discussing the warez problem

[Ravenrex]

Not to get back on topic or anything, but I do know one bit of 'warez-ing' that I'll be engaging in with Doom3 if necessary. If after I buy my copy of D3, get it home and installed and find that when I go to launch the program it bitches about having CD emulation software installed and won't run I'll be looking for a nocd faster than a whore running after a bus full of sailors. From another thread here it looks as though there is some retarded form of copy protection that looks for Alcohol120% or programs like it and doesn't want to play nice with it. Once again, just fucking with their legitimate customers and not doing anything to actually prevent piracy.

 

[cuemasterfl]

This whole discussion is pointless. At the end of the day, the people who buy games will still buy them, and the pirates will still pirate. No one's mind is going to be changed.

 

[RancidWAnnaRIot]

Teach kids at an early age, the value of morality and ethics, and most imporantly, a sense of self-respect derived from personal honor. People need to learn that there are ideals higher than money and infinitely more valuable.

true.... true

 

[doh-nut]

The law is a very flexible thing. it changes with each case. What was thought to be legal one day, could be illegal the next.

Who would you rather have the rights, us, or the corporations?

within the realm of computer software, i think MS and corps should do whatever they have to do to not get ripped off. the only thing you have to fear is if you have any illegal content on your computer. otherwise who cares?

 

[PiratePowWow]

wrong and right, meh.

I may not be as all knowing or infinitely intelligent (but I bet I'm better looking) as Ice Czar, but I think that if ID spent all their time tracking down the thousands of people pirating their software all over the earth they would probably go bankrupt and not finish their next game in time. Though I really have no idea.

I, like many people, download the demo of a game, play the game at a friend's house, rent it, or if I can do none of those, I will indeed DL a pirated version of the game before I decide to buy.

Why do I do this? Bad experiences. Shogun Total War was not worth my $44 and I am sad that my money helped them to create the sequel to it and fool some other people. Oh well, next time I'll try before I buy.

What about games that you like but think are overpriced? This is where things become blurry for me. Truly, I think the right thing to do is keep the pirated version of the game and send the developer the amount of money you think is right. This system works for God, though I don't know if we humans can manage it. Pat yourself on the back for giving the developer the credit they deserve.

What about games you pirated but found out you didn't like and so you won't buy the game? Pat yourself on the back for not supporting games and game developers you don't like.

We're in a quite a pickle with game pirating, one reason pirating occurs is because we cannot return a game we don't like, yet the reason we can't return games is because you could buy it, pirate it, and then return it.

I wish games were cheaper, like the cream of the crop games were no more than $30 ever. Really good games cost $20-$25 and such.

Though I doubt that will ever happen, I think we are just going to follow a natural path of pirating / pricing regardless of any group's ideals or any legislature. The rise of technology just kind of works that way. When developers start making too much money piraters are there to bring them back down to earth. When developers aren't making enough money to survive, the good samaritan will be there to support them. If there become too few good samaritans, I guess that just means the developers weren't that good. When there are too many good samaritans, the good samaritans will be taken advantage of by the developers.

So, is it a natural flow we have here? IDK, I just kind of threw that out there.

 

[NeghVar]

If a game has excellent ratings and friends say its excellent, then I'll try the demo if one is provided and then decide. Thing is that everyone has different opinions and providing a demo helps people decide to buy it or not even if it does have a high price. The problem though is when they don't provide a demo for a game that is very expensive and has mixed reviews. Thats when people begin to concider downloading it before buying. Everyone hates throwing away $50.
Situations like that (as long as you erase if hate and buy if like) and games you just can't find anymore are one's that IMO are justified. It especially true for games that are no longer sold, supported, manufactured or commercially exploitable and can't even be found at used software places, DL is the only option left
As for Doom 3, I'm just going to buy it since just about everyone will have it.
The one thing that REALLY bothers me though is having to pay $50 for the software of an MMORPG and then be paying the monthly fee to play.

The law is the law. The laws are technicalities. Technicality vs. Reality.


As for DRM, they SAY they have their specific reasons for security. They said the same thing about the DMCA which they now admitt has been (ab)used in ways they never intended. If they exploit the full potentials of DRM, it will anger so many people that the people will likely seek cracks and hacks to gain full access to their legally purchased media. Which will require circumventing the security which then violates the DMCA. So, the way I see it, is the publishers are indirectly promoting these illegal activities. The more they lock down the media, the more people will try to break the lock.

 

[TekieB]

This whole discussion is pointless. At the end of the day, the people who buy games will still buy them, and the pirates will still pirate. No one's mind is going to be changed.

That is the mindset that keeps people from changeing it.

 

[meanmodda[H]]

I reckon there is very little difference between mp3's and gamez as far piracy is concerned , sadly the collective IQ of the RIAA is lower then a single texture artists hence lawyers are running the show. I reckon bring in the shareware system where we get the third of the game free in say sequental downloads instead of one pissy level , that way everyone gets great entertainment end at the end they might be far more willing to part with cash then having to deal with a buggy and sometimes extremely short demo.

ps : Carmack DOES deserve another Ferrari , he could have become a lawyer like people with similar IQ's and go around representing assholes like the Riaa instead of making kickass software.

 

[Qwertyman]

i think they think of it this way a movie at least in nyc cost about 10 bucks so you can either see 5 movies or buy one game because it is "like" a movie except ur a part of it.

 

[cuemasterfl]

That is the mindset that keeps people from changeing it.

It's true though. People's minds will never be changed.

 

[RagingSamster]

I buy games, I have half a clue, I hear what the buzz is. Doom III is a definate buy. Along with DiabloII, BF1942, Halo, UT (all versions) the games I buy I like. I have not bought a bum game yet (MS Flight Sim 2002Pro is close but I still like it)

When you buy games you support both developers and yourself. So many have given up that feeling of being right with one's self. They just blow off the feeling of being a piece of %$^$ thief that steals small change. Regaining or maintaining your honor is not that hard, and when you apply the skill to other areas of your life, you will become a much better person. Your choice - your gain/loss

You that do not want to change will find this post humorous. Those who try not to harm themselves or other people with their actions know I speak the truth.

 

[ilmickeyli]

here's how i see it..
i was simply too young to purchase Doom I / II (i was what.. 10-12?? lol dont remember what days) ... Now that I am old and employed, supporting iD financially is the least I can do..

 

[Qwestman]

Well I have read some very good arguments here and now I have a better idea of different sides of the pirate issue. I am a member of a online music store where I can buy songs for .99 each. Sure I could get the songs another way, but I feel good paying for them. This way I can make my own CD's for my personal use. When it comes to games, I like playing demos to see how they are and how they will perfom on my system. I have played some demos where it was obvious that I would need to upgrade my hardware to play it so that has convinced me on a few occasions to do so. Doom 3 will have a demo someday, but as we all know, they are releasing the demo AFTER the game is out in the marketplace. A few other recent games have done the same thing.
Why do you think software companies release demos after the main game is gold and out the doors?
I am against pirating, I think it's bad for the industry. Maybe that is why we are paying $55 for the game instead of $50 or less. Maybe the publishers are charging more these days because they know and figure that thier product will be pirated so they are just trying to recoup some losses. Who knows what motivates higher prices but either way, game publishers know people will pay a higher price, just not everyone will pay. And think about this, what if every copy was bought legally? How much cash would these companies have? Would they put some of that back into developing the next greatest thing? I would hope so. Let's see how this plays out. I would like to know what ID is doing about this regarding Doom 3, and I would like an offical statement from them on how they feel about pirates in general.

 

[TekieB]

Just one more thought. How is it that all the new ESPN sports games are $20 each? They still have people making them. Ane those people have familys to supports.

I guess it's kidna like how an artist actaully only sees like $1.50 of the $17 cd

 

[douglas25]

Hypothetically 98% of all the software I own privately is pirated and I do NOT resale any of it. Hypothetically, Private use only.

Hypothetically, I did preorder Doom 3, but today I downloaded it. Do I care? Hypothetically, Nope, because in the profession I work in, I influence the purchase of hundred of thousands worth of software.Hypothetically, I have pushed my company to sign a volume license (enterprise agreement) with Microsoft yearly cost is about $200K and maintain about $100k worth of yearly "software maintainence." with other companies.

Hypothetically, Screm Em

Hypothetically, Which all my experience with this, I have learned the following...

Hypothetically, Software vendors and software developers do NOT care how well their product works. Hypothetically, They do NOT care if their product has a negative impact on your business. Hypothetically, The only thing they care about is the purchase orders for more of their product. Hypothetically, Sadly, it's the sales rep that is always calling you when you are busy or stress out to push their shitty product on you.

Hypothetically, Case in point, I had one vendor drop "already reduced" price by 50% in week by me just constantly telling the guy he is calling at a really bad time or by acting completely not interested. Hypothetically, So, there is a HUGE mark up on your typical software product that the developer and vendors can play with.

Hypothetically, Oh! You need immediate support due to a bug in our software that we know about? Just upgrade your support contract to the gold verstion and we will be more than glad to help.

Hypothetically, Sadly, it's the law of the land.

Hypothetically, So, when I save myself a few hundred dollars a year at home, I don't feel so bad.

Hypothetically, When the software companies start to deliver solid products and support, I won't feel so bad about whipping out the Visa.

Hypothetically, Bitter subject with me. Sorry.

Hypothetically...

 

[Ice Czar]

I will indeed DL a pirated version of the game .

98% of all the software I own privately is pirated .

I guess the Major is right its just impossible for people to avoid confession when discussing this subject

too bad, he spelled out the parameters quite succinctly, this is now officially locked

(but I bet I'm better looking) as Ice Czar

well that aint hard Im 41
but Id have given you a run for your money
when I was young and dumb

 

[Ice Czar]

by request, and since im willing to supervise this
(read Im now awake again more or less, the caffine IV begining to take effect)
this thread is reopened, but beware the following

Threads concerning warez are allowed as long as they don't cross the line and get into the areas where members begin to give their personal dealings with obtaining warez because they feel that the high price justifies the theft of someone's hard work. This is when the hammer falls on the topic and members get the axe. I have yet to see a thread on warez where the it wasn't closed and someone banned. It's something that is an important topic for discussion, but there seems to be no way of having a discussion without confessions of having or obtaining warez which is against our rules

It's not blurry at all according to the forum rules, it is stealing plain and simple which makes it against the forum regardless what justification you have for downloading a game, playing it and not paying for it. Theft is theft whether it is intellectual property or driving off from a self service without paying for your gas, especially in the view of this forum. I hope that is less blurry to you now.

while confession might be good for the soul, its also a dandy way to burn up slack in your user notes, above are the parameters for discussion, take heed

there is a word in the English language
its hypothetical (or hypothetically, hypothesis)


employ it often

 

[MemoryInAGarden]

Just one more thought. How is it that all the new ESPN sports games are $20 each? They still have people making them. Ane those people have familys to supports.

I guess it's kidna like how an artist actaully only sees like $1.50 of the $17 cd

While I do get your point, ID has been working on this for who knows how long, and they do have a right to their $55. Besides, if ID says jump, people just as how high. You can't blame them for exploiting the situation

 

[RagingSamster]

by request, and since im willing to supervise this
(read Im now awake again more or less, the caffine IV begining to take effect)
this thread is reopened, but beware the following

Ice Czar is such a softie!

it has actually been fun watching the goings on here the past couple of days, you have done an excellent job of keeping the peace I.C. we all appreciate it!

 

[douglas25]

I edited my post above to reflect today's favorite word - "Hypothetically". Thanks for reopening this thread.

 

[enm4r]

Well I'm glad I played it before purchasing it. If I would have gone off hype alone I would have wasted $55. I played it even less than I would have played a demo had one been released. That was all I needed to determine that it wasn't for me.

 

[[Tripod]MajorPayne]

IRT to douglas:

Hypothetically- no one really cares.

But maybe we do, it's all Hypothetical, remember.

 

[kronchev]

Well I'm glad I played it before purchasing it. If I would have gone off hype alone I would have wasted $55. I played it even less than I would have played a demo had one been released. That was all I needed to determine that it wasn't for me.

see, now because of warez, a company is out $55!

 

[Ice Czar]

Hypothetically speaking
any hypothetical discussion has to bear a reasonable basis of abstractness
(the quality of being considered apart from a specific instance or object)
its not just a magic word that protects one from retribution

its heartening to see the word of the day adopted with such vigor
however it needs to be employed in a believable context

substitue they or them for I or we
ect

 

[kronchev]

Hypothetically speaking
any hypothetical discussion has to bear a reasonable basis of abstractness
(the quality of being considered apart from a specific instance or object)
its not just a magic word that protects one from retribution

its heartening to see the word of the day adopted with such vigor
however it needs to be employed in a believable context

i dont think that had any point at all

 

[[BB] Rick James]

I think warez would be cut down a bit if demo's were released first. Good example is Doom3.

 

[CodeWaste]

Yay, I'm glad the thread was re opened. I think that it was really starting to take the shape of a meaningful discssussion with many links for all to see.

Thanks a lot Ice Czar!!!

 

[Ice Czar]

i dont think that had any point at all

<note to self> get an interview as a political speech writer </note to self>

 

[kronchev]

I think warez would be cut down a bit if demo's were released first. Good example is Doom3.

may I expand that?

I think that justifiable warez will be cut down if companies release GOOD demos first. perfect example is XIII. I played the demo and thought it was cool. rented it for xbox (before making any final purchases), decided the full version wasnt my bag of tea. of course, you cant rent PC games, so thats a moot point, but a better demo (i played the demo on PC) wouldve helped. somehow.

 

[CodeWaste]

justifiable warez

ain't that phrase a can of worms

 

[kronchev]

ain't that phrase a can of worms

quote-unquote justifiable

downloading to try it out

 

[Ice Czar]

justifiable warez

ain't that phrase a can of worms

but potentially handy in the context of this thread
in that if it is accepted as warez adopted (with some misguided) justification
whatever that might be, it servers a very descriptive role, as opposed to having to type it out and defend its use again and again

 

[[BB] Rick James]

may I expand that?

I think that justifiable warez will be cut down if companies release GOOD demos first. perfect example is XIII. I played the demo and thought it was cool. rented it for xbox (before making any final purchases), decided the full version wasnt my bag of tea. of course, you cant rent PC games, so thats a moot point, but a better demo (i played the demo on PC) wouldve helped. somehow.

Well if the compnay releases a shitty demo then no would buy their game; so really it would be up to them to do it and release the demo. I think Doom3 in the end would have made more money by releaseing a demo. I bet for Doom3 it would have cut the warez downloading in half. A majority of the people downloading it now are just doing so for a preview. Some will keep the full version and never bother to buy the game yes; but if the demo would have been out there those that are not going to bother buying the game since they already have it might go and do so if the demo were released and that is what they had downloaded.

 

[kronchev]

but potentially handy in the context of this thread
in that if it is accepted as warez adopted (with some misguided) justification
whatever that might be

the misguided justification being, i'll play it, if i like it, ill buy it, if i dont, ill delete it

 

[[BB] Rick James]

quote-unquote justifiable

downloading to try it out

Honestly I don't see that there is anything wrong with downloading the full game and then buying it. NO one is out anything. The problem lies when someone downloads it and then never buys it.

downloading the full game and then buying it is the same as buying it and then downloading the full game. Both are a wash.

 

[Ice Czar]

Honestly I don't see that there is anything wrong with downloading the full game and then buying it. NO one is out anything. The problem lies when someone downloads it and then never buys it.

downloading the full game and then buying it is the same as buying it and then downloading the full game. Both are a wash.

from one viewpoint
another would be that its horribly damaging as the P2P networks are monitored
and estimates employed for loss of revenue from piracy (the assumption being once aquired its retained)
thus used as a justification for furthering encroachment on personal liberites

 

[bipolar]

I am personally very anti-warez, but I think there is a smidgen of middle ground. My argument can be summed up in three words: Star Wars: Rebellion.

I was so hyped up for that game. The previews made it sound phenomenal (but, don't they all? ) All the descriptions made it sound like a GOTY contender. I awaited the street date all a-quiver, and though there was no demo, I wasn't put off in the least. Picked it up that day, installed, and was face to face with the worst interface ever designed. I couldn't figure out how to start a new game, let alone do anything once the game was actually started. And, then the ne plus ultra: At 99% of retailers, an open box game can NOT be returned.

If one were to buy, say, a cordless phone and it didn't work, one could return it. If one purchased a car and two cylinders did not fire, though they were advertised as working perfectly, one could return it under the lemon law. There is no such protection for games, unfortunately.

So, the hypothetical middle ground: If there is a game and it does not have a demo, hypothetically it would be acceptable, imo, to download the game and try it out. If one liked it, one should then purchase the game post-haste. If one doesn't like it, one must delete it from one's computer. One can *not* keep it on one's hard drive with the rationalization: "Oh, I don't like it enough to buy it, but I'll keep it to play once in a while". Nope, one either likes it enough to have it, or does not like it enough to keep it installed.

The one other (hypothetical) exception: Many old games are no longer available via retail channels. They may be available on the secondhand market, but the publisher and developer sees no money when one buys a copy of Seven Cities of Gold off of ebay. In this situation, hypothetically I would have no moral qualms about someone downloading this game. If this hypothetical person should later see this game in the bargain bin or $9.99 jewel case edition at CompUSA, they should purchase the game.

 

[emorphien]

There is no "justified" about it. Warez is illegal, because it's STEALING. If it feels like "cracking" or whatever, it's still illegal. It is an issue that, unfortunately, no one can do a whole lot about. It's like speeding. Lots of people do it, and police are forced to concentrate only on the worst offenders. You might not get caught, but it's still stealing something that lots of highly educated people put years of work and millions of dollars of R & D into.

^
|
|
This statement came form a 15 year old (Me). I was brought up being told that illegal is illegal, and there is no justified about it.

Have a nice day.

While I don't support stealing someones hard work, I can see the sense that some people feel it's rebelling against a system. Similar to the RIAA or Cable companies, if you overcharge for a product people are going to find ways to get it for free because the government does nothing to keep the companies in check.

Illegal is illegal, but you're naive to believe that the companies are always playing fair.

I fail to see the fun in playing stolen games because in many cases you can't play online from what I understand, and that's where all the fun in many games is. I have however tried games before buying them because friends have bought it and have it on their machines. Just play it for 10 minutes on a friends computer so you know if you will like it.

All that said, a return policy is badly needed. Nevermind the fact that there is no protection against the consumer in terms of unnecessary price hiking, but there's nothing to protect the consumer from buying crappy software. How do you know a new version of a certain piece of software might just have some unforseeable incompatibility with your hardware? You can't return it. That's a pretty shitty deal and really needs to be looked at for a policy change.

 

[M1ster_R0gers]

I can't believe some of the filth some of the people here are saying. I also can't believe they believe their own words. They will say anything to accept what they do as right.

"I think alot of you guys are missing a point. There are a lot of market leaders today because of warez. How many of you here have some sort of professional graphics program? How many of you auctually paid the $500-$700 for it?

People like adobe, corel, MS, IBM could care less about the 14 year old with his new cracked Photoshop 7. They like the fact that some 15 year old student is using a hacked copy of their product to to their homework and spreadsheets.

The reason for this is that they more than make up for it with business liscensing. It also allows for the next generation who sure as hell cant pay for it to start learning it young, so that when they get to the age that they are entering the workforce, they have already had 5-10 years experience with the products.

Its a nasty drag back to reality, but do you think that microsoft would rather someone run a hacked version of office 2000 or open office? Not chasing down every Redbeard and Pegleg has kept Photoshop, MS Office, and a few other longtime vendors the industry standard for the past 10 years."


Yeah, and thats why they go after 15 year olds. If they allowed everyone to pirate, what would happen? It would give the idea that it's okay.

No, they don't like it when you steal. Stop thinking that your wrong is right.

Let me spell things out for you:

At work, I have 3 registered site liscence versions of office 97, 2000, and office XP that I am the sole user of. For operating systems I have 5 NT 4.0, 1 windows 2000, 1 windows XP, and 2 liscences of solaris 2.7. I also have 5 registered versions of acrobat 4.0, 2 versions of acrobat 5.0, acrobat 6.0 professional, illustrator 10, photoshop 7.0, photoshop 4.0 and a bunch of industry specfic software that costs 4 thousand to 10 thousand a crack that is used only by me.

In order to better integrate the software I use at work I frequently work at home. The simple "justificatoin" you are insinuating belies in the fact that if another sofware vendor steps in and offers a better price, people in my field will not "jump ship".

The "other than games crowd" does business a little different. It is not "filth", moreso sound business sense. It is something thats not usually discussed in an open format as it is being here.

As I said before, things are not soundly black and white, its undiscussed common knowledge.

 

[[BB] Rick James]

from one viewpoint
another would be that its horribly damaging as the P2P networks are monitored
and estimates employed for loss of revenue from piracy (the assumption being once aquired its retained)
thus used as a justification for furthering encroachment on personal liberites

I guess I never looked at it that way. Good point. I guess downloading warez even though you have the intention of buying still does have a negative effect; not at the company level but the piracy level.