Doomsday Seed Vault Upgraded to Protect against Warming Arctic

Megalith

Megalith

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The Doomsday Seed Vault (or, less dramatically, the Svalbard Global Seed Vault) was established to preserve a wide variety of plant seeds in the event of some global apocalypse. Unfortunately, so-called permafrost actually melted this week and the resulting water breached the entrance of the facility. Luckily, no seeds were harmed, though this scare has jumpstarted a plan to reinforce the area with waterproof walls and ditches to thwart against future surprise pourings. This is probably just me, but it reminds me of a giant Wii.

Statsbygg, the Norwegian construction group behind the vault, has outlined "technical improvements" to keep the entrance safe. It's building waterproof walls and ditches to channel water away, and it's moving electrical equipment out of the entrance to avoid creating a source of heat. The vault will also take fewer visitors to reduce body heat levels -- even that small amount could make a difference. With that in mind, Statsbygg stresses that the seeds themselves have "never been threatened." The mountainside that holds the seeds themselves will keep its permafrost -- the builders just hadn't expected that the permafrost near the entrance would refuse to re-freeze after a decade since construction.
 
tetris42 said:
Cue the brigade to come and tell us that permafrost melting in a short time span is perfectly normal.
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Considering that TFA mentions plans to move the heat generating electrical equipment away from the entrance where the permafrost melted could mean that this was mostly a temporary local issue unrelated to climate, weather, or the solar flares on Proxima Centauri.
 
Dead Parrot said:
Considering that TFA mentions plans to move the heat generating electrical equipment away from the entrance where the permafrost melted could mean that this was mostly a temporary local issue unrelated to climate, weather, or the solar flares on Proxima Centauri.
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Well the article's a repost, and engadget isn't exactly known as the gold standard of journalism. Here's one with more data:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...f-worlds-seeds-flooded-after-permafrost-melts

"But the Global Seed Vault, buried in a mountain deep inside the Arctic circle, has been breached after global warming produced extraordinary temperatures over the winter, sending meltwater gushing into the entrance tunnel."

"But soaring temperatures in the Arctic at the end of the world’s hottest ever recorded year led to melting and heavy rain, when light snow should have been falling. “It was not in our plans to think that the permafrost would not be there and that it would experience extreme weather like that,” said Hege Njaa Aschim, from the Norwegian government, which owns the vault."

"The vault’s managers are now waiting to see if the extreme heat of this winter was a one-off or will be repeated or even exceeded as climate change heats the planet. The end of 2016 saw average temperatures over 7C above normal on Spitsbergen, pushing the permafrost above melting point."

"“The Arctic and especially Svalbard warms up faster than the rest of the world. The climate is changing dramatically and we are all amazed at how quickly it is going,” Isaksen told Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet.

But yeah, totally unrelated. I'm sure engadget has a better assessment than the people who were actually there.
 
Dead Parrot said:
Considering that TFA mentions plans to move the heat generating electrical equipment away from the entrance where the permafrost melted could mean that this was mostly a temporary local issue unrelated to climate, weather, or the solar flares on Proxima Centauri.
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And you win the internet! Smh...
 
stop lying, our politicians say global warming is nonsense and just is being used an excuse to cover the incompetence of the planners of that seed vault.
 
jiminator said:
stop lying, our politicians say global warming is nonsense and just is being used an excuse to cover the incompetence of the planners of that seed vault.
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never doubt scientists.

CMIP5-90-models-global-Tsfc-vs-obs-thru-2013.png


ever
 
I'm sure we'll get a well reasoned response about why this doesn't matter as soon as something clicks on a "Climate Scientists *hate* him" ad.
 
Who'd a thunk the heaters meant to keep the door from freezing shut instead would melt the ice?

But lets face it, in a nuclear holocaust, we will all be fucked.
 
You mean global warming isn't a myth propagated by J-Eye-Nah?

Still some better forethought should have been exercised in building the vault.
 
sirgallium said:
Time to get working on that bunker. Remember lots of canned food and download all the anime you can, like 10 years worth.
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nope, in a world of survivors and dead bodies, i'll be a dead body. if there is a zombie outbreak, I'll probably wind up being a zombie. yeah, lol
 
tetris42 said:
Well the article's a repost, and engadget isn't exactly known as the gold standard of journalism. Here's one with more data:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...f-worlds-seeds-flooded-after-permafrost-melts

"But the Global Seed Vault, buried in a mountain deep inside the Arctic circle, has been breached after global warming produced extraordinary temperatures over the winter, sending meltwater gushing into the entrance tunnel."

"But soaring temperatures in the Arctic at the end of the world’s hottest ever recorded year led to melting and heavy rain, when light snow should have been falling. “It was not in our plans to think that the permafrost would not be there and that it would experience extreme weather like that,” said Hege Njaa Aschim, from the Norwegian government, which owns the vault."

"The vault’s managers are now waiting to see if the extreme heat of this winter was a one-off or will be repeated or even exceeded as climate change heats the planet. The end of 2016 saw average temperatures over 7C above normal on Spitsbergen, pushing the permafrost above melting point."

"“The Arctic and especially Svalbard warms up faster than the rest of the world. The climate is changing dramatically and we are all amazed at how quickly it is going,” Isaksen told Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet.

But yeah, totally unrelated. I'm sure engadget has a better assessment than the people who were actually there.
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And if someone pointed out an usually cold year, people would flip the 'f' out that 1 year does not a trend make.
 
jpm100 said:
And if someone pointed out an usually cold year, people would flip the 'f' out that 1 year does not a trend make.
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See, that's the thing about PERMAFROST, it's not snow in your backyard you got over the winter. It's been frozen for so long, it's practically permanent! So when ice that's been frozen for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, just HAPPENS to melt during one year, then sure, absolutely nothing to be concerned about.
 
so only the permafrost around the entrance didn't re freeze then?

because it had melted during construction?

maybe they should have designed the entrance better.
 
Faith claims to have the final and best answer.

Science claims to have the best answer we could come up with until now, but always works on creating a more accurate description of reality.

A man of science never stops looking for answers. A man of faith lays back and says: I know everything I need to know.

Which one is more presumptuous?

And people denying climate change and the effects the greenhouse gases are of faith. "It will all work out for the best in the end"
 
The US will be fine. The Great Wall of America will be upgraded to include a fantastic new national window AC.
 
tetris42 said:
See, that's the thing about PERMAFROST, it's not snow in your backyard you got over the winter. It's been frozen for so long, it's practically permanent! So when ice that's been frozen for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, just HAPPENS to melt during one year, then sure, absolutely nothing to be concerned about.
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The presence of the facility itself altered the local permafrost. Likely from running heaters nearly continually over winter and with a foundation that probably goes right into the previous permafrost layer.
 
No. An article was already posted in thread about that issue and was pretty clear that higher climate temps were to blame not waste heat from the structure.

That seed vault has been running since 2008 and hasn't had this issue before.

If waste heat, sufficient to melt enough permafrost to cause flooding (lol not happening), was the cause it would've been a problem years ago and a obvious one at that since the amount of waste needed to do that would have to be nothing less than incredible. As tetris42 notes, its freakin' PERMAFROST, its not going melt due to waste heat from even a large building in sufficient quantity to cause localized flooding.

A different article mentions most of the waste heat in that area was from a transformer station. Even a really big transformer station isn't going to put out the sort of heat you'd need to cause flooding from melted permafrost.
 
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The fact that conversations like this are still happening in 2017 shows how incredibly effective the climate skeptic push has been. Oh well wind is cheaper than coal now and you cant deny economics.
 
sirgallium said:
The fact that conversations like this are still happening in 2017 shows how incredibly effective the climate skeptic push has been. Oh well wind is cheaper than coal now and you cant deny economics.
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True. But never underestimate well-funded lobbyists.
 
sirgallium said:
Waterworld here we come
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If all ice melts its around 77 meters(7 from Greenland, 70 from Antarctica). Not that much in relative earth terms, but for example cities like Miami is completely gone like other coastal cities.
 
sirgallium said:
The fact that conversations like this are still happening in 2017 shows how incredibly effective the climate skeptic push has been. Oh well wind is cheaper than coal now and you cant deny economics.
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Yeah, I think it's going to take all the ice on both poles completely melting before the skeptics pivot from "it's not happening" to "it's not contributed to by human activity." I mean to me, permafrost melting = holy shit, but not everyone can connect the dots.
 
They can they just don't want to connect those dots because it'd mean they have been wrong about lots of things by default. Its a form of denial.
 
I'm frankly surprised that better waterproofing efforts were not part of the original design - particularly when the existence of this facility is preparing for climate change :p
But, hindsight is 20/20.

MESSAGE ABOUT THE MEASURES
The seed vault is a success, with widespread support and a well-functioning operation. Statsbygg is now implementing measures that will continue to protect the seed vault in the future.

Some improvement measures are being implemented to prevent the season-dependent intrusion of water into the seed vault’s access tunnel. When water intrudes into the outer part of the seed vault, the water is immediately pumped out again by pumps that work around the clock.

  • Statsbygg has moved the transformer station out of the tunnel. This provides safer operation, easier maintenance and has removed a heat source.
  • Drainage ditches to be constructed and terrain leveling will take place on the mountainside above the seed vault to prevent melt water from Platåfjellet accumulating around the access tunnel and to protect against water intrusion resulting from any climate change
  • A waterproof wall will be constructed in the access tunnel as extra protection for the actual vault.
  • Alternatives to a new access tunnel to the seed vault will be explored to improve safety in a long-term perspective.
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Looking at the planned actions, it looks like this is being addressed - the most important being the re-grading and earthwork related to improving drainage upstream.
 
Mav451 said:
I'm frankly surprised that better waterproofing efforts were not part of the original design - particularly when the existence of this facility is preparing for climate change :p
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They did.

Original planning did account for some climate warming, just not to the degree they're seeing there. That is why its so surprising that this is happening.
 
Original planning did account for some climate warming, just not to the degree they're seeing there. That is why its so surprising that this is happening.
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I'm an engi myself - if something fails, it was under-designed. Much of the time, budget will limit the safety factor engineered into a facility. I saw no indication of VE (value-engineering) at all being a factor here, however.

I've gone through their public-facing feasibility study here, https://cdn.croptrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Svalbard-Report.pdf
and there's no mention of drainage studies, geological investigation, or any significant foresight for waterproofing. As I said before, hindsight is 20/20, but there is a glaring omission of planning here. Let's be realistic about that.

I looked at Norways BMP for SWM and judging by page 5 of this, https://web.sbe.hw.ac.uk/staffprofiles/bdgsa/temp/12th ICUD/PDF/PAP005328.pdf, there should have been consideration for snow melting as part of BMP.
And yes, runoff in colder climates is certainly a big issue (reduced soil infiltration) - so once again, where was that planning hmm?
 
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Mav451 said:
I'm an engi myself - if something fails, it was under-designed.
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Nothing about the facility caused a failure though. The permafrost melted. And it apparently melted in a fairly large area.

Mav451 said:
so once again, where was that planning hmm?
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Other articles mentioned they did planning, just because you can't find them doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Master_shake_ said:
but the hysterical increases that doomsday scientists bleat are not real.
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The "hysterical" stuff isn't supposed to be happening yet and by the time it does it'll be too late to do much about it. Broadly speaking the models have been doing a decent job and are getting better all the time. Especially as other factors, like ocean heatsinking, are taken into effect.

edit:\/\/\/\/\/ Your information is old. Look at something more recent instead of googling for whatever denier articles from 2015 you can find.
 
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No statistically significant warming in 18 years.

That said, it is certainly within the scope of the seed vault to have a contingency plan for catastrophic climate change.
 
Ask any developer out there that would find flooding acceptable. This is not something to rationalize, and yet that is something you keep pushing.

Let's see how significant the improvements are once they are complete. We shouldn't have to revisit this once again, if due diligence is performed.
 
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