Denuvo's Negative Impact on Performance, Loading Times Revealed in Benchmarks

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    Overlord Gaming has tested the performance and loading times of six more games with and without Denuvo and found that the infamous anti-tamper technology does, in fact, have an adverse effect: titles such as Dishonored 2 and Bulletstorm appear to see increases in framerate by about 5% to 10% with the DRM removed, while loading times improved by as much as 25% in some titles. eTeknix is promoting at least some level of skepticism, however, as the testing methodology and hardware involved isn’t made entirely clear.

    This would, therefore, appear to be the most compelling and complex evidence to date. Evidence that clearly suggests that it does, indeed, have a pretty notable impact on performance. Without meaning to sound critical of the results, I would perhaps have liked to have seen a little more detail in the methodology. For example, was the tests carried out on the same system? Two identical systems? In addition, was the RAM fully “cleared” before each test was conducted?
     
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  2. filip

    filip [H]ard|Gawd

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    But it has no negative impact, I have been told over and over again that there is NO Negative impact on game performance.

    edit: /s
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  3. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    I was given an option to pursue a job as a jr sysadmin for Denuvo in Boulder, Colorado back in September. I opted not to pursue the job because the pay rate was incredibly low, not even being high enough to cover rent for an apartment in the area. Their problems extend far more than just performance issues. Underpayment of employees would hurt their ability to get good workers, and thus good work product. It's a fundamental flaw with their base business practices.
     
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  4. duronboy

    duronboy [H]Lite

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    My first thought is how hard would it be to simply download the denuvo-free copy and do one's own testing. On the other hand, how illegal is it to download(or admit you downloaded) a pirated game, even if you own it?
     
  5. tunatime

    tunatime 2[H]4U

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    As long as you don't upload anything I think it's mostly fine.
     
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  6. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If it had no impact everyone would want to hire denuvo devs As apparently they can make programs that don't use cpu cycles while still doing something.
     
  7. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You don't have to download the entire game, there are sites dedicated to this stuff where you can download the cracked exe only.
     
  8. duronboy

    duronboy [H]Lite

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    That's right, I almost forgot about the site that rhymes with CameSloppyWorld. Pardon my ignorance once again, has that been specifically ruled legal as long as one owns the game?
     
  9. ChoGGi

    ChoGGi [H]ard|Gawd

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    The cracks for denuvo don't remove it, they just bypass the checks.


    Edit:
    Distributing the crack is still distributing copywritten material. It's a bit more gray once you have the crack, but you are still making a copy in RAM, so... ask a lawyer?
     
  10. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Going to break down my thoughts on a game-by-game basis as I watch the vid.

    Dishonored 2 and Death of the Outsider: Interesting. The load time differences are not surprising given his previous load time tests, but the performance is quite interesting. Given that he only did one test on each, the FPS is within margin of error but I'd say the frame time differences are outside of the error margin. Denuvo potentially adding some latency isn't shocking, this is something that started to get talked about thanks to Tekken 7's PC issues.

    Lords of the Fallen: Glad to see them remove Denuvo from this game. This is the buggy mess of a game that started the whole, long, debate over Denuvo in the first place. Steam DRM, generally, has little to no impact on performance (at least when it's implemented correctly) so differences here are likely all Denuvo related. The game used the original release of Denuvo. Frame rate and frame time differences are really shocking (30.5% increase in average and 16% for Min. 23.48% and a whopping 76% decrease in avg and max frame times respectively). I wonder if they made other changes to the game for the GOTY release or if the only difference between them in DRM. Either way, it does lend some truth to the developer's original comments on Denuvo in the past.

    Bulletstorm: 9.8% and 45.6% (holy crap) increase for Avg and Min framerates with an 8.9% and 73.25% decrease for frame time. These frame time numbers for this and Lords of the Fallen are nuts. Definitely a massive improvement and likely tied into the big min frame rate differences as well. The average fps not having a big change really shows how often the game is up at high frame rates. Really makes me wish he included more in-depth numbers. 1% and 0.1% numbers here would have done a much better job highlighting the differences.

    Life is Strange Before the Storm: Not a big change in frame rates in terms of raw numbers, but a pretty massive max frame time change. Given the kind of game it is, the frame time difference isn't a big deal, but those big changes in max frame times are quite interesting.

    Moto Racer 4: I'm running out of ways to say the same thing. Either way, the differences here seem like they would only matter if you unlock the frame rate. Once it is unlocked however, that change in minimum and change in frame times could be a big deal. Games like this require a lot of quick reactions from the player, so the difference is important.

    Rime: Another poster boy for the Denuvo arguments. The devs really fucked up on the Denuvo implementation for this one, definitely a good example of how sloppy implementation of any "feature" can mess up a game. Regardless, its nice to see it running well on PCs now.

    Deus Ex Mankind Divided: Wasn't even aware that a Denuvo stripping exe existed for this game. Another title where the average frame rate isn't a huge difference, but the averaged minimum is over 100% different. Pity this is based only on the in-game benchmark as it's not really accurate to the game itself. Really would have been nice to see this done with actual gameplay with frame times recorded.

    Summary of thoughts: This paints a pretty different picture compared to his last set of tests. It seems that Denuvo had a bigger impact in these games than the last ones he tested. I'd be interested to see if a stronger CPU would even out the min differences some more, but he did pick a decent CPU to test with. As I said with Bulletstorm, I think his video could have been more informative if he had included the 1% and .01% numbers. Its still a pity that Ubisoft refused to remove Denuvo on any of it's older titles. The supposed big impact Denuvo as on CPUs would be nice to see tested on games that are fairly CPU heavy.

    Legality is a pretty grey area, but it's kind of a moot point. Outside of Deus Ex Mankind Divided (shown in the vid) and FFXV, Denuvo cracked games do no disable Denuvo. The cracks trick Denuvo into thinking the copy is legit, but the protection continues to run.
     
  11. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    simple solution, don't buy games with denuvo and vote with your wallet.

    pirates aren't the enemy publishers are.

    there are studies that say piracy has no effect on sales.

    studies so wonderful and informative they were kept secret.
     
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  12. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Have you read the "wonderful and informative" study? The study itself even admits that there are large margins of error for the data they collected. They also say that the method they used is the "least bad" option. Not a good option, not the right option, but the least bad. Beyond that, the study also casts doubt on how truthful people were in their responses. As an actual data point to prove anything one way or the other it is essentially worthless. It makes for an interesting study to work from and to expand on with further studies, but that's about it. As usual, the media took the report and made up their own assumptions based on the results instead of paying attention to the actual conclusion and why the authors themselves cast some doubt on those results. Also, it wasn't really kept secret. The EU released the entire study when asked to do so. If they really wanted it hidden they could have found a way around the freedom of information request or blacked out elements of the study. The entire "the EU buried this because it shows piracy has no impact" is complete bullshit invented by the press to tell a story. No one asked why it wasn't published, no one talked to authors of the study, no one did ANY actual investigation into the EU's decision and instead made up their ow narrative.
     
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  13. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    There are so many great indie titles and even decent AAA material from companies that don't use this type of junk. When your finished ALL of that stuff... perhaps then consider spending money on a game produced by a company willing to use this type of junk.
     
  14. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    what is the is crap abotuh alf articles then using vidoe for bencmhakrs instead of making in a goddam full articleswere ican eaisly see and analyse the numbers without having to rewing bakc and forth ?

    vidoe is not agood media for numbersanalysis
     
  15. Madoc

    Madoc Gawd

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    Is that like working all day and accomplishing nothing? Because I can do that if anyone is looking to hire me.
     
  16. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Actually the opposite. Accomplish something by doing nothing.
     
  17. duronboy

    duronboy [H]Lite

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    I had to see your other posts to find out if other postings and possibly why your postings look like this. Apparently you're posting left-handed from work?

    Maybe put another half-second into spell checking? I smell burned toast when I read your posts.
     
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  18. MMitch

    MMitch Gawd

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    Lol I read your post and thought you were the grammar police and then read the original post, you were actually smooth on him lol. That's some typos !
     
  19. bugleyman

    bugleyman [H]ard|Gawd

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    English please.
     
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  20. Bobert

    Bobert Limp Gawd

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    I won't buy games that have Denuvo. Even games that are free giveaways are not worth downloading. :yawn:
     
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  21. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    Dude's name is Sven... I'd give a bit of latitude for English not being his first language. Plus almost looks like something I would do when typing on my phone, just because English is my first language (on my phone) auto correct can fix things.
     
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  22. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    The DMCA makes it illegal to attempt to bypass copy protection of any kind. It's technically not a criminal offense unless the person who bypasses it attempts to sell it for profit, but it still could cost the offender from $2000-10,000 in civil penalties, of course payable to the maker of the game.
     
  23. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    i guess it was a good enough study that 2 people from the EU commision used the results to prove displaced sales from piracy.

    when the results you are looking for are there it's ok to cite a "bad" study

    also

    sounds a lot like suppression to me anyway.

    https://edri.org/did-the-eu-commission-hide-a-study/
     
  24. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    People really need to stop being so lazy, and go into their phone's setting and disable auto correct. My older sister bitches constantly about how much auto-correct always fucks everything she types up, but she refuses to go to the trouble to switch it off because it's also annoying for her to do that.
     
  25. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Well, yeah. People love to site studies when it fits their narrative. That's why its important to look into any study that people use to "prove" their point. Kind of like how certain politicians love to reference studies that "prove" their anti-game propaganda despite most of those studies having been torn apart for years. People turning statistics to their own purpose does not make the studies cited any more credible, it just makes the people citing them look more like assholes trying to trick people.

    That article you linked really doesn't say anything. Its a load of speculation and saying "well maybe". Nothing definitive or anything. If the EU is telling the truth then they published the study on their own and the timing happened to co-inside with the information request. Which would mean they weren't hiding it. If the timing claim is wrong then it means they published the study in response to the request, meaning they decided to get it out in the public instead of screwing around for ages and making it hard for the person to get the information they asked for. Either way, its hard to classify it as suppression. If you want to claim they waited that long because "reasons", go for it. I don't deal in "what if" and "well maybe" lines of logic though. The facts remain that the study itself does not provide concrete answers one way or the other and to claim as such is dishonest.
     
  26. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/
     
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  27. Zulgrib

    Zulgrib n00b

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    And people not purchasing games "protected" by denuvo has no negative impact on sales and their reputation.
     
  28. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    I am honestly not sure I will be able to understand what I wrote to be able to reproduce it in a coherent way...
     
  29. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    You are welcome. Morning toast smells wonderful.
     
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  30. Zuul

    Zuul Gawd

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    so for more bucks you'd been a cunt?
     
  31. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    I mean I hardly can understand why people hire Denuvo to begin with , wait I do understand why the game Industry is hiring Denuvo because the game industry is ran by twats that only see dollar signs instead of hiring competent programmers and under pay them overwork them and screw Q&A. Game industry screwed ups is just with the MS mantra "release first patch later" .

    Denuvo is a clear indicator that the game Industry is rotten to the core.
     
  32. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    Doom 2016 had Denuvo until it was broken and id Software released a patch to remove it. Frame rates were fantastic already (at least 90% above 100) but initial loading used to take something like a minute. It's about 10 seconds without it. What was this thing doing in the background I don't know.
     
  33. GoodBoy

    GoodBoy [H]ard|Gawd

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    Is it me or does this guy sound like a text-to-speech synthesized voice?

    Australian sounding, but obviously not...

    It makes me distrust it... does anyone know of other sites that have made similar measurements that would corroborate these results?
     
  34. oldmanbal

    oldmanbal 2[H]4U

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    Probably mining crypto, no one would really know :confused:
     
  35. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    If they'd been willing to pay a decent wage, they'd be very different people, and likely would have produced a decent product that did what it was supposed to with far less impact on performance. So, then I'd be fine with working for them.