Developer: “There Is Absolutely No Adoption for the Windows Store”

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, May 6, 2018.

  1. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,585
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Lets get real here, sometimes people just have a soap box, or have a personal issue and they try to rationalize their hate for something and to your credit [H] has a lot of very intelligent very strong willed people but do you really think you are representative of the millions of lay persons and soccer moms who drive these trends?

    Focus should be sound and have real meaning.
    None of the reasons in this list are meaningful so why argue about them?
    The average windows user does not know or care if UWP has better or worse performance for the vast majority of applications. Its not an issue.
    Even if UWP had worse performance with optimizations it would get better. But clearly as the PC master race has seen developers do not care to optimize. Now days the vast majority of applications on all platforms are not optimized cause people don't care they buy and use the products anyway so its not worth the trouble to developers. Time is better spent porting to more platforms unless performance is crippling.
    No one cares that much about privacy otherwise Android and iOS wouldn't be so popular. And Linux never goes anywhere. Privacy nuts are a niche group, the kind that will actually stop using something. Every individual company out there can be spying on you and you don't even know so avoiding the store isn't saving you anyway, with store apps they actually have the option of giving you control like android does.
    Developers will go where the money and people are regardless of anything.
    All possible advantages of UWP are meaningless to the average consumer.

    So then it comes down to really simple realities. And what MS can do about it. MS can cut the price and revenue share all they want but no developer is going to code for UWP unless their is a significant audience to make money on and it outweighs the development costs. The cut that a company gets is a small fry compared to the development costs so when you can save all that money by just developing for win32 the question the developer asks is, does going to UWP increase my sales due to its easy access and install enough to get an ROI on sales over just sticking with win32.

    Right now neither of those are true mostly because coding for UWP means you give up access to hundreds of millions of windows 7 users. If you code for win32 then your app will work on windows 10 and 8, and 7 and probably even XP. So why on earth would you waste your time coding for UWP.

    As I have said so many times before MS needs to launch the store for windows 7. Because their amazing plan to get everyone to windows 10 was just not possible it was a pipe dream regardless of privacy issues look at how hard it was to get people off XP even when 7 released which people claim to love.

    No matter what MS decides or says even if they will not put the store on 7, at the very least, the very simplest most strait forward thing they can do is lead by example and get all office apps running in UWP in the store. If they wont even do that themselves why would any developer bother when the company that makes the store wont even go all in on their own product? MS inherently admits by their own actions that they are not dedicated to their own store.
     
  2. Staples

    Staples [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,849
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    MS hardly has a monopoly like they did 15 years ago.

    But when it comes to Steam or Amazon, people are only cheering on their growth when they are practically monopolies as it is.

    As for me, I'd rather have desktop versions of apps so I download them from their website. I'd use the MS Store if they offered 32 bit apps.
     
  3. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    10,867
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Your view is too narrow. Image Windows becoming a virtual storefront.
    Before you get to your Amazon, Facebook etc. account you can be sold a better deal by MS.

    A global retail monopoly? There are over 1 billion windows users. 1 in 8 people will have an MS store account.
    That's not one of the options, it will be the only option.
     
  4. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    10,874
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Not at all, my view is completely wide open. Having other options are always a good thing and I am not the type of person who has the tin foil hat on. (You may or may not be either but, I do not agree with your assessment, at all.) The fact that there are other options available is always a good thing, even in the world of Microsoft. I have seen no evidence of what some claim to be a Microsoft trying to get everyone locked permanently into a walled garden.
     
  5. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    It's not an either or situation. UWP apps by design don't have full access to Win32, things like COM extensions are a big no no now. By design they run in a low security context. This can work for plenty of apps but not all of them.
     
  6. Anemone

    Anemone Gawd

    Messages:
    892
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    If it's available in the store I get it there first. Auto updates and easy recovery in case of reset are key benefits to me. The DEV that is the focus of the article is developing streaming apps to Chrome sticks - not exactly a big item with a Windows user base. I don't think his experience speaks of the whole trend. I'm presently uninstalling iTunes off the desktop version and over to the store version. So even as apps switch I do as well.
     
    jardows and Trimlock like this.
  7. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,117
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Which would be 150$ more by the end of the second year than what i paid 8years ago (home and student version i think was 90$). The 5 licenses crap is meaningless value for me, and i am sure it would be for most households, there is only one computer in the house that would take advantage of office. Now the cloud storage at 1tb sounds fairky good, even better if you can merge the licenses into more storage for one account, plus if the dont decide to just cut it whenever.
     
    naib likes this.
  8. Grimlaking

    Grimlaking 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,912
    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Well as a non student non discount older it would cost me what 400 dollars for one license. This way I get 5 it's constantly updated, I get the storage and can edit files on my laptop, PC, and phone and have access to the same updated documents across the board. My wife and my kid in college get all of this as well with independent cloud storage as well. For me it's a win all around. I could see it being less than that for others.
     
  9. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,585
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Then MS needs to solve all the problems, porting their own applications is a good way to get moving on that.
     
  10. CaptNumbNutz

    CaptNumbNutz Bulls[H]it Master

    Messages:
    20,170
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Wait wait wait...

    There's a windows app store? Is that what that shopping bag looking icon was that I removed 2 seconds after install? I thought the app store was google.com where I download everything else. :ROFLMAO:

    Microsoft is over a decade late to the party. And now that they practically give away Win10 for free as it is by leaving the old Win7/Win8 free upgrade path open, I haven't given MS a dime since I bought Win7 in 2010.
     
  11. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,238
    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Har har har, what timing on an update today...

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/07/microsoft-hopes-money-will-entice-more-developers/

    "....Today's the first day of Build, Microsoft's developer conference, so what better time than to announce a huge incentive to attract even more developers? The software giant has just announced that starting later this year, all consumer apps (except games) sold in the Microsoft Store will ship a whopping 95 percent of the revenue earned from app and in-app purchases to the developer....."


    Well, I guess I was right after all eh? Apparently MS realizes a 30% cut isn't worth what their market currently offers. Would you like any condiments to go with your socks?
     
  12. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I posted this yesterday: https://hardforum.com/threads/devel...-windows-store.1959992/page-2#post-1043619608

    The Microsoft Store needs a LOT of work and a lot more apps. But to say that there's nothing of value there for the nearly 700 million Windows 10 users out there I don' think is correct either. In any case there is a certain amount of inevitability here. Windows 7, it's going to be around in large numbers but it's support is coming to an end and 7's support and user base are going to degrade, slowly but surely. And 8.1 just never made enough of dent. At some point there's just going to be enough Windows 10 users who have the Store right their on their machines and 7 and 8.1 will have aged out to make the Store a viable distribution system. But yeah, lots more needs to be done.

    It is interesting that this doesn't apply to games which I find curious but two possibilities come to mind. Games are doing better than other apps or Microsoft is trying to not step on Steam's toes. It seems odd that games, which the Store could use a lot more of and which really would help the Store take off, aren't part of this.
     
  13. cbutters

    cbutters Gawd

    Messages:
    512
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Windows store should just sell freaking conventional "win32" apps in their store and help people manage their licensing through it. I'd buy programs off of there if it was the "full featured" version, helped me to reinstall it easily on a new computer and give back to the original developers. This is exactly what steam does... Windows store could be a "steam" for conventional desktop apps instead of a walled garden of bullshit barebones apps coded on a whim just to say they have a "Windows Store" app.

    On another note; The only good thing about UWP apps was when "slide in from the edges of the screen" navigation still worked; Not a great desktop option, but for tablets it was actually a really slick interface. They finally caved and made all the interface elements more conventional; but now there is nothing good about UWP apps.

    P.S. This post is opinion and based on my limited experience with windows store over the last few years. I really haven't researched it in depth so sorry if any of my information is wrong.
     
  14. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,487
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    The point to a store like that is for relatively open development and distribution of apps. With such a barrier gone, you could conceivably offer competing apps to office. Microsoft will never want you to outshine their Office and on their platform. Because of that UWP is always be hobbled.
     
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    There are full featured Win32 apps in the Microsoft Store, the Affinity suite is there and that's considered one of the best in class especially for the price. Works just the same as the Win32 but it uses the Appx packing mechanism, like all store apps and not conventional installers. There's even open source stuff out there, Krita, MuseScore, paint.Net, etc. that aren't any different from the conventional Win32 installer versions. Not nearly enough out there of course, and it can take some effort to retrofit and app for the Appx install and sandboxing, but it's a much cleaner way that a normal Win32 install.
     
  16. cbutters

    cbutters Gawd

    Messages:
    512
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Good to hear; you can see how microsoft has scared most people away from the store in general so that we don't even realize these options exist... Does it identify somehow when browsing the store if it is a win32 or uwp app?
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  17. raz-0

    raz-0 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,540
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2003
    It won't matter. The windows store is fubar. You ahve to look at the use cases.

    At the pull quote states, for a lot of folks, windows is a substrate for their web browser and some file storage. Not a good customer.

    Then you have gamers. Well steam beat them there in additon to the fact games for windows live basically took a shit in gamers living room and then set it on fire. So, not a good customer source there.

    People mention office, but that's a lot of business and EDU users for the most part, and windows store is anathema to the process of desktop deployment and management. And for those small businesses that need simpler solutions, office 365 for business takes care of the office suite needs at a very reasonable price for small shops. So office aint saving the day.

    Designers? Nope adobe has it's cloud, and you just aren't going to manage your autodesk products via windows store. That shit is too expensive. And right there you have lost a huge portion of that crowd.

    Developers and admins? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Well mostly. It's a very convenient place to get the officially supported linux environments that run on windows, which is convenient. But I'm not getting my VS, or VS code or even powershell modules via the store. MS ins't pushing them that way.

    So you are left with the random shit demographic. Which isn't like... an actual thing.
     
    odditory likes this.
  18. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Things just a lot more interesting here. Was watching Build and there's now going to be a new app packaging method, MSIX. They can in installed from the Store, stand alone like a normal MSI and get this, even on Windows 7. They mentioned 7 by name but I would assume this applies to Windows 8.1. And with the revenue sharing scheme, if you link to the Store from your on web site, the dev gets 95% of the revenue, excludes games for some reason, 85% if purchased directly from the Store. That's getting to the point that if someone else is handling the distribution, updating a billing, why do it yourself?

    The other thing I think that's big is the ability to now incorporate UWP UI in Win32, WPF and .NET apps. As I mentioned before UWP is just an API and now it's something that anyone can use in any kind of app and it has nothing to do with the Store.
     
  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Microsoft's plans and messaging over the years with the Store starting Windows 8 have been inconsistent and bad. It's really just becoming a distribution platform and Win32 isn't going anywhere, indeed by allowing UWP UI APIs in any app, that's just extending the life and usefulness of Win32.

    The store doesn't identify Win32 or UWP, for a typical consumer that doesn't mean anything. But it does show platform, PC, phone, hub, HoloLens. With the changes Microsoft is making, it looks like the store is going to be much more viable for developers, especially if they can take the same deployment package and use it even on older versions of Windows and the Store.
     
  20. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,181
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Well I'll just come right out and say it... its a trap. lol

    Really people like to use the term walled garden, I prefer gated zoo. Why do it yourself if someone else will do it for you cheaply ? Why don't the animals just walk into the zoo ? I mean if all your needs are tended to why do it yourself right ? Ok terrible analogy likely... still there is something to be said for freedom. There is no version where MS pulls off an actual windows software garden where developers end up happy. Their latest we'll do it cheap ploy is transparent, and more then a little desperate.
     
  21. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    This MSIX packaging model looks to be the complete opposite of a walled garden though. An MSIX can distributed through the MS Store, any other Store, installed stand alone and can even be installed on Windows 7 if it's just legacy Win32/.NET/WPF code. This looks to be a good thing, similar to Linux snaps.
     
  22. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,181
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Well they open sourced it which is a good first move. I am not saying its a move in the wrong direction. MS needs to get the masses off the silly idea of running downloaded .exe files to install software. (for the record I'm not a fan of snap and hope it dies in a fire. Snap is a Ubuntu thing. Flatpak is superior, still I find the entire idea a bit overrated in general) I take your point though. If MS is really planning to offer a better free to use installer experience that is capable of tying things like updating into their OS at install... then good on them and hopefully it works out.

    I'm a Linux guy obviously, I get that MS won't ever be able to turn windows into a decent Linux distro style OS. Still I do believe the main issue is their store just feels greed fueled to most. I do believe they should expand their store and rename it from the terrible "windows store" name to "Windows software management" build an actual official MS windows software repository... curate it themselves. (FOR FREE to users and developers) In a perfect world they would have 2 official repositories Free and Non-free. I know that sounds very linuxy but that isn't a bad thing. Charge developers your 5-10% to be included in the official non-free repository. At that point they could use this new open source MSIX package format to hook into "WSM" for updates... and if its not a package included in the Official repositories, warn people in BIG bold Pop ups all you want that they are using unofficial software. (if they are trying to install versions older then what is in the repositories... ask them if they want the repo version instead... there are many end user advantages as far as taking care of grandma and grandpa types)

    Windows biggest security flaw has always been the software install process... the quicker they get the average users off the Google>Software Company Site>Downloads crap the better for all windows users.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  23. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    There's just a whole lot of just wrong info about the Store. Even now, it's not a walled garden, there are Win32 apps there that are distributed from other sources, even open source Win32 apps and UWPs don't have to be distributed by the store. UWP is just a set of APIs and now much of UI capabilities of UWP are going accessible to older stacks, Win32/.NET/WPF. MSIX just makes installs cleaner and safer and not even tied to Windows 10. And again, they don't have to go through the Store.

    For all of the Windows 10 bashing, bashing something like MSIX is going overboard. Not saying you, just with all of bad info in this thread, getting some of the basic facts is kind of necessary to actually talk about the things in question rather than things that don't even exist.
     
  24. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,181
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Despite what the Store is or what MS claims they want it to be. No one trusts them at ALL... that is 99% of the issue isn't it ? Even if the store offers a ton of Open source installs no one trusts them cause they come from something called the "Windows Store" Marketing Fail >.< I don't disagree with you I don't think the store is pure evil. Again I'm a linux guy consolidated repository ideas are great. Just no one trusts MS (with cause). The first thing they need to do is drop that terrible name. The windows store should have been a windows feature. (Windows Software Manager/Management or some such name) That would have went a lot further in explaining to end users what the idea was/is. As long as they insist in calling it a store most people are going to continue ignoring it or shutting it off if they know how.
     
  25. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I'm more inclined however to believe in the reality and the facts than FUD that's categorically wrong. Plus I have no idea how people that don't even use the Store are making judgments about it. I'm not saying there aren't problems with the Store but at least understand what UWP is versus the Store before making going off on this stuff. Plus the fact that many people here didn't even know that Win32 apps are in the Store, that's amazing for people to not know such basic stuff while going off on wild tangents.
     
    ManofGod likes this.
  26. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,181
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Not sure what your on about. I'm aware there are win32 apps in the store.. .and I believe I have a good handle on what UWP is and isn't. I still think the store isn't very well done.

    You wanna know the truth Heatle and its going to confuse you. If I was in charge at MS. I would remove the ability to install software outside the store completely. As I have said though I would also drop the bad PR name of Windows store. Its not a windows store no its a windows package manager... and its handicapped not just technically, but by its appearance. Yes I would force all software installs through it, yes I would allow outside installs if they are packaged right with the proper amount of end user warnings. I would also make it impossible to remove from Corp versions of windows, although I would allow system admins the ability to disable outside repositories / software installation / and official repositories... and tools to create custom repos. So corporate machines would still have windows software management, only access to approved software (or none at all). Once you let users know that the store can be disabled... that is exactly what will happen.

    MS shot themselves in the foot with the store. Your not wrong. The FUD is strong some deserved some not. No matter what at this point its tainted. The only thing to do is redesign and rename, in hopes it can be marketed as a central feature of what ever terrible name major update is next.
     
  27. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Again, not saying you personally but if you do understand that you say then you know that much of what's been said in this thread is flat out wrong. UWP is not tied to the Store. The Store can't be a walled garden it is hosts apps that can be installed outside of the Store.


    You're not the only that's said that and I think it's obvious just how unworkable that it is.

    In time Windows 10 is going to be the dominate version of Windows. With the plans laid out today a developer creates an MSIX and can deliver it however they want. If you're going to get 85% to 95% of the cut outside of games, Microsoft is offering billing, distribution and updating. Past issues aside it looks like Microsoft is making this easy and for smaller developers close to a no brainer when all of this stuff comes online.

    If this applied to games, Valve would be shitting bricks right now. And not because of a "walled garden".
     
  28. biggles

    biggles [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,836
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Regarding the Windows store, is there a way to get free credit for games, apps, etc? Bing searches or something like that?
     
  29. chithanh

    chithanh Gawd

    Messages:
    781
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    I don't say that full screen is generally faster, just that it has performance implications, which are in some cases non-negligible still today. In addition, some input lag increase may result from desktop compositing and triple buffering. Though I understand that this problem is much less severe than it was when Windows 10 was released.

    Running a game at non-native resolution is another case with performance implications.

    On another slightly unrelated topic, UWP have been widely criticized to be unfriendly to games, due to the way that e.g. updates work. Needing twice the disk space for an update of a few MB mobile app is ok, but for a 50 GB game?

    And that is before even mentioning the horrible experiences that people had with downloading from the Microsoft store.