Ditching my Wireless G! What's your take?

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Operaghost

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jun 4, 2004
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So it's time to finally get rid of my Wireless G router haha!

I know these consumer grade routers are frowned upon, but I am not very savvy when it comes to networking, and I don't have the time to devote to learning how to setup the "pro-sumer" stuff.

So I'm looking for a low cost solution to upgrade to a wireless AC router.

These are the two I'm looking at,

Asus RT-ACRH13
https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Band-Su...533984681&sr=8-3&keywords=ac+wifi+router&th=1

vs.

TP-Link Archer C1200
https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC12...qid=1533984681&sr=8-5&keywords=ac+wifi+router

I do want to use the USB for an external HDD, but short of that, I just want solid, low ping Wifi. I only have a 2-3 devices using bandwidth at any given time. Mostly gaming and streaming TV. House is only 48' long, router will be located in basement and Wifi devices used on ground level.

Please advise..
 
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Do you have a budget? There are better routers for not much more money. Do your devices utilize ac?
 
Budget is $50-100, would prefer on the lower end considering people only seem to get a couple years out of these things.

I'm not sure if my TV utilizes AC, I will have to look into that, but I'm assuming my phone does (LG V30+). Those are the major devices I use, also have an HP laptop, not sure about the adapter in it. Will have to check on that also.

Which routers for "not much more money" were you thinking of?
 
2-3 devices? You'll be more than happy with either device you listed.

In before someone decides to suggest an ERL an AP Pro to someone who's survived this long on a G router.
 
criccio Yeah, I've noticed all the suggestions in other threads for enterprise type stuff.

Granted, once my kids get older (still years to go) I'm sure I'll need more bandwidth, but for now. It's pretty much the wife and I, in a small ass house (1000 sq. ft.)

jmilcher I'm still curious on your feedback!
 
If you are willing to wait it out, go used. I paid $140 for my router and I've seen them go for sale in classifieds for $80. It's a Netgear R7000 and I don't like that typing "facebook" in to the "Block Services" section still lets me access Facebook.com but other than that it's been really good and I "only" have an N adapter.

I think people like me get the urge to go to a business or enterprise level setup and ditch their stuff cheap, and I'd imagine one of these higher-spec routers is built to last.

Of the two I'd go for the TP-Link, only because I don't have any trust for Asus in this segment (too new)
 
*EDIT* : I should probably preface this with I run and ER-X and AP's at home and love tinkering with networking gear on an amateur level.

Whether or not Ubiquiti advertises their Unifi gear as such, which they do, is besides the point.

I just see threads like this all the time and its always hilarious. You have a dude that's clearly not a networking professional or enthusiast (nothing against you Operaghost i'm just making a point) that has had a normal home router for years that met their needs (set it and forget it, NOT TINKER WITH IT) and is just looking for something new.

In come the networking professionals and enthusiasts suggesting gear that while FAR easier to setup and get working than some real true enterprise stuff, is still going to take more know-how and time to just get basic functionality working than say a high-end home grade router. All the while the features and flexibility that makes that gear so good would go unused.

It's just a weird phenomenon I see all the time. People seem to completely forget read into the situation to take into account the needs and desires of the person actually asking for help in some of these cases. They may not want something they need to spend time configuring or have the ability to tinker with every setting. While that's what you and I might want, it just doesn't make sense every single time someone wants a new router.

/rant
 
criccio said:
*EDIT* : I should probably preface this with I run and ER-X and AP's at home and love tinkering with networking gear on an amateur level.

Whether or not Ubiquiti advertises their Unifi gear as such, which they do, is besides the point.

I just see threads like this all the time and its always hilarious. You have a dude that's clearly not a networking professional or enthusiast (nothing against you Operaghost i'm just making a point) that has had a normal home router for years that met their needs (set it and forget it, NOT TINKER WITH IT) and is just looking for something new.

In come the networking professionals and enthusiasts suggesting gear that while FAR easier to setup and get working than some real true enterprise stuff, is still going to take more know-how and time to just get basic functionality working than say a high-end home grade router. All the while the features and flexibility that makes that gear so good would go unused.

It's just a weird phenomenon I see all the time. People seem to completely forget read into the situation to take into account the needs and desires of the person actually asking for help in some of these cases. They may not want something they need to spend time configuring or have the ability to tinker with every setting. While that's what you and I might want, it just doesn't make sense every single time someone wants a new router.

/rant
Click to expand...

Coming from someone running this stuff, I hold you to a higher standard and hope you reconsider your position on the subject. If you haven't already, understand the inherent (and typically not obvious) risks to running consumer-grade stuff. Poor hardware and security vulnerabilities that don't receive updates are two major reasons why nobody should spend their valuable dollar on that equipment.
Most people are capable of watching a 20 minute video and configuring their gear. Most people will be much more happy with their equipment being secure and getting better value for their dollar.
 
ZeqOBpf6 said:
If you are willing to wait it out, go used. I paid $140 for my router and I've seen them go for sale in classifieds for $80. It's a Netgear R7000 and I don't like that typing "facebook" in to the "Block Services" section still lets me access Facebook.com but other than that it's been really good and I "only" have an N adapter.

I think people like me get the urge to go to a business or enterprise level setup and ditch their stuff cheap, and I'd imagine one of these higher-spec routers is built to last.

Of the two I'd go for the TP-Link, only because I don't have any trust for Asus in this segment (too new)
Click to expand...
And I don't trust Asus more thjan I can throw them ever since they completely screwed over a friend of mine with a motherboard that was delivered with bent socket pins.
 
FNtastic said:
Coming from someone running this stuff, I hold you to a higher standard and hope you reconsider your position on the subject. If you haven't already, understand the inherent (and typically not obvious) risks to running consumer-grade stuff. Poor hardware and security vulnerabilities that don't receive updates are two major reasons why nobody should spend their valuable dollar on that equipment.
Most people are capable of watching a 20 minute video and configuring their gear. Most people will be much more happy with their equipment being secure and getting better value for their dollar.
Click to expand...
Good points. Can you list out some of the features that people should have in their router for a minimally acceptable solution? Or features that should be avoided?
 
I have used multiple asus and tp-link routers and can't bring myself to pick a clear winner. They each have a simple and usable interface. Hardware on each are reasonably stable. I've defiantly had issues. One tp-link that I had to reboot constantly, and I had an ASUS that had terrible radio signal. More than not though, they did their job fine.

That said, I've never used the USB feature for more than powering an external device so that could be a deal breaker if one handles it better than the other. The asus has usb 3 so if you plan to move a lot of files, that might be a better choice.

I know that c1200 can take ddwrt so if I had to pick a winner, it'd be that. I use 2 of them in my house. They're wall mountable. That ASUS has mumimo for fairly cheap so I would worry that it won't last (built cheaply to fit features into a cheap price). The 1200 has been around a while and is tried and true.
 
FNtastic said:
Coming from someone running this stuff, I hold you to a higher standard and hope you reconsider your position on the subject. If you haven't already, understand the inherent (and typically not obvious) risks to running consumer-grade stuff. Poor hardware and security vulnerabilities that don't receive updates are two major reasons why nobody should spend their valuable dollar on that equipment.
Most people are capable of watching a 20 minute video and configuring their gear. Most people will be much more happy with their equipment being secure and getting better value for their dollar.
Click to expand...

This is coming from a network security engineer. There are holes in both prosumer and enterprise level networking gear as well. In fact, prosumer and enterprise gear can be even more vulnerable when you have someone that doesn't understand how to configure them properly. Consumer level routers are fine for most individuals at home. The key to any platform is layering your security. Please don't try to sell some guy on expensive gear that can take far more time to keep up on notions that it will make them vastly more secure. It is false.
 
On thing to check with USB ports on routers is what file systems they support. My ISP provides a ZTE ZXHN H298A model that only supports FAT32.
I will be picking up a new TP-Link router the next time I'm in China. I need to replace my last one because even though with is 1750ac it isn't a gigabit router. That's down to my poor Chinese though.
 
Lol my Asus BIOS only supports Fat32 for updates as best as I can tell. Exfat, wouldn't even find the drive so I had to figure out how to format in exfat on Win10 which is not built in
 
Just pick something with ac and usb drive, upgrade your wifi nics to ac if you need to and be done.
 
silk186 said:
I need to replace my last one because even though with is 1750ac it isn't a gigabit router.
Click to expand...

I made this mistake because I couldn't fathom a router being sold let alone produced today that isn't gigabit. Still WTF'ing over it and the fact that I didn't even bother to check; was in and out of town during the return period, so it sits back as backup.

I was moving and had forgotten the old N300 TP-Link that I hadn't used in years; got it set up, threw on WRT, and was back in business until I replaced it with a Ubiquiti stack that I'm learning on.

I had no issues with that old TP-Link other than that they'd not updated the firmware in years, but I'll also say that firmware upgrades are becoming something more common on consumer routers. The new, somehow 10/100 TP-Link seemed to have some 'cloud' connections that gave me the impression that it would be better maintained by TP-Link, and of course, there's always whatever-WRT.

I'd grab a new TP-Link/Netgear/ASUS/whatever has the latest features and comes in at the lowest price and call it a day for fire-and-forget.


Only feature that perhaps I'm fond of is QoS, but I'm not sure I'd spend up much for it. Just need the basics for home stuff, making sure that Netflix still streams during downloads and that games don't spike in ping while steaming Netflix etc.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I made this mistake because I couldn't fathom a router being sold let alone produced today that isn't gigabit. Still WTF'ing over it and the fact that I didn't even bother to check; was in and out of town during the return period, so it sits back as backup.

I was moving and had forgotten the old N300 TP-Link that I hadn't used in years; got it set up, threw on WRT, and was back in business until I replaced it with a Ubiquiti stack that I'm learning on.

I had no issues with that old TP-Link other than that they'd not updated the firmware in years, but I'll also say that firmware upgrades are becoming something more common on consumer routers. The new, somehow 10/100 TP-Link seemed to have some 'cloud' connections that gave me the impression that it would be better maintained by TP-Link, and of course, there's always whatever-WRT.

I'd grab a new TP-Link/Netgear/ASUS/whatever has the latest features and comes in at the lowest price and call it a day for fire-and-forget.


Only feature that perhaps I'm fond of is QoS, but I'm not sure I'd spend up much for it. Just need the basics for home stuff, making sure that Netflix still streams during downloads and that games don't spike in ping while steaming Netflix etc.
Click to expand...
Exactly! How am I supposed to use 1750ac with 100Mbs?
 
x509 said:
Good points. Can you list out some of the features that people should have in their router for a minimally acceptable solution? Or features that should be avoided?
Click to expand...
It's not "features" per se. I'll try to include some stuff in my guide when I update it to help explain.
NoOther said:
This is coming from a network security engineer. There are holes in both prosumer and enterprise level networking gear as well. In fact, prosumer and enterprise gear can be even more vulnerable when you have someone that doesn't understand how to configure them properly. Consumer level routers are fine for most individuals at home. The key to any platform is layering your security. Please don't try to sell some guy on expensive gear that can take far more time to keep up on notions that it will make them vastly more secure. It is false.
Click to expand...
I agree there are holes in everything. Nothing is perfect. Incompetence is outside what we're covering here. You are less likely to adopt issues and vulnerabilities with prosumer and enterprise stuff. Really shocked to hear there are "network security engineers" out there accepting that "it'll be fine". That's not the level of service or education I expect to pay someone for, nor do I provide that type of recommendation to anyone.
Consumer grade has a long history of being more vulnerable. Most times without the owner even knowing they have been hijacked or included in a botnet.
It's also not appropriate to exaggerate my statements. Nowhere did I state anything was "vastly" more secure, although in some cases, you're probably not far off.
You seemed to attack the security aspect, but not address the other major issue with consumer grade devices. Underpowered/inadequate hardware. I imagine you don't have an argument for that since it's a fact. So, taking ONLY those two things into consideration, my statements are true. That you get more value for your dollar.
 
FNtastic said:
That you get more value for your dollar.
Click to expand...

Eh, I'll say this: there's consumer devices that, by nature of being newer and appropriately targeted (and not absolute budged devices), will outperform a similarly-priced prosumer+ stack while also being quicker to properly configure, and potentially more difficult to improperly/insecurely configure.

Also features like having 2x10Gbase-T ports are now available too. I have a hard time recommending the 'enterprise' gear for people that don't want to tinker, unless they have a application that is absolutely better served that way.
 
criccio said:
*EDIT* : I should probably preface this with I run and ER-X and AP's at home and love tinkering with networking gear on an amateur level.

Whether or not Ubiquiti advertises their Unifi gear as such, which they do, is besides the point.

I just see threads like this all the time and its always hilarious. You have a dude that's clearly not a networking professional or enthusiast (nothing against you Operaghost i'm just making a point) that has had a normal home router for years that met their needs (set it and forget it, NOT TINKER WITH IT) and is just looking for something new.

In come the networking professionals and enthusiasts suggesting gear that while FAR easier to setup and get working than some real true enterprise stuff, is still going to take more know-how and time to just get basic functionality working than say a high-end home grade router. All the while the features and flexibility that makes that gear so good would go unused.

It's just a weird phenomenon I see all the time. People seem to completely forget read into the situation to take into account the needs and desires of the person actually asking for help in some of these cases. They may not want something they need to spend time configuring or have the ability to tinker with every setting. While that's what you and I might want, it just doesn't make sense every single time someone wants a new router.

/rant
Click to expand...


Happens all the time with 'IT Guys'. They cannot be trusted to make big purchasing decisions, otherwise Heather on the reception desk would have a 32core Threadripper to play Solitaire on. We would never allow the IT guys anywhere near the cost centres/budgets.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Eh, I'll say this: there's consumer devices that, by nature of being newer and appropriately targeted (and not absolute budged devices), will outperform a similarly-priced prosumer+ stack while also being quicker to properly configure, and potentially more difficult to improperly/insecurely configure.

Also features like having 2x10Gbase-T ports are now available too. I have a hard time recommending the 'enterprise' gear for people that don't want to tinker, unless they have a application that is absolutely better served that way.
Click to expand...
daglesj said:
Happens all the time with 'IT Guys'. They cannot be trusted to make big purchasing decisions, otherwise Heather on the reception desk would have a 32core Threadripper to play Solitaire on. We would never allow the IT guys anywhere near the cost centres/budgets.
Click to expand...
Hire more experienced/educated IT and train them with budget in mind. Offer them some incentive regarding their budget throughout the year. And, don't penalize them for necessary replacement purchases or upgrades. If you hired the right people, they'll get you the right equipment for the right price. Even if others might not like the price, it'll be the right equipment. If you can't afford the equipment, that's another story, and that responsibility doesn't lie with the IT department, nor should they be penalized for that (which is what a lot of companies do!). "oh no, we paid out everyone's bonuses, but we can't buy the network equipment for our upgrade!". Either way, that's another topic for another thread.
 
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FNtastic said:
Hire more experienced/educated IT and train them with budget in mind. Offer them some incentive regarding their budget throughout the year. And, don't penalize them for necessary replacement purchases or upgrades. If you hired the right people, they'll get you the right equipment for the right price. Even if others might not like the price, it'll be the right equipment. If you can't afford the equipment, that's another story, and that responsibility doesn't lie with the IT department, nor should they be penalized for that (which is what a lot of companies do!). "oh no, we paid out everyone's bonuses, but we can't buy the network equipment for our upgrade!". Either way, that's another topic for another thread.
Click to expand...

I'll derail a bit more: things are the way they are because you cannot expect to 'hire the right people'. You get the people that you get and you make do. Sometimes you get the right people, and sometimes you get something else.

Which is why business process that are focused on actually delivering results separate duties, especially purchasing, by default.
 
OP didn't specifically say if the router was also going to be the edge device for his network. My general advice is get a stand alone pro-sumer or enterprise type firewall appliance as the barrier between the wilds of the Internet and your network. Then get one or more WiFi gizmos that meet your wireless needs. Buying a wifi gizmo becomes simpler if the only thing it will do is serve up wifi. And simpler if you need more then one to cover the house. My firewall has been in service long enough to be on its third consumer grade wifi gizmo.
 
recommendations for a firewall? More on the prosumer side than enterprise side please :)
 
FNtastic said:
You are less likely to adopt issues and vulnerabilities with prosumer and enterprise stuff.
Click to expand...

This statement is completely false. Mostly because a lot of prosumer and enterprise systems require a lot of setup to make them work and to be secure. Out of the box they generally have a lot of holes in them. In addition, someone not experienced may create even more holes when setting them up. They can be a lot more secure, but usually only if the individual has the will and desire to learn how to set them up, or get someone knowledgeable to do it for them. If they aren't willing, these devices aren't really helping them and they are throwing money away.

FNtastic said:
Really shocked to hear there are "network security engineers" out there accepting that "it'll be fine". That's not the level of service or education I expect to pay someone for, nor do I provide that type of recommendation to anyone.
Click to expand...

Really shocked to see such blatant disregard for reality here. It isn't about whether something is "fine", which btw, most these devices are. It is whether the cost/labor involved is worth the risk involved. It is called risk management. If they don't have a lot of risk involved with the systems behind the devices, why do they need so much security? Even so, there are any number of ways they can layer security to make it better. Layering security is far better than spending a lot of money on a single prosumer or enterprise device.

FNtastic said:
Consumer grade has a long history of being more vulnerable. Most times without the owner even knowing they have been hijacked or included in a botnet.
Click to expand...

So do prosumer, so do enterprise.

FNtastic said:
It's also not appropriate to exaggerate my statements. Nowhere did I state anything was "vastly" more secure, although in some cases, you're probably not far off.
Click to expand...

When you say nobody should be spending their money on consumer devices, you are making the claim that prosumer and enterprise are vastly superior. Why would nobody spend money on consumer devices if they weren't?

FNtastic said:
You seemed to attack the security aspect, but not address the other major issue with consumer grade devices. Underpowered/inadequate hardware. I imagine you don't have an argument for that since it's a fact. So, taking ONLY those two things into consideration, my statements are true. That you get more value for your dollar.
Click to expand...

But not all consumer devices are underpowered/inadequate. You get the exact same dichotomy and problems with prosumer/enterprise devices. There are tons of them out there that don't deliver on promises. There are tons that are barely better than consumer devices. That is why he is coming here to get people's opinion and advice. The only problem is instead of listening to the user's requirements, you attack people for listening to him and giving him suggestions based on his needs and effort level.

I will again remind you of the key points in the OPs post:

Operaghost said:
but I am not very savvy when it comes to networking, and I don't have the time to devote to learning how to setup the "pro-sumer" stuff.

So I'm looking for a low cost solution to upgrade to a wireless AC router.

I do want to use the USB for an external HDD, but short of that, I just want solid, low ping Wifi. I only have a 2-3 devices using bandwidth at any given time. Mostly gaming and streaming TV. House is only 48' long, router will be located in basement and Wifi devices used on ground level.

Please advise..
Click to expand...

Next time address the OP if you think his requirements are wrong, stop attacking people trying to help with advice based on the OPs requirements. And stop spreading misinformation as well.
 
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NoOther said:
Neither. I would recommend building your own and using PFSense. You can also get some routers that you can flash with a build that includes PFSense.
Click to expand...

I just picked up an appliance that I'm setting pfSense up on, and while I'd probably make this recommendation myself at some point, I can't say that I'd recommend someone to jump straight to it when they want something that 'just works'.
 
PfSense is overkill, All the added packages just add more holes to hack. Stick with a small router based firewall but if you are feeling more advanced - use a third party Merlin or dd-wrt firmware with an iptables script.
 
Mega6 said:
PfSense is overkill, All the added packages just add more holes to hack. Stick with a small router based firewall but if you are feeling more advanced - use a third party Merlin or dd-wrt firmware with an iptables script.
Click to expand...

Well, my goal with it is to get passive IDS/IPS/QoS working at high linespeeds, potentially 1Gbps if Spectrum will give it to me. I intend to keep my Edgerouter in place if I can doing the basic edge firewalling, routing, and DHCP services. I may move VPN services from the Edgerouter to pfSense if I feel that I can do that securely.

Further on I'd like to set up DMZ and application firewalling so that I can experiment with exposing services across the WAN.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Well, my goal with it is to get passive IDS/IPS/QoS working at high linespeeds, potentially 1Gbps if Spectrum will give it to me. I intend to keep my Edgerouter in place if I can doing the basic edge firewalling, routing, and DHCP services. I may move VPN services from the Edgerouter to pfSense if I feel that I can do that securely.

Further on I'd like to set up DMZ and application firewalling so that I can experiment with exposing services across the WAN.
Click to expand...

Have fun, didn't know it was your thread and about your setup.

My personal experience is as I stated. My Pfsense got hacked to shit. An iptables script worked much better. If you really considering Pfsense, I would suggest going enterprise level all the way and avoid Pfsense altogether.
 
Mega6 said:
Have fun, didn't know it was your thread and about your setup.
Click to expand...

It's not, I'm using my setup to present an example of a middle ground.

Mega6 said:
My personal experience is as I stated. My Pfsense got hacked to shit. An iptables script worked much better. If you really considering Pfsense, I would suggest going enterprise level all the way and avoid Pfsense altogether.
Click to expand...

...and this is why I shared it. I intend to have pfSense for its monitoring, filtering, and queueing abilities, not as an edge device.
 
Operaghost said:
So it's time to finally get rid of my Wireless G router haha!

I know these consumer grade routers are frowned upon, but I am not very savvy when it comes to networking, and I don't have the time to devote to learning how to setup the "pro-sumer" stuff.

So I'm looking for a low cost solution to upgrade to a wireless AC router.

These are the two I'm looking at,

Asus RT-ACRH13
https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Band-Super-Fast-Gigabit-MU-MIMO-RT-ACRH13/dp/B01LXL1AR8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1533984681&sr=8-3&keywords=ac+wifi+router&th=1

vs.

TP-Link Archer C1200
https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC12...qid=1533984681&sr=8-5&keywords=ac+wifi+router

I do want to use the USB for an external HDD, but short of that, I just want solid, low ping Wifi. I only have a 2-3 devices using bandwidth at any given time. Mostly gaming and streaming TV. House is only 48' long, router will be located in basement and Wifi devices used on ground level.

Please advise..
Click to expand...

I already chimed in with the router I just bought, but to add, the only setup required was updating the firmware (one click, no need to go to website just open router page and click update firmware) and change wireless ssid and password. That's it. Also, my router is in the basement of a 2 story (including finished basement) 5k Sq ft house. By putting the dst on the porch which is somewhere in the middle of the house on upper level, I'm getting 90+ mbps from every room in the house. We run 15+ devices including computers, phones, streaming devices, and game consoles.
 
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I love how this thread went exactly as I said it would back on Saturday. Classic.
 
I'm not going to add anymore to this thread in hopes that it gets refocused for OP.
I invite NoOther and anyone interested in that debate to take this conversation here https://hardforum.com/threads/discussion-best-bang-for-your-buck.1966140/ The question about "best bang for the buck" is what I would like to answer for everyone. And, I'm getting out of here before I contribute anymore to derailment.
Good luck OP! And, I apologize that I was active in derailing your thread.
 
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