Does anyone make a 24" 1920x1200 S-PVA Monitor?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by herhubby, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    I am trying to find a replacement for my old 19" Samsung 193P+ S-PVA monitor. I recently purchased a Dell U2311h IPS monitor, with the mistaken assumption IPS monitors were better, but the viewing angles were horrible. Just standing up next to the desk, most images on the screen were dark and completely unviewable. Needless to say, I am returning that monitor.

    From the research I've done, it seems most current monitors have issues with backlight bleeding, IPS glow, or weird tinting problems.

    My 193P+ monitor is flawless, perfect image from nearly any angle. It just doesn't have the resolution I need for editing full HD video.

    It seems S-PVA monitors are hard to come by these days.

    I thought the NEC 2490WUXi monitors might be a good solution, but it sounds like the new WUXi2 versions don't have the polarizing filter and thus have the same problems as other monitors. True?

    I don't play games so don't need fast response times, and I only need a single DVI connection.

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. Walker

    Walker Limp Gawd

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    The U2311H has probably the worst viewing angles of all IPS panels. The 193P+ is a great monitor for its age and has less color shift than many new PVA panels but perfect image from nearly any angle? Typing this on one now and the off angle gamma shift of the grey background of these forums is very apparent. AFAIK, there are no 24" 1920x1200 PVA panels being made anymore so your only choice is going with something older like a Dell 2408 or go down in size and resolution and pick one of those newer c-PVA panels.
     
  3. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    Walker,

    NOW you tell me... :)

    I suppose there's a slight luminance change on the gray background as I move from side to side, but that is EXTREMELY minor compared to what I was seeing on the U2311H.

    For example, here are four quick shots of my P193 from different angles. They're a little grainy since I turned off the flash, but the point is I can still see the colors and read the text, even if I'm leaning almost directly above the monitor.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    On the U2311H the screen turned a dark gray and was completely unreadable when I stood up. And depending on the image, I could often see weird glowing effects that looked really bad.

    Any specific models you would recommend (for the USA market)?

    I'm willing to spend up to $600-700 if need be to get a decent monitor, whether that's IPS or S-PVA.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  4. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If you can find one in good condition for a reasonable price ($300 or less) and are willing to swap out the power supply (internal, ~$50 to get a new one on Ebay) when it dies after a while the Soyo DYLM24D6 is an amazing deal. They haven't been in production for a while though.
     
  5. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    You want this. It is important to note that they made a mistake at the time their colorimeter and the black level is not 0.02cdm/2 @140 luminance.

    http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-eizo-ev2333wh-bk.html

    Or the newer Foris FS2331 which has better motion/input lag but a slightly higher black levels (0.05cdm/2 vs 0.04cdm/2 @ 120cdm/2 luminance) and slightly worse viewing angles.

    The Dell is faster then both of these models but C-PVA panels looks way better.
     
  6. pmpysz

    pmpysz Limp Gawd

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    I completely agree with this ^

    I owned the U2311H and now I have Samsung F2380s. The Sammy C-PVA panel looks a million times better in every way except response time. I couldn't stand the flaws in the IPS panels, so I stuck with the C-PVAs.
     
  7. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'll sell you my PX2611w for $600+shipping. ;)
     
  8. phiberoptik

    phiberoptik Limp Gawd

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  9. Zangmonkey

    Zangmonkey I Realize My Disabilities - You Do Too

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  10. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Except there is no gaurentee that you will get the Rev02 which doesn't have the ridiculous input lag. Not worth the time/effort for returns when the Eizo models will look way better.
     
  11. Walker

    Walker Limp Gawd

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    He doesn't play games though so input lag shouldn't be a problem. Don't know about the US but the Eizo is ridiculously expensive here for a 23" 1080p monitor.
     
  12. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    I have been considering the F2380's. Apparently the F2380MX version is not available here in the US, so are there any glaring flaws with the regular F2380's?

    I'm not sure if input lag is the same as the monitor response time, but my 193P+ is rated at something like 20ms and I have never noticed any issues with video or anything else. If the F2380 is the same or better, I'm sure it would suit my needs fine.

    I only wish the F2380 was available in a 1920x1200 resolution version.
     
  13. pmpysz

    pmpysz Limp Gawd

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    My only complaint with my F2380s is the pixel response time. I do notice ghosting. There is also a slight gamma shift if you start to move around a lot while looking at the screen. This only appears to show at certain angles and then disappears at all other angles (about 45 degrees). Black crush is small to non-existent to me as well. They definitely do a better job than my 42" MVA Westy. I notice no imput lag and every review of them that I've read said it's non-existent. So all you have to deal with is some ghosting.

    I am still very very very happy with them and I game on them, the small amount of ghosting doesn't bother me. I had 3x U2311Hs at first and they had far too many image quality problems for me (ex: yellow tinting, off-angle IPS white glow, blacks had purple and blue aurora type gradients in the dark but couldn't be seen in the light unless off angle, the pee yellow tinting was the worst, edit: add in the massive anti-glare coating that makes it look like 1000s of tiny water droplets on your screen and blurs pixels, you won't have that problem with the F2380). The U2311H's colors were nice when viewing a wide range, but as soon as you moved onto solids, it failed. The thing is no better than a TN imo.

    I sent them back and picked up 3x F2380s for $190 each new. My only wish is that they were as big as my good old Westy is.

    Oh, one last complaint about them would be that the dumb power light blinks in standby mode. So you gotta cover it or turn the screens off. I also wish the menu was built into the bezel instead of a small tab type deal on the bottom of the bezel. It would make portrait mode more seemless.
     
  14. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I would say 70ms is way to much lag for desktop use. Everything is very floaty and inacurate, my TV is 60ms and is a pain to use as a dekstop. Have to move the mouse slowly to accomplish anything.

    In Canada the Eizo Foris FS2331 retails for 575$ and the EV2333 is 630$ while the U2410 is 700$ which severly lacks performance wise by comparison, especially considering the QC issues. I wouldn't call the Eizos ridculously expensive with that in mind.

    Don't know the input lag numbers on the Samsung 193P+, but the regular Dell 2408 pretty much tops anything monitor wise for input lag.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  15. wagoo

    wagoo Limp Gawd

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    I'll throw the BenQ FP241W into the mix.. if you can find one refurbed/on ebay.
     
  16. SD45

    SD45 Limp Gawd

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    Samsung 244t and HP LP2465 are still available new and used on Ebay. $300-$400 range.

    I am typing this on the HP LP2465, which I use every day. I have the 244t stashed away after using it briefly to check it out--I owned a 215tw previously and find that the 244t has slightly more moderate contrast and less problem with viewing angle.

    I use an NEC LCD 2470WNX every day and like it the best of the models I am mentioning here. The Samsung is the most contrasty, the NEC is next, and the HP is next. Although they are all acceptable in terms of contrast, the NEC 2470 seems most accurate, and IMO its overall image quality resembles that of the NEC LCD2490Wuxi (version 1), which I also own and use only for photo work. I liked the 2470 so much for everyday use that I bought a second refurb from NEC about a year ago and stored it. For months, you could get them for $239 direct from NEC. I don't find them on the NEC site any longer, nor do I find them elsewhere.

    I do not find viewing angles a problem on any of these S-PVA displays. Noticeability of the viewing angle seems to track the contrast ranking--Samsung "worst," HP "best." The differences are slight. Input lag is not the strong suit of S-PVA but it's not a problem for me.

    Not to rehash the 16:10 vs. 16:9 debate, but I knew that 1920x1200 was essential when I discovered that I could put two MS Word pages side-by-side on the screen at full size, i.e., each page is 8.5 wide x 11 inches tall. When writing text illustrated with photos and captions, I need to be able to see how it will look at actual size. I'm tempted to go larger but the choices are not plentiful and if the display gets any larger it will prevent me from looking out the window.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  17. Walker

    Walker Limp Gawd

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    I thought it was more like 40-50ms. 70ms does sound a lot.

    They all seem too expensive to me TBH. But if money isn't a problem then one of the Eizos is probably what the OP wants.

    I've seen the original F2380 and I thought it had more gamma shift and was slower than my 193P+ (which is rated at 8ms GtG BTW). According to my unreliable measurements, the 193P+ has only around 10ms of input lag.
     
  18. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    While the older monitors sound nice (244T, HP 2465, etc.), they're hard to find and don't come with any kind of return policy. After my experience with the U2311h, I'm not willing to take that chance.

    The Eizo monitors sound OK, but are on the upper end of my price range, and I can't find anyone that has them in stock (all have to be special ordered direct from the manufacturer). Special orders are usually non-returnable, so those are out.

    The Samsung F2380 sounds like it has worse quality than my current 193P+, so I guess I'll rule that one out as well.

    So, it appears PVA monitors are no longer an option. Bummer.

    Are there any 23 or 24" IPS monitors you would recommend, preferably black case with the 1920x1200 resolution?

    I'm really disappointed with what I'm seeing on the market right now. I may just stick with my 193P+ for a while longer.
     
  19. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    HP ZR24w. Buy from somewhere like Newegg that moves a lot of stock because the earlier revisions reportedly sometimes has tinting issues, but the more recent ones have been consistently near perfect. Fits your budget too. If I were getting a 24" there's no question which I'd be looking at.
     
  20. Treyshadow

    Treyshadow [H]ard|Gawd

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    I agree, the HP ZR24W or the Dell U2411 would be my choice. Both have excellent colors and Dell finally fixed the issues the U2411 had initially (pink edges).
     
  21. Walker

    Walker Limp Gawd

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    The F2380 doesn't necessarily have worse quality. I'm sure once properly calibrated it would have better colors and better contrast than the 193P+ but from what I've seen, it does have more gamma shift (made worse by the aspect ratio which means you are viewing the sides at an angle) and a slower matrix, plus the contrast of the 193P+ is already very good.

    Personally, I recently upgraded from 193P+ to a HP ZR24w and I'm very happy with it. The 1920x1200 resolution feels just right at that size unlike 23" 1080p panels which are even shorter in height than my 193P+. The text is much crisper, the colors are more accurate out of the box and the viewing angles are good enough to comfortably sit in front of the monitor without noticeable color shifting. BUT, seeing as you were so unhappy with the U2311H, I'm not sure I would recommend it. It IS a better monitor than the Dell in my eyes but from what you're saying, IPS just might not be the panel for you.
     
  22. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    If you still have both monitors, could you take some pictures showing the two monitors together. One shot from the front, one from each side at an angle, and one looking down from above (like I posted of my 193P+). Video would be awesome if you're able to post it somewhere (youtube?).

    The U2311H came "close" to what I was looking for, but I just couldn't believe how bad the image got just by standing up next to my desk (i.e. looking over my wife's shoulder playing farmville.). The other issues like the IPS glow were annoying, but not a deal breaker, at least at the level I saw.
     
  23. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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  24. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't get it -- why do you care about these extreme viewing angles? I mean, I think the HP will work well enough for you, you won't be disappointed, but so long as there's no color shift from normal angles (how often do you stand directly above your monitor looking down at the screen, after all) that's good enough. It's not a TV, you're going to be sitting at the desk in front of it for normal use.

    The thing that got me to switch from TN to P-MVA and H-IPS was better color reproduction and removal of the gamma shift from top to bottom of the panel, more than viewing angles. I think this is the case for most people.
     
  25. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    While the majority of my time is spent sitting in front of the monitor, we also spend a fair amount of time standing next to the desk while the other shows something they are doing. Occasionally, we even watch from a chair back off to the side a bit. So, while the "extreme" angles aren't critical, it does offer the flexibility to see the screen from wherever we might be viewing it from.

    I thought the Dell U2311H looked great sitting directly in front of it. But, even moving my head from side to side would change the colors, making it useless for photo editing or other color sensitive tasks. When my wife called me in to look at what she was doing on the computer, I couldn't even see the screen.

    We tried for a few days to see if we could adapt, but in the end the extremely limited viewing angle was unacceptable. So, I am returning it.

    Maybe this is an isolated case, but I've seen video after video on YouTube showing IPS glows and viewing angle issues for most popular IPS panels. So I guess I'm a little nervous to give it another try.
     
  26. Walker

    Walker Limp Gawd

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    Unfortunetaly, I don't have them at the same place anymore because I moved the Samsung to my parents' house so I can't do a side by side comparison. I think I do have some pics when I had them both at my desk but I believe none were shot from any angles that would be of any use. I could take some pics separately but I'm not sure how accurate that would be with different ambient lighting and the poor quality of my camera so perhaps it would be better to try to explain the difference between the two.

    The viewing angles are... different. Viewing from the front, the HP is better despite being much bigger in size. The 5:4 aspect ratio and the small size helps to minimize the gamma shift on the Samsung and yet the HP still performs better in the lagom viewing angle test when viewed head on: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php#angleGrey When you start moving your head off axis, the panels behave quite differently. The HP gets dimmer and the usual IPS glow on blacks appears. The Samsung on the other hand as you know doesn't lose brightness that much but it gets more washed out, whites become yellowish and the overall gamma shift is there. When you reach a certain angle, the Samsung actually looks better. But then the more you continue to extreme angles the HP starts to look better once again.

    In summary, the HP is better viewed head on and with small head movements. The Samsung looks better, especially vertically, at such angles like standing up and looking down at the screen. At very extreme angles, the HP is again better because it's not washed out like the Samsung is. While the ZR24w should be better than the U2311H, I would say it's not really among the best performing IPS panels for actual off angle viewing. The viewing angles are excellent for what I need them to be, i.e. I can sit in my chair comfortably in front of the screen without any noticeable color shift unlike TN and most *VA panels, but for more than occasional off angle viewing, I'm not sure if I would recommend it considering your experience with the Dell. There's a pic of the ZR24w viewing angles that shows what I'm saying well but I believe it should not be posted publicly so check your PM :)
     
  27. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's isolated. I can easily (no straining) read text on my current H-IPS based panel from any of the extreme angles you posted pictures of. There is some gamma shift going to the far, far, far left or far far far right, but just moving your head while in front of the display produces no appreciable change.
     
  28. BrePu

    BrePu [H]Lite

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    Sorry guys but how can ANYONE suggest a U2410 or a HP ZR24w to someone who hates the IPS white glow? Both have major issues with the white glow, that's a fact. The white glow isn't an issue you only see when you look at the screen from an angle, you can also see it in the bottom right and bottom left corner of today's IPS screens if you sit right in front of them. If you doubt that you have never seen a IPS screen with an A-TW polarizer.

    In my opinion, IPS died when they decided to get rid of the A-TW polarizer. The best IPS panel out there is still the NEC 2490WUXi (the first version), have a look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM4H6xZeq9w

    I hate my U2711 and I hated every single IPS display I owned over the last year, and hell I owned a lot. The only reason I still have my U2711 is that I cannot find any better display out there, I cannot even find any version 1 models of the 2490WUXi on eBay anymore, This really makes me a sad panda :(

    It seems like the EIZO monitors with their PVA panels are pretty decent in terms of image quality. I really cannot recommend modern IPS displays to anyone who doesn't need the lower input lag at all cost. I would instantly buy a PVA if there would be a decent 27" model out there.
     
  29. daveswantek

    daveswantek [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah; I agree, but the largest cPVA is like 23 inch 16 by 9, which is too small for me. Samsung seems to have all but abandon computer displays.

    The dot pitch on 32 inch TVs make them a washout as well.

    It seems we just can't win

    Dave
     
  30. Aslund

    Aslund n00b

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    Hey

    I have myself 193p+ and a couple of months back I bought Eizo EV2333 with c-PVA panel. While it look pretty good initially, then compared with the 193p+ was it just disappointing, especially given the price point. The 193p+ was, by a huge margin, a lot more vibrant in colours and I returned it and stick with my 193p+ untill it dies.

    Regards

    Sebastian Aslund
     
  31. herhubby

    herhubby n00b

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    I am most likely going to stick with my 193P+ a while longer, as monitor technology seems to have taken steps backward instead of getting better. Very disappointing.
     
  32. BrePu

    BrePu [H]Lite

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    The EIZO 23" cPVA series are some of the best monitors out there. I might even get one for myself and trash my creepy U2711, who cares about the size when everything looks totally fucked up. Are you sure that you picked the right color profile on your EIZO? I cannot really imagine that your old display was better, the 23" EIZOs are very very color accurate and have a static contrast of over 3100 according to PRAD.
     
  33. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, 3100 is untouchable. I can promise the EIZO is the better of the two displays. Maybe the other oversaturates and you'd just become used to that over time, and a more accurate monitor looks worse to you? This happens to people a lot who fall in love with the "vibrant" colors from HP and other manufacturer's glossy type screens then think everything looks washed out on a properly calibrated PVA or IPS display.
     
  34. OrangeWolf

    OrangeWolf Gawd

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    This might be a somewhat daft question, but would you say that the Dell U2311 was superior to most TN displays using LED?

    Everyone says that TN is craptastic for everything but speed, you see, but I'm not sure if you are saying that the U2311 is quite poor compared to your nicer monitors (which no doubt is true) or if it's that bad all around, even compared to TN panels.

    I'm debating buying one, you see, and my budget is rather stubbornly stuck at the $300 range. Seeing all the disdain for TN displays though I'm tempted to try for a IPS or VA.

    Thanks.
     
  35. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't understand this. Current IPS panels do get darker from above, but the image should remain viewable. The glow might get in the way of the darkest shades though.

    Your pictures clearly show a huge gamma shift, although the text is still readable.

    Right. The original NEC LCD2490WUXi had very good viewing angles, while version 2 gets darker from above and has the white glow.

    If you want to stick with PVA, the Samsung 2333T just recently became available.



    That sounds like a gamma difference combined with the way colors wash out at slight angles on PVA panels, especially on a wider screen. EIZO monitors are among the few monitors that are calibrated at the factory, but that doesn't take viewing angles into account, so a gamma of 2.2 will look more like 1.8-2.0 for the darker colors, depending on how far you're sitting. Many Samsung monitors have the gamma fudged to give the illusion of greater depth and to counteract the way the gamma shifts on PVA and TN panels. Based on the pictures in this thread, it's clear to me the 193P+ is one of those monitors, with a gamma probably around 2.4. If you want fake vibrancy, all that's needed is a simple gamma adjustment.

    My first monitor was a Samsung 191T, and like you, I was frustrated by the color differences of newer monitors, but as I tried more and more monitors, I realized the color differences were caused by different gamma curves along with viewing angles washing out the colors. This became more apparent when I got a colorimeter and started calibrating different types of monitors.

    IPS panels have the best color stability in that the colors don't wash out at slight angles, but I find they need calibration to look their best. If you were to get an IPS panel and calibrate it to a higher gamma like 2.4, it should give you the vibrancy you're looking for.
     
  36. monitorrat

    monitorrat Limp Gawd

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    It really is a shme that they got rid of the A-TW polarizer. THat said, despite all the white glow I still think my NEC PA241W has a much better overall image than the Samsung 244T I just sold a couple months ago. Not that the Samsung was bad (although the CR is nothing compared to an SPVA HDTV or the EIzo 2331 although it was a little better than the IPS NEC) but it doesn't quite cover all sRGB never mind offer wide gamut there is no way to tune it to perfect saturation and tone curves (simple gamma only and even at that it the options appear to select between gamma 2.4-2.6!) for non-managed programs and even for managed or ones that at least can use the gfx card LUT to get the color temp and gamma 2.2, since it doesn't cover all of sRGB and the primary luminances are well different too it's not quite so exact and with no internal 3D LUT it has the usual banding on 0-255 scales and while it was reasonable uniform it can't touch the NEC once the compensator is going and it does have the usual slight gamma and color shift from side to side off angle (even head on from normal distance, you might not realize it does it even then unless you have it side by side to an IPS and then you see it's definitely doing it even head on and when you use IPS you realize that something had always been subtly wrong edge to edge with PVA).

    The downsides to the NEC PA241W are the white glow, weak blacks compared to the best PVA, a bit strong AG (i know many hate glossy but I like samsung HDTV level of glossy better than AG sparkle and contrast rob). Other than that it is truly superb.
     
  37. Pultzar

    Pultzar Limp Gawd

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    I've seen some NECs on E-Bay. How can you tell if they have the AT-W polarizer. The different in that you tube video was astonishing.

    They probably took it out because the masses can't tell or don't care.