Denuvo to Introduce Switch Emulator Protection Software

I doubt what they are doing will impact performance on the Switch. It’s likely some various basic checks that look at timings/latency of hardware, etc that would be easy to see if the game was being emulated.
 
Luckily the Switch only has a handful of worthwhile exclusives. I guess unless you feel like playing Catz 14, lesser versions of games on other systems, or emulated Nintendo games from 2 decades ago.
 
Is Switch emulation that big on the PC? I mean I know it's not PS5 level of power need, but still.
 
Mchart said:
I doubt what they are doing will impact performance on the Switch. It’s likely some various basic checks that look at timings/latency of hardware, etc that would be easy to see if the game was being emulated.
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Whatever it is, the developers of Yuzu will find a way around it. Most likely it will act like it does on PC, as a temporary delay of actually getting the game running on PC. But it will likely have the same problems as PC, as in larger file size, worse performance, and of course it won't stop anyone from playing the game on PC. Either Denuvo will be removed from the rom, or Yuzu will be modified to work around it. Nintendo can feel free to port their games to PC now. Denuvo won't stop anything but extracting more money from developers.


sfsuphysics said:
Is Switch emulation that big on the PC? I mean I know it's not PS5 level of power need, but still.
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You're many years late if you aren't aware of this. It's gone past just emulation, as there's mods to the games.
 
it’s claimed that “anyone wishing to play the game has to buy a legitimate copy.”
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And what about players who have bought the game legitimately on Switch but would prefer the improvements that emulation might offer?

If we take a look back to the WiiU and the release of Breath of the Wild it created a whole new player base for the WiiU emulated version since the emulation was better performing and offered higher resolutions than the original console (apart from moddability). I know of people who bought physical versions just to have legitimate copies despite playing it on PC. It also accelerated development of that WiiU emulator.

Denuvo of course doesn't care for such use cases since it's in their interest to sell DRM and paint anyone doing things differently as thieves.
 
This will be a disaster for game preservation. Most old games are only obtainable through emulation now.

I'd estimate that 99% of people using emulation are not doing it for piracy, but to be able to play older games with better features or at all. Especially for games made for discontinued hardware.
 
vegeta535 said:
The hell you talking about? The Switch has sold over 100 million units. Their first part software sales are is something Sony and MS can't even dream of reaching.
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Meeho said:
This is very needed as the Switch is struggling with sales compared to PS5 and Xbox. If only it weren't pirated.
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Nintendo did it to themselves. Firstly because the Switch was a perfect storm of hackery. The Tegra GPU had known flaws that people took advantage of, since the Tegra chip in the Switch is the exact same chip used in other devices. Also, the OS used on the Switch is the same OS used on the 3DS, which was well understood and hacked by the community. Secondly the Switch is under powered, as the Tegra X1 chip is running much slower compared to other devices that used it. Terrible for Switch owners, but great for emulation since the console is slow. Finally, Nintendo should have ported their games to PC. Without ports of peoples favorite games, communities were built around supporting emulator authors to create a Switch emulator. A year after the Switch was released, people were already playing Mario Odyssey on their PC. Sony realized they were better off releasing their exclusives to PC, rather than watch people play them through and emulator and not giving Sony a dime. Nintendo is the only console manufacturer not releasing their exclusives to PC.
 
From what i've read so far, they aren't partnering with Nintendo on this, its just Denuvo trying to convince 3rd party developers they need this on the switch.
 
This will be a useless waste of money and time for everyone involved - except of course Denuvo themselves if they can scare anyone into buying this. Recent emulators for WiiU, 3DS, PS3, X360, and of course Switch work wonderfully. It has been a long journey and the Switch emulators - primarily Yuzu and Ryujinx, both open source from the very beginning - are noteworthy for being able to play things equally or better than the Switch itself at higher resolutions and with mods. There are still often some glitches that need to be worked around but a number of games are at or near perfect and even newly released ones (ie Xenoblade Chronicles 3) take a short period of time now before being polished into playability or even perfection. Overall this is a good thing - while a lot of people will just buy the games on Switch itself, there are plenty of others who will prefer to use an emulator on their powerful gaming PC (or even on mobile, or something like the Steam Deck).

Nintendo could capitalize on this by releasing ports of their games for PC in a timely fashion, but they are held back by their limited thinking in this regard. Microsoft and Sony have generally figured out that selling their games on PC via Steam is the best way to go (though both of them do make stupid decisions at times - MS refuses to allow Gamepass-via-Steam despite most titles being there and Steam supporting temp/sub access, Sony takes a long time to port stuff because of head-up-ass exclusivity hoping people will buy their hardware, but its better than them never doing so. Still it would be better if they';d release concurrently or shortly after console if technically needed. ). With luck the age of exclusivity, be it console hardware, store/platform, etc.. .should end, but some will struggle against it to the last. There will always be emulators designed by those who find it an interesting project and others who want to keep retro gaming alive and accessible, but if companies are really worried about users preferring emulation of recent titles on current gen hardware, the best thing they can do is just release it native on the platforms people want to play it, unencumbered. The amount of people on PC who would have paid for say.. Super Smash Bros Ultimate had it been sold on Steam on day 1 (or even several months later) would and continues to be huge!
 
How long will it take for Nintendo to realize that the best "emulator protection" is for them to simply offer their games for sale on Steam the way the Microsoft is doing with pretty much all of their AAA games. Nintendo is the only company I keep hearing about that is so over-obsessed with video game piracy and it is mainly because they are their own worst-enemy. They insist on living in the 1980's when people played all of their games in a box on their TV and nowhere else and anybody who tries to do something like say... back up their Nintendo games and play it on their PC are the bad guy. The Wii U disaster already almost had Nintendo in a position where they were finally going to look at a new business model and offer their content on other platforms, but the success of the Switch unfortunately allowed them to ease back into their old hyper-controlling ways.

It is time for Nintendo to take some time and watch the Godfather movie and pay attention to the part of the movie that talks about how the legalizing of gambling and alchohol in the mid 20th century devastated organized crime in America. It's the same with video game "piracy". If you make the content available to people at a reasonable price and in a convenient format, the problem of emulators will basically become a non-issue from a profit standpoint. Most people would not want to fight with buggy emulators that have horrible performance hits and poor controller mappings if there was a better option that was affordable and on the platform that they were using. Nintendo is creating their own problems here.
 
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gvx64 said:
How long will it take for Nintendo to realize that the best "emulator protection" is for them to simply offer their games for sale on Steam the way the Microsoft is doing with pretty much all of their AAA games. Nintendo is the only company I keep hearing about that is so over-obsessed with video game piracy and it is mainly because they are their own worst-enemy. They insist on living in the 1980's when people played all of their games in a box on their TV and nowhere else and anybody who tries to do something like say... back up their Nintendo games and play it on their PC are the bad guy. The Wii U disaster already almost had Nintendo in a position where they were finally going to look at a new business model and offer their content on other platforms, but the success of the Switch unfortunately allowed them to ease back into their old hyper-controlling ways.
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Likely never. Nintendo has always loathed emulation and they've always had a "My way or the highway, vie of things. Unless there's a major shakeup in leadership I can't see them ever supporting running things off of their own platform.
 
gvx64 said:
How long will it take for Nintendo to realize that the best "emulator protection" is for them to simply offer their games for sale on Steam the way the Microsoft is doing with pretty much all of their AAA games.
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After school yesterday my 6 year old ask me "Daddy can you see if you can download Mario" I think he may have seen it on one of his shows and combined with talking to other kids ... try explaining to a 6 year old about the differences in exclusive content on certain platforms... so my answer was "no" . Then in the most adorable fashion he said "Well can you download we you because that also has Mario" him not understanding it's a console... but inside me I had a big ol' grin and said "Yes I can" :D
 
Sycraft said:
Likely never. Nintendo has always loathed emulation and they've always had a "My way or the highway, vie of things. Unless there's a major shakeup in leadership I can't see them ever supporting running things off of their own platform.
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They loathe it so much that they resell dumped roms. Apparently some of the virtual console's SNES roms have headers on it from the late 90s when they were first dumped by hackers. Whee....
 
jbltecnicspro said:
They loathe it so much that they resell dumped roms. Apparently some of the virtual console's SNES roms have headers on it from the late 90s when they were first dumped by hackers. Whee....
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Oh wow, that is hilarious. I mean, that's the thing. Nintendo probably doesn't even have copies of some of these games, or at least they can't find them easily. I mean, I am not sure if Nintendo of Japan even keeps track of their english translations. That basically just proves the point of the emulation community: emulation is necessary for the preservation of content.

I mean, you would be nuts to even be playing cartridge games on the original hardware in 2022. I had two carts fail on me in the last year or so (an N64 and an NES cart) and I am just glad that it wasn't anything that I couldn't afford to replace on the used market. That was when I made the decision to start backing up my massive library and I lost games even trying to do the backups. The reality is that, from a moral standpoint, I believe I have a right to access the content I paid for even though Nintendo would like me to think that I do not. Emulation gives people the ability to do this.

Also, the reality is that 99% of old games on Nintendo platforms are never going to see the light of day in any kind of new release. Heck, most of the SNES games that Nintendo released on the Wii and Wii U eShops 10 years ago are not going to see releases on the Switch because games have a shelf life in terms of commercial value and it's a much steeper dropoff than with something like say a movie. Nintendo finally gave the Switch a handful of the most popular N64 games (like 10 or so) after people complained for years and that's probably not even a profitable venture for them. The reality is that most people today in 2022 wouldn't even want to play an N64 game for free let alone pay money for it. 240p resolution turns people off faster than garlic-flavored ice cream. Forget about anything from before this gen, Sega is offering most of their Genesis library as unprotected ROMs on Steam for basically less than $1.00 a piece because that is all people will pay (I applaud Sega for doing this though, if Nintendo did the same they could make ROM downloading sites obsolete over night). There's also the issue that a lot of these games might be seen as slightly controversial in 2022 and Nintendo won't touch anything with even a hint of edginess with a 10 foot pole. This is why I suspect that we won't ever see games like Conker's Bad Fur Day, Mother 3 or even Banjo Tooie get offered in an official way at least on a Nintendo platform. In short, I thank the emulation community for their contributions to preservation because without it we would have a big black hole where video game classics are supposed to be.
 
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gvx64 said:
Oh wow, that is hilarious. I mean, that's the thing. Nintendo probably doesn't even have copies of some of these games, or at least they can't find them easily. I mean, I am not sure if Nintendo of Japan even keeps track of their english translations. That basically just proves the point of the emulation community: emulation is necessary for the preservation of content.

I mean, you would be nuts to even be playing cartridge games on the original hardware in 2022. I had two carts fail on me in the last year or so (an N64 and an NES cart) and I am just glad that it wasn't anything that I couldn't afford to replace on the used market. That was when I made the decision to start backing up my massive library and I lost games even trying to do the backups. The reality is that, from a moral standpoint, I believe I have a right to access the content I paid for even though Nintendo would like me to think that I do not. Emulation gives people the ability to do this.

Also, the reality is that 99% of old games on Nintendo platforms are never going to see the light of day in any kind of new release. Heck, most of the SNES games that Nintendo released on the Wii and Wii U eShops 10 years ago are not going to see releases on the Switch because games have a shelf life in terms of commercial value and it's a much steeper dropoff than with something like say a movie. Nintendo finally gave the Switch a handful of the most popular N64 games (like 10 or so) after people complained for years and that's probably not even a profitable venture for them. The reality is that most people today in 2022 wouldn't even want to play an N64 game for free let alone pay money for it. 240p resolution turns people off faster than garlic-flavored ice cream. Forget about anything from before this gen, Sega is offering most of their Genesis library as unprotected ROMs on Steam for basically less than $1.00 a piece because that is all people will pay (I applaud Sega for doing this though, if Nintendo did the same they could make ROM downloading sites obsolete over night). There's also the issue that a lot of these games might be seen as slightly controversial in 2022 and Nintendo won't touch anything with even a hint of edginess with a 10 foot pole. This is why I suspect that we won't ever see games like Conker's Bad Fur Day, Mother 3 or even Banjo Tooie get offered in an official way at least on a Nintendo platform. In short, I thank the emulation community for their contributions to preservation because without it we would have a big black hole where video game classics are supposed to be.
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Actually Nintendo is the least censor happy of the big 3 nowadays.
 
vegeta535 said:
Actually Nintendo is the least censor happy of the big 3 nowadays.
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Agreed. The only reason I don't think they'll be localizing Mother 3 is because there never was a big audience for the original in the US. It only sold around 100k units on the SNES. Despite the clamor for a return to the West, those are the vocal minority. I recall renting Earthbound as a kid and it never captured my interest. I tried it again as an adult and it held my interest as little as it did for me as a kid.
 
Armenius said:
Agreed. The only reason I don't think they'll be localizing Mother 3 is because there never was a big audience for the original in the US. It only sold around 100k units on the SNES. Despite the clamor for a return to the West, those are the vocal minority. I recall renting Earthbound as a kid and it never captured my interest. I tried it again as an adult and it held my interest as little as it did for me as a kid.
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Yea I was huge into jrpg during the SNES. Playing pretty much every one. Earthbound never captured my interest.
 
vegeta535 said:
Yea I was huge into jrpg during the SNES. Playing pretty much every one. Earthbound never captured my interest.
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Same. I still have some credit in the Wii U eshop and every now and then I get tempted to buy earthbound. And I can never get myself to do it.
 
Armenius said:
Agreed. The only reason I don't think they'll be localizing Mother 3 is because there never was a big audience for the original in the US. It only sold around 100k units on the SNES. Despite the clamor for a return to the West, those are the vocal minority. I recall renting Earthbound as a kid and it never captured my interest. I tried it again as an adult and it held my interest as little as it did for me as a kid.
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I don't disagree with you that Nintendo has gotten a lot better on the censorship card, especially in the last 10 years. What bothers me big-time though are videos like this and the way that Nintendo treats its hardest core fans in the name of "fighting piracy".



New Super Mario Bros Wii sold gangbangers and it was a multiplayer-centric game that obviously would not have been fun to play on an emulator. Honestly, this guy leaking the game early probably boosted sales of legit NSMB copies by building hype, but instead of giving him a warning Nintendo puts some kid in his mom's basement that made a dumb decision into bankruptcy and ruins his life. I used to be one of the biggest Ninty fans on the planet and I gave that company thousands of dollars over the decades, but every time I see video's like this or news about some poor, un-wise individual that ran a ROM site that made practically no profit getting sued for millions by Nintendo I stop seeing that awsome joy-filled game company and see something that I don't want to support anymore. I am sure that all companies do this to some degree, but it seems like Nintendo is 10x more obsessed about it than anybody else.

Nintendo was definitely looking at localizing Mother 3 back in 2015 when Earthbound Origins got localized on the Wii U (the ugly little brother of Earthbound and Mother 3 that was really a lackluster RPG by comparison and which only the hardest core Earthbound fans would actually play). It's well known that there is controversial content in Mother 3 that many people today (myself NOT included) consider stererotypical and offensive and which is an integral part of the game's story. The rumor is that Nintendo was trying to localize it with censorship but found that there was too much, the amount of censorship needed was high and would probably p*ss off Earthbound fans and so they canned the project but went ahead with Earthbound Origins anyway. The point I am trying to make is that we can be grateful to the ROM-hacking/emulation community for having access to this gem. It will almost certainly not come to the west in a legitimate way in our lifetime (and I am not necessarily blaming Nintendo for this, movies like Bubble Boy and probably a quarter of the 90's Simpsons episodes would not see the light of day if released today either).

jbltecnicspro said:​

Same. I still have some credit in the Wii U eshop and every now and then I get tempted to buy earthbound. And I can never get myself to do it.

​

I personally recommend it. The eShop is going offline soon and so if you need use up some credits, you might want to look at it. The Wii U was where I first played this game as well and it was possibly the greatest RPG that I have ever played. It's a quirky-weird game that deals with some very relevant and poignant issues. (Light spoilers)
I didn't really get into the game until I got to the second town that had the cult problem. It was just something that was relevant to society and seeing it framed inside an RPG and where you, the hero, has to clean it up was just such a weird and compelling experience
 
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Honestly, this guy leaking the game early probably boosted sales of legit NSMB copies by building hype
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1) Don't know that and 2) even if true, it's not up to this guy/kid to be the one to decide that it's not hi

but instead of giving him a warning Nintendo puts some kid in his mom's basement that made a dumb decision into bankruptcy and ruins his life.
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From what I understand "some kid" (a 24 year old man?) was already living in his mom's basement. And base on the comments of that video, so take that truth with whatever grain of salt as you wish, bankruptcy court in Australia does make all legal fines go away as well, so his life was hardly ruined.
 
sfsuphysics said:
1) Don't know that and 2) even if true, it's not up to this guy/kid to be the one to decide that it's not hi


From what I understand "some kid" (a 24 year old man?) was already living in his mom's basement. And base on the comments of that video, so take that truth with whatever grain of salt as you wish, bankruptcy court in Australia does make all legal fines go away as well, so his life was hardly ruined.
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I am not making a legal argument against Nintendo, legally they have the right to enforce the law and the law was on their side with this. That doesn't necessarily make it moral and it doesn't make it wrong for me to want to boycott them. A giant crushing a little guy is terrible optics and is one of the many reasons why I detest big business in general. This wasn't some organized effort to subvert Nintendo's profits, it was some naive young fan who had the mental maturity of a teenager giving into peer pressure and doing something stupid.

The truth is that when it comes to suing small people in bankruptcy, Nintendo leads the way in the video game industry and I do not want anything to do with a company that holds that title. On one hand, I do not condone violating copyright law on the part of these individuals but on the other hand I do not consider this moral conduct on the part of Nintendo to grind them into the ground. The difference is that Nintendo is big enough to take the higher path like so many other gaming companies out there are doing to a much greater degree compared to Nintendo.

As far as bankruptcy not being a big deal, try getting a mortgage or a loan after that happens to you. Heck, even finding a minimum wage job after a high profile case like this would have probably been hard for the guy. In my view, a few thousand dollars and some community service would have been an adequate punishment for the individual and for the crime. Again, I am not making a legal argument, just a moral one (I am sure that big companies that run slave factories in China are also following the laws of the parent country, doesn't mean that I have to support them though).
 
Armenius said:
"As gamers, we know how piracy negatively affects the gaming industry..." - Citation needed.
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Yes piracy hurts gaming because if it wasn't for piracy there would be no DRM like Denuvo, and Denuvo costs money to implement so the game devs end up making less money, and restricts those who actually have to use games with it even if by a bit, therefore piracy hurt the industry
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yes piracy hurts gaming because if it wasn't for piracy there would be no DRM like Denuvo, and Denuvo costs money to implement so the game devs end up making less money, and restricts those who actually have to use games with it even if by a bit, therefore piracy hurt the industry
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Nintendo doesn't offer their games on PC so of course PC gamers find a way. You can also argue that higher game prices have pushed people to pirate, which pushed companies to spend more on DRM to prevent piracy and justify their higher prices. So of course pirates get better at piracy while companies get better at selling you the game in pieces with DRM and micro-transactions. It's a wonder why companies even raise prices when it ultimately will cost them more. Look at the situation with Baldur's Gate 3 where other developers are asking games not to judge their games on Baldur's Gate 3 standards. A game that is easily game of the game, has no DLC or micro-transactions and costs $60 which is cheaper than Demon Souls remake for PS5. The gaming industry thinks they had gamers finally accepting mobile gaming tactics and Baldur's Gate 3 reminds them that nobody wants this crap in their paid games. Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't even have DRM and it's already the top selling game on Steam.


View: https://youtu.be/zvPkAYT6B1Q?si=dNwwFEso2yyxr7nx
 
I don't blame Nintendo after what happened for Tears of the Kingdom. I wouldn't have anticipated that a big brand new AAA title would play significantly better on an emulator than the actual system. From Nintendo's PoV - it's a bit of a nightmare. DRM has been getting better. I'm at the point where I don't see value in taking a side when it comes to the gaming industry versus pirates. What matters is that there's a natural order to things. Developers and publishers who create quality games in good faith usually will see reciprocation of support and respect from the community. Meanwhile those developers and publishers which make decisions that undermine the trust and respect of their customers will see retaliation from pirates. In the end, people support the games, developers, and publishers that they want to support. If they don't want to support you, DRM can't force them.

FWIW I'm someone who played Tears of the Kingdom without supporting Nintendo, and if I was required to support Nintendo to play the game, I'd be perfectly happy simply not playing it. Under no circumstances would I have purchased the game, DRM or not.
 
t1337duder said:
I don't blame Nintendo after what happened for Tears of the Kingdom. I wouldn't have anticipated that a big brand new AAA title would play significantly better on an emulator than the actual system.
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So what exactly happened? Didnt Nintendo sell more copies of the game the first month of release than any other Nintendo game in the history if Nintendo?

Damn piracy sucks
 
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