Denuvo's Negative Impact on Performance, Loading Times Revealed in Benchmarks

Megalith

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Overlord Gaming has tested the performance and loading times of six more games with and without Denuvo and found that the infamous anti-tamper technology does, in fact, have an adverse effect: titles such as Dishonored 2 and Bulletstorm appear to see increases in framerate by about 5% to 10% with the DRM removed, while loading times improved by as much as 25% in some titles. eTeknix is promoting at least some level of skepticism, however, as the testing methodology and hardware involved isn’t made entirely clear.

This would, therefore, appear to be the most compelling and complex evidence to date. Evidence that clearly suggests that it does, indeed, have a pretty notable impact on performance. Without meaning to sound critical of the results, I would perhaps have liked to have seen a little more detail in the methodology. For example, was the tests carried out on the same system? Two identical systems? In addition, was the RAM fully “cleared” before each test was conducted?
 

dgingeri

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I was given an option to pursue a job as a jr sysadmin for Denuvo in Boulder, Colorado back in September. I opted not to pursue the job because the pay rate was incredibly low, not even being high enough to cover rent for an apartment in the area. Their problems extend far more than just performance issues. Underpayment of employees would hurt their ability to get good workers, and thus good work product. It's a fundamental flaw with their base business practices.
 

duronboy

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My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?
 

tunatime

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My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?
As long as you don't upload anything I think it's mostly fine.
 

M76

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My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?
You don't have to download the entire game, there are sites dedicated to this stuff where you can download the cracked exe only.
 

duronboy

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That's right, I almost forgot about the site that rhymes with CameSloppyWorld. Pardon my ignorance once again, has that been specifically ruled legal as long as one owns the game?
 

ChoGGi

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The cracks for denuvo don't remove it, they just bypass the checks.


Edit:
That's right, I almost forgot about the site that rhymes with CameSloppyWorld. Pardon my ignorance once again, has that been specifically ruled legal as long as one owns the game?
Distributing the crack is still distributing copywritten material. It's a bit more gray once you have the crack, but you are still making a copy in RAM, so... ask a lawyer?
 

Derangel

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Going to break down my thoughts on a game-by-game basis as I watch the vid.

Dishonored 2 and Death of the Outsider: Interesting. The load time differences are not surprising given his previous load time tests, but the performance is quite interesting. Given that he only did one test on each, the FPS is within margin of error but I'd say the frame time differences are outside of the error margin. Denuvo potentially adding some latency isn't shocking, this is something that started to get talked about thanks to Tekken 7's PC issues.

Lords of the Fallen: Glad to see them remove Denuvo from this game. This is the buggy mess of a game that started the whole, long, debate over Denuvo in the first place. Steam DRM, generally, has little to no impact on performance (at least when it's implemented correctly) so differences here are likely all Denuvo related. The game used the original release of Denuvo. Frame rate and frame time differences are really shocking (30.5% increase in average and 16% for Min. 23.48% and a whopping 76% decrease in avg and max frame times respectively). I wonder if they made other changes to the game for the GOTY release or if the only difference between them in DRM. Either way, it does lend some truth to the developer's original comments on Denuvo in the past.

Bulletstorm: 9.8% and 45.6% (holy crap) increase for Avg and Min framerates with an 8.9% and 73.25% decrease for frame time. These frame time numbers for this and Lords of the Fallen are nuts. Definitely a massive improvement and likely tied into the big min frame rate differences as well. The average fps not having a big change really shows how often the game is up at high frame rates. Really makes me wish he included more in-depth numbers. 1% and 0.1% numbers here would have done a much better job highlighting the differences.

Life is Strange Before the Storm: Not a big change in frame rates in terms of raw numbers, but a pretty massive max frame time change. Given the kind of game it is, the frame time difference isn't a big deal, but those big changes in max frame times are quite interesting.

Moto Racer 4: I'm running out of ways to say the same thing. Either way, the differences here seem like they would only matter if you unlock the frame rate. Once it is unlocked however, that change in minimum and change in frame times could be a big deal. Games like this require a lot of quick reactions from the player, so the difference is important.

Rime: Another poster boy for the Denuvo arguments. The devs really fucked up on the Denuvo implementation for this one, definitely a good example of how sloppy implementation of any "feature" can mess up a game. Regardless, its nice to see it running well on PCs now.

Deus Ex Mankind Divided: Wasn't even aware that a Denuvo stripping exe existed for this game. Another title where the average frame rate isn't a huge difference, but the averaged minimum is over 100% different. Pity this is based only on the in-game benchmark as it's not really accurate to the game itself. Really would have been nice to see this done with actual gameplay with frame times recorded.

Summary of thoughts: This paints a pretty different picture compared to his last set of tests. It seems that Denuvo had a bigger impact in these games than the last ones he tested. I'd be interested to see if a stronger CPU would even out the min differences some more, but he did pick a decent CPU to test with. As I said with Bulletstorm, I think his video could have been more informative if he had included the 1% and .01% numbers. Its still a pity that Ubisoft refused to remove Denuvo on any of it's older titles. The supposed big impact Denuvo as on CPUs would be nice to see tested on games that are fairly CPU heavy.

My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?

Legality is a pretty grey area, but it's kind of a moot point. Outside of Deus Ex Mankind Divided (shown in the vid) and FFXV, Denuvo cracked games do no disable Denuvo. The cracks trick Denuvo into thinking the copy is legit, but the protection continues to run.
 

Master_shake_

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simple solution, don't buy games with denuvo and vote with your wallet.

pirates aren't the enemy publishers are.

there are studies that say piracy has no effect on sales.

studies so wonderful and informative they were kept secret.
 

Derangel

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simple solution, don't buy games with denuvo and vote with your wallet.

pirates aren't the enemy publishers are.

there are studies that say piracy has no effect on sales.

studies so wonderful and informative they were kept secret.

Have you read the "wonderful and informative" study? The study itself even admits that there are large margins of error for the data they collected. They also say that the method they used is the "least bad" option. Not a good option, not the right option, but the least bad. Beyond that, the study also casts doubt on how truthful people were in their responses. As an actual data point to prove anything one way or the other it is essentially worthless. It makes for an interesting study to work from and to expand on with further studies, but that's about it. As usual, the media took the report and made up their own assumptions based on the results instead of paying attention to the actual conclusion and why the authors themselves cast some doubt on those results. Also, it wasn't really kept secret. The EU released the entire study when asked to do so. If they really wanted it hidden they could have found a way around the freedom of information request or blacked out elements of the study. The entire "the EU buried this because it shows piracy has no impact" is complete bullshit invented by the press to tell a story. No one asked why it wasn't published, no one talked to authors of the study, no one did ANY actual investigation into the EU's decision and instead made up their ow narrative.
 

ChadD

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There are so many great indie titles and even decent AAA material from companies that don't use this type of junk. When your finished ALL of that stuff... perhaps then consider spending money on a game produced by a company willing to use this type of junk.
 

SvenBent

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what is the is crap abotuh alf articles then using vidoe for bencmhakrs instead of making in a goddam full articleswere ican eaisly see and analyse the numbers without having to rewing bakc and forth ?

vidoe is not agood media for numbersanalysis
 

Madoc

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If it had no impact everyone would want to hire denuvo devs As apparently they can make programs that don't use cpu cycles while still doing something.
Is that like working all day and accomplishing nothing? Because I can do that if anyone is looking to hire me.
 

M76

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Is that like working all day and accomplishing nothing? Because I can do that if anyone is looking to hire me.
Actually the opposite. Accomplish something by doing nothing.
 

duronboy

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what is the is crap abotuh alf articles then using vidoe for bencmhakrs instead of making in a goddam full articleswere ican eaisly see and analyse the numbers without having to rewing bakc and forth ?

vidoe is not agood media for numbersanalysis

I had to see your other posts to find out if other postings and possibly why your postings look like this. Apparently you're posting left-handed from work?

Maybe put another half-second into spell checking? I smell burned toast when I read your posts.
 

MMitch

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I had to see your other posts to find out if other postings and possibly why your postings look like this. Apparently you're posting left-handed from work?

Maybe put another half-second into spell checking? I smell burned toast when I read your posts.

Lol I read your post and thought you were the grammar police and then read the original post, you were actually smooth on him lol. That's some typos !
 

Bobert

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I won't buy games that have Denuvo. Even games that are free giveaways are not worth downloading. :yawn:
 

dgingeri

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My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?
The DMCA makes it illegal to attempt to bypass copy protection of any kind. It's technically not a criminal offense unless the person who bypasses it attempts to sell it for profit, but it still could cost the offender from $2000-10,000 in civil penalties, of course payable to the maker of the game.
 

Master_shake_

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Have you read the "wonderful and informative" study? The study itself even admits that there are large margins of error for the data they collected. They also say that the method they used is the "least bad" option. Not a good option, not the right option, but the least bad. Beyond that, the study also casts doubt on how truthful people were in their responses. As an actual data point to prove anything one way or the other it is essentially worthless. It makes for an interesting study to work from and to expand on with further studies, but that's about it. As usual, the media took the report and made up their own assumptions based on the results instead of paying attention to the actual conclusion and why the authors themselves cast some doubt on those results. Also, it wasn't really kept secret. The EU released the entire study when asked to do so. If they really wanted it hidden they could have found a way around the freedom of information request or blacked out elements of the study. The entire "the EU buried this because it shows piracy has no impact" is complete bullshit invented by the press to tell a story. No one asked why it wasn't published, no one talked to authors of the study, no one did ANY actual investigation into the EU's decision and instead made up their ow narrative.

i guess it was a good enough study that 2 people from the EU commision used the results to prove displaced sales from piracy.

The only partial exception to this is the film industry, where the consumption of ten pirated movies leads to four fewer cinema visits and thereby to a loss of five percent of current sales volume. This might be due to the higher price policy for films in comparison to the music, books and games industry.

Interestingly, these results concerning the film industry found their way to a publication of an academic paper by Benedikt Hertz and Kamil Kiljański, both members of the chief economist team of the European Commission. Yet the other unpublished results, showing no negative impact of piracy in the music, book and games industry, were not mentioned in the paper. Beyond that, the original study itself is not referred to either.

when the results you are looking for are there it's ok to cite a "bad" study

also

We understand that the Commission says that it is a complete coincidence that its decision to publish the study, a year and a half after it was finished, happens to coincide with Ms Reda’s freedom of information request. If this is the case, it would be a pity : Having experienced delays, obstruction and obfuscation from the European Commission in response to freedom of information requests, we thought that this time, it had at least acted in an appropriate, honest and timely manner this time, in response to Ms Reda’s request.

sounds a lot like suppression to me anyway.

https://edri.org/did-the-eu-commission-hide-a-study/
 

ZodaEX

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Dude's name is Sven... I'd give a bit of latitude for English not being his first language. Plus almost looks like something I would do when typing on my phone, just because English is my first language (on my phone) auto correct can fix things.

People really need to stop being so lazy, and go into their phone's setting and disable auto correct. My older sister bitches constantly about how much auto-correct always fucks everything she types up, but she refuses to go to the trouble to switch it off because it's also annoying for her to do that.
 

Derangel

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i guess it was a good enough study that 2 people from the EU commision used the results to prove displaced sales from piracy.



when the results you are looking for are there it's ok to cite a "bad" study

also



sounds a lot like suppression to me anyway.

https://edri.org/did-the-eu-commission-hide-a-study/


Well, yeah. People love to site studies when it fits their narrative. That's why its important to look into any study that people use to "prove" their point. Kind of like how certain politicians love to reference studies that "prove" their anti-game propaganda despite most of those studies having been torn apart for years. People turning statistics to their own purpose does not make the studies cited any more credible, it just makes the people citing them look more like assholes trying to trick people.

That article you linked really doesn't say anything. Its a load of speculation and saying "well maybe". Nothing definitive or anything. If the EU is telling the truth then they published the study on their own and the timing happened to co-inside with the information request. Which would mean they weren't hiding it. If the timing claim is wrong then it means they published the study in response to the request, meaning they decided to get it out in the public instead of screwing around for ages and making it hard for the person to get the information they asked for. Either way, its hard to classify it as suppression. If you want to claim they waited that long because "reasons", go for it. I don't deal in "what if" and "well maybe" lines of logic though. The facts remain that the study itself does not provide concrete answers one way or the other and to claim as such is dishonest.
 

Master_shake_

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Well, yeah. People love to site studies when it fits their narrative. That's why its important to look into any study that people use to "prove" their point. Kind of like how certain politicians love to reference studies that "prove" their anti-game propaganda despite most of those studies having been torn apart for years. People turning statistics to their own purpose does not make the studies cited any more credible, it just makes the people citing them look more like assholes trying to trick people.

That article you linked really doesn't say anything. Its a load of speculation and saying "well maybe". Nothing definitive or anything. If the EU is telling the truth then they published the study on their own and the timing happened to co-inside with the information request. Which would mean they weren't hiding it. If the timing claim is wrong then it means they published the study in response to the request, meaning they decided to get it out in the public instead of screwing around for ages and making it hard for the person to get the information they asked for. Either way, its hard to classify it as suppression. If you want to claim they waited that long because "reasons", go for it. I don't deal in "what if" and "well maybe" lines of logic though. The facts remain that the study itself does not provide concrete answers one way or the other and to claim as such is dishonest.
This study may have remained buried in a drawer for several more years to come if it weren’t for an access to documents request I filed under the European Union’s Freedom of Information law on July 27, 2017, after having become aware of the public tender for this study dating back to 2013. The Commission failed twice to respond to my request in time, but I expect a final answer with the study and some supplemental material to be officially released by the end of this week.

https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/
 

Zulgrib

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But it has no negative impact, I have been told over and over again that there is NO Negative impact on game performance.
And people not purchasing games "protected" by denuvo has no negative impact on sales and their reputation.
 

SvenBent

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I had to see your other posts to find out if other postings and possibly why your postings look like this. Apparently you're posting left-handed from work?

Maybe put another half-second into spell checking? I smell burned toast when I read your posts.

You are welcome. Morning toast smells wonderful.
 

Zuul

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I was given an option to pursue a job as a jr sysadmin for Denuvo in Boulder, Colorado back in September. I opted not to pursue the job because the pay rate was incredibly low, not even being high enough to cover rent for an apartment in the area. Their problems extend far more than just performance issues. Underpayment of employees would hurt their ability to get good workers, and thus good work product. It's a fundamental flaw with their base business practices.
so for more bucks you'd been a cunt?
 

Pieter3dnow

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I mean I hardly can understand why people hire Denuvo to begin with , wait I do understand why the game Industry is hiring Denuvo because the game industry is ran by twats that only see dollar signs instead of hiring competent programmers and under pay them overwork them and screw Q&A. Game industry screwed ups is just with the MS mantra "release first patch later" .

Denuvo is a clear indicator that the game Industry is rotten to the core.
 

dgz

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Doom 2016 had Denuvo until it was broken and id Software released a patch to remove it. Frame rates were fantastic already (at least 90% above 100) but initial loading used to take something like a minute. It's about 10 seconds without it. What was this thing doing in the background I don't know.
 

GoodBoy

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Is it me or does this guy sound like a text-to-speech synthesized voice?

Australian sounding, but obviously not...

It makes me distrust it... does anyone know of other sites that have made similar measurements that would corroborate these results?
 

oldmanbal

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Doom 2016 had Denuvo until it was broken and id Software released a patch to remove it. Frame rates were fantastic already (at least 90% above 100) but initial loading used to take something like a minute. It's about 10 seconds without it. What was this thing doing in the background I don't know.

Probably mining crypto, no one would really know :confused:
 

dgingeri

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so for more bucks you'd been a cunt?
If they'd been willing to pay a decent wage, they'd be very different people, and likely would have produced a decent product that did what it was supposed to with far less impact on performance. So, then I'd be fine with working for them.
 
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