Developer: “There Is Absolutely No Adoption for the Windows Store”

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, May 6, 2018.

  1. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    I have 2 apps from the Windows store: Netflix and Hulu. Of course, I don't use either, and opt for my Fire TV instead.
     
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  2. 86 5.0L

    86 5.0L [H]ardness Supreme

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    I’m still wondering what that garbage Steam program is for
     
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  3. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not necessarily. If it is good enough, it can get used by being the default. Apple has had a fair bit of success with their store for this reason. It is on all Macs, you get Apple software through it, and it is fairly competent. So while it hasn't become the be-all, end-all like on iOS (since there you don't have a choice) it is still used a fair bit. However the Windows store is hot garbage, not in the least because it only supports UWP apps, not Win32 apps which are 99.999999% of the software anyone wants to actually use.

    If it was better, it could actually become something people used, but it isn't so for now it gets totally ignored.
     
  4. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If you code for an application you dont do it for UWP because win32 works on windows 10 and previous versions. MS doesn't even put their own applications on UWP. If they want adoption start leading by example. Office all of it in the store same with edge, and all other applications.
     
  5. ltron

    ltron n00b

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    Their prices are way too high in their store as well. Microsoft are just too greedy for their own good.
     
  6. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    I've never really compared prices to stuff in there, so I can't comment with certainty. What I can say is that the reason a lot of companies have "sales" is that they are overloaded with physical goods. Once physical goods are gone, you can make the argument that the amount of sales may decrease.

    Steam still has sales, but that is games which may be treated differently than productivity software.
     
  7. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Not that I have noticed. I have had no issues getting sales on their games and it also is great when it is a play anywhere title, like buying the game twice for one price.
     
  8. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    The best part about the windows store - the ONE time I tried to use it to install Office and Skype - you can't. LOL. POS.
     
  9. jnemesh

    jnemesh [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is what put me off of Windows 8 and 10 in the first place. It's obvious that MS covets Apple's "walled garden", both for their ability to control, and for them being able to take a significant cut of the profits from any app sold there. I have been a Windows users BECAUSE it lacks a walled garden, and because I, not a corporation, gets to choose what software I run on MY hardware! They have tried to foist off a version of Windows that ONLY runs UWP apps from their official Windows Store...and it flopped horribly. People DO NOT WANT UWP. By the way? What does the "U" stand for? "Universal"? So I can run this app on what now? There isn't a separate tablet OS now (thankfully)...and there aren't any phones that run these apps...so why make a "universal" app that only runs on PC when you could just as easily just write a Win32 app, bypass the stupid store, and keep all of the profits for yourself? I dont understand the reason for it's very existence now that Windows Phone is finally dead. I am betting that this is some executive's pet project and THEY wont let it die.
     
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  10. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Do people outside of online forums like this really think about the APIs used to build the software they use?

    I get not liking Windows 10 or UWPs but is it really a viable plan for Windows, regardless of Microsoft failures in phones, to just stick to Win32 x86 desktop mouse and keyboard driven apps for ever and every and always?
     
  11. ZenDragon

    ZenDragon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Do you even understand what UWP is?? Its a development platform simply utilizing a set of components built into the windows platform that would allow it to run on any other platforms supporting the UWP platform. This includes of course any and all windows versions, as well as iPhone, Android, and more via Xamarin. Its actually an excellent platform/framework that is quite robust. That said, it may be too little too late for MS in terms of adoption, as the open source community already has solutions for everything Microsoft is doing in the area. I will argue however that MS has been more cooperative than both Apple and Google in terms of playing nice across platforms as they have products and their development platform playing nicely with everyone. On the flip side of that coin, Apple, and Google don't do shit to make anything play nicely with native(or UWP) windows applications despite the fact that windows is still on a VAST MAJORITY of computers.
     
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  12. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

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  13. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    Color me not surprised.
     
  14. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse [H]ard|Gawd

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    The real failure of the store isn't the store its self its the attracting of developers to the store, its really just a bunch of garbage apps. Do a search for certain applications in the store sometime and look at all of the knock-offs of what you are looking for. I would use the store if they actually had decent apps.
     
  15. ZenDragon

    ZenDragon [H]ard|Gawd

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  16. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes.

    What does that have to do with not wanting to pay 30% when windows installers are a thing?
     
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  17. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Well before Apple and Google there was Steam. Having a service to handle distribution, sales, security, cloud data for things like game saves, has value.
     
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  18. ZenDragon

    ZenDragon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Whats your point? You can side load android (apk) and apple apple apps as well. If your "windows installer" was obtained legally its likely you paid for that, including any markup charged by the seller. The 30% is a fee on app sales, free applications are obviously still free. It's literally no different than any other platform installer. At its core, as with every other "store" however the Windows Store is an improvement over the traditional "go find your installer somewhere on the internet," approach. Even most distributions of Linux do this. Why is it that this is an acceptable standard for other operating systems but when MS does it with Windows everybody crys foul?

    Additionally, you have to consider that a majority of windows users are still dumb. You cant apply the same line of thinking that you or I have in regards to getting something installed. My grandmother for example is not going to have any clue how to install x applicaiton by searching the web, without some sort of guidance. With something like Windows Store I can just say, " click the windows store icon, find x, and click install," and done. I know for the most part that x should have been scanned and as a UWP application will be inherently sand-boxed during the install to the point where it is far less likely to cause issues or contain a virus or malware than some random file delivery site like major geeks.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  19. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

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    The numbers and data would disagree that the "windows store" is it. If it was working well articles titled like the point of this thread, "Developer: “There is absolutely no adoption for the Windows Store”", wouldn't be the general consensus of the development community.
     
  20. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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  21. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

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    I get that, however the Microsoft store doesn't provide a consumer populated marketplace to command that price and effort to get your product on their store. As a developer why would I pay 30% of revenue and foot all of the development cost to reach such a low percentage of the windows user base? I don't know a single person that has ever used the Microsoft store.

    The Apple store and Android Play marketplace has Billions of active users. I understand why those services have value, the MS store is essentially worthless to a developer.
     
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  22. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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  23. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    That is a load of bullshit as the steam version of quantum break runs much better. And that is very well-documented from any review site. If you want to continue to make that argument I'll link to plenty of reviews when I get home showing you were way off base with Quantum Break.
     
  24. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    I would love more information about UWP vs WIN32 performance. Thank you for offering to share.
     
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  25. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Gawd

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    Not to mention that UWP runs on only Windows 10, while Win32 runs on every version of Windows. So, Win32 is literally more universal than UWP. Microsoft is just trying to fake people out and psyke then into buying into this Microsoft Store and UWP branding by selling sentiments along with inferior technology and options to what we already have in Win32.


    Microsoft's software e-retailer strategy seems to be to try to figure out how to make artificial limitations appear like a necessity so that people will buy from Microsoft instead of the competitors - like trying to psyke / fake-out people into buying bottled sludgy sewer-water for $1.50 instead of the competitors' fresh and clean bottled glacier water for the same price. Normally, the strategy would be to enter the market with a superior product to entice people to buy it. But Microsoft is doing the opposite and offering an inferior product just to make it look different and new, and then is trying to trick people with propaganda and lies to get them on board with it. That's also what Microsoft did with Windows 10 to a very significant degree.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  26. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And let me guess, you will compare the release version with all it's bugs with the fixed version that was finally released on Steam, eh? The only thing I did not like about the Store version is that it was not a Play Anywhere game. The same saved game spots are there on my PC and XBox One X. The real and only reason the MS Store has not been successful is MS themselves.
     
  27. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Win32 is pretty much tied to x86, UWP isn't. Even though Windows phones have failed, there are other devices that Microsoft is targeting with Windows. If Windows then forever and always just be about Win32 apps on x86 desktop devices, then Microsoft is already there and has been forever. Indeed with the stuff they announced at Build to in bridging UWP Fluent design into Win32, UWP is really just becoming a more and more general set of APIs that don't have any tie to the Microsoft Store.
     
  28. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    So in other words you didn't pay any attention at all to the reviews and just want to argue for the sake of arguing. You really think no reviews use the newest version on Windows and instead went back and just used the launch performance? Really? And I have both versions myself so I know first hand what the review sites show is 100% correct as the steam version is quite a bit faster than the version on the Windows store. Not to mention the Windows store version was broken for weeks last year due to the one of the stupid creators updates as it was a stuttering mess.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Remember the Store version is DX 12 and the Steam version DX 11. The performance differences would be from that, not because of UWP. I played this a lot last year, Store version, can't recall ever having many issues with it. But it's a very demanding game, Store or Steam version and tough to max out at 4k even with a 1080 Ti. I actually did go back and run this a little bit to test the move to 1803 and it still seemed fine.
     
  30. ZenDragon

    ZenDragon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Finally someone who actually knows what they're talking about. So much misinformation on these things. Win32 has existed since early version of windows (I still have my Win32 API book from the late 90s lol) and is still used in Windows 10. It is little more than a bunch of .dll files the drive core windows functionality. The difference is that previously you developed directly against those binaries. That was one of the biggest reasons you would see some exploit released that affected windows 2000 - windows 10, because those binaries where still quietly sitting there doing their job the majority of which were seldom changed primarily to support backwards compatibility. Technically speaking UWP is just a platform abstraction over the top of .NET which is itself little more than another abstraction on top of those the original (but improved) binaries. The benefit is however is developing with UWP you are no longer tied to changes or bugs in those core api. You can develop against a unified platform and not have to make changes when new version of windows are released or bugs in the core apis are fixed. Hell, everything really from .net forward is simply layers and layers of abstractions over the original APIs.
     
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  31. Biznatch

    Biznatch 2[H]4U

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    Problem is they are trying to force you to use it by only making certain apps available in the store. Best example is the prod release of the Linux Subsystems for windows. It was a 'feature' you could add when it was in beta, but once it left beta they moved the installs to the windows store.
     
  32. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    The MS stores failure is all on MS an their greedy practices. :)

    Instead of trying to turn windows into a phone alike store driving walled garden.

    They should have made themselves the Yahoo of windows software, and built windows a proper Windows package manager. They have more then enough staff to cover curation, they could easily develop a system to allow developers to link update directories ect.

    If Debian and Red Hat can maintain massive repositories of software that can all be uploaded with one click or 6-10 characters in a terminal. MS has zero excuse for not offering the same for the far more vulnerable windows users of the world. That geeks have a safe repository they can install 40k+ software packages.. and using windows still means Grandma has to go to X or Y software developers web page to download software is pretty scary.

    MS could still go that route... but as there is no direct $ to be made they aren't capable of seeing how changing the way people interact with windows software could make their Store workable. Windows users are used to going to X or Y software companies webpage and downloading that Freeware or those updates for x or y package.

    Having all or darn close to all installed window software managed by a MS package manager. Would make a MS store a logical easy to use solution for the majority of users.

    Who knows perhaps some day soon MS will come to their senses and just build a proper closed source Windows DE for Linux. Build their own version APT... and improve every windows users life for the better. I mean damn that is exactly what Chrome and Android are. Updating is easier, installation is easier... and those stores are successful. Because people expect the store to be their only installation option. Even in Linux terms... these days the average Linux user doesn't really know how to install software that isn't just int he repository.
     
  33. jnemesh

    jnemesh [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok, genius, then why aren't developers flocking to this "superior" solution? Because it's bullshit, and MS wants a cut of the profit on anything in the Windows Store! It's more profitable for a company to develop separate programs for each platform and keep all of the profits from the sales on those platforms than to cede control to MS.

    By the way, Windows is NOT on the "vast majority of computers". It's on the vast majority of DESKTOP computers! There is a difference, and it's pretty damn huge!
     
  34. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    Yeah I was replying to the comment about there being no difference in performance not what was the actual cause of the difference. It is very very well-documented that the steam version runs a lot better but yes it's probably because of poor implementation of dx12 in the Windows store version. And even at 1080p, a 1080ti cannot maintain 60fps in the Windows store version with everything maxed which means having upscaling off.
     
  35. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    A whole lot of things are being commingled by some that really aren't related. UWP is a set of APIs that are both a subset and extension of Win32. It's really doesn't have anything to do with the Store inherently. The MS Store can host UWP, Win32 and PWA (progressive web apps). The Win32 apps are installed in a similar fashion to old Click Once tech, the app doesn't have it's own installer or update mechanism, that's handle by Windows 10 and the Store.

    One the path to where things are there was a lot of talk about Win32 going away and indeed there was thought of that at Microsoft. Where things stand today, Win32 isn't going anywhere. Neither is UWP though knowing Microsoft the name might change, we've already been through Metro then modern then Store apps with this stuff so who knows what's next. With support for Win32 apps in the Store, more integration of UWP APIs into Win32 apps, ARM emulation of Win32 and Windows 10 S now being a mode, I think it's pretty clear that Microsoft sees Win32 as something that's just part of the mix because of it's long history and that its still a core piece of Windows.

    But obviously the cloud is where Microsoft's future is and that makes sense, that business is just growing and growing and there's no ceiling at the moment. But Windows is still going to bring in billions a year for the foreseeable future.
     
  36. Grimlaking

    Grimlaking 2[H]4U

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    You realize office is 10 bucks a month for a 5 user license with 1tb of cloud storage per account. (meaning a net 5tb of cloud storage.)
     
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  37. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This. Nothing will be able to compete with it.
    Windows users dwarfs Amazon's customer base.
     
  38. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Really? So you are saying that it would be a disaster to have another successful option available? Cannot say I agree but then again, I am not the type of person who thinks Microsoft is out to get us. :D That said, how can you possibly think that it would be successful without the backing of Microsoft really pushing it, which they are not and have not been doing so. (Talking about UWP and the Store itself, if that is what you were talking about.)
     
  39. Grimlaking

    Grimlaking 2[H]4U

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    My issue with windows store is tied to Skype. I installed it back in 8.1. It was shitty and gimped and effectively. Useless because it only ran in full screen on your primary monitor. Uninstalled went with the stand alone installer and never looked back to the store again. I equate the store to tablet or phone only.
     
  40. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    So $120 a year more then Libre. ya get lost MS. I'll run Libra and buy a couple 1tb portable HDD or USB sticks every year instead.