that price range
till you see some thing like the Volt with a 15k base price it doesnt matter
we are better off with mandating CNG pumps at gas stations and that all makers offer a CNG powered car under 20k base

Bullshit. The Prius already gets 51mpg and that's a mid sized car that costs $25k. The limit is about 120mpg as a current internal combustion engine is only about 30% efficient in converting the energy in fuel to mechanical work. If we're getting 50mpg in a Prius, which has a higher efficiency at around 40%, ~120mpg would be achievable at 95% efficiency. Diesels get closer to 50% efficiency, but there's a still a LONG way to go to get the most out of a gallon of gas.

The Porsche 918 is estimated to get 78mpg EPA rating, with 880hp no less. That thing will be a monster. If you don't think they can get that technology down to mass produced, affordable scale in 13 years, you haven't been paying attention over the last 30 years of technological progress.