Denuvo says its new kernel-level anti-cheat driver is minimally invasive

erek

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“No monitoring or data collection happens outside of multiplayer matches.”

""No piece of software, especially an anti-cheat, should have kernel-level access to your system and if it is we should have been informed before purchasing it," Reddit user extant_dinero wrote in a popular thread on the Doom subreddit urging people to delete the game. "I would not have purchased it had I known it would be added. Just because other pieces of software do it doesn't make it right."

But Greshishchev tells Ars such fear is misplaced. Denuvo Anti-Cheat is "designed to be no different than Nvidia's graphic drivers or Steam's Client Service," he said. "Unlike anti-cheats of the past, there are no filesystem hooks, no requirement to start with the OS, no annoying tray icons or splash screens."

"It's human nature to have a fear of the unknown, and no amount of technical claims by us could address that. Trust is built up over time, and we think that when Denuvo Anti-Cheat bans a player in your favorite game, we will gain your trust.""


https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...rnel-driver-is-safer-than-others-denuvo-says/
 

M76

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I don't fear denuvo, I just don't like your business, period.
Your business is monitoring people. Whether intended or unintended you gain access to a lot of personal information.

And don't try to pin this on an unreasonable fear of the unknown, you leave people in the unknown exactly because if you told them what your software does in detail, they would have a reason to fear it.
 

DrDoU

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trust,safer than others.pack of liers. they spy just like everyone else.
 

deruberhanyok

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I’d normally say “don’t buy it if you don’t like it” but this was added after people bought it.

I think it’s a material change that would have affected the purchasing decision for a lot of people, and it should mean anyone who wants to can get a full refund, regardless of time played. And that money needs to come right back out of Bethesda’s bank account.
 

bonehead123

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there are no filesystem hooks, no requirement to start with the OS, no annoying tray icons or splash screens.
If this is true (which I doubt), then why does it need kernel-level access in the 1st place ???? OH DO TELL !

I'm no programmer, but I do know what kernel access is and what can be done with it, so I count myself as fornunate to NOT be a gamer and therfore not be subjected to such totally obscene bullcrap :)
 

Gorankar

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Bethesda net requirement was already a no buy for me. So they are just adding another layer to insure I am never tempted. I never would have played the tacked on MP portion of Doom Eternal anyway. Getting tired of predominately SP games being treated as games as a service. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's to facilitate micro transactions, and that ship has sailed. I guess I will wait until a competently fixed version is available then buy it and use the fixed version same as I did for FO4.
 

Lakados

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If this is true (which I doubt), then why does it need kernel-level access in the 1st place ???? OH DO TELL !

I'm no programmer, but I do know what kernel access is and what can be done with it, so I count myself as fornunate to NOT be a gamer and therfore not be subjected to such totally obscene bullcrap :)
Cheaters have gotten good and many of the cheating tools out there are running at that level making most forms of detection useless. I want to hate Denuvo on this but I hate cheaters more they ruin everything. I wish there was somebody out there running a cheaters database. Like a spam blacklist service but filled with filthy cheaters instead. Get caught somewhere get blacklisted everywhere would make things interesting.
 
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M76

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Cheaters have gotten good and many of the cheating tools out there are running at that level making most forms of detection useless.
Still I'd make it opt in. You want to play on official servers, you must install it, but if you play single player then just skip it. That would be acceptable. But of course we all know that the real product is the information they collect about the players through their servers. SO they want you to connect even if you never touch competitive multiplayer.
 

Lakados

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Still I'd make it opt in. You want to play on official servers, you must install it, but if you play single player then just skip it. That would be acceptable. But of course we all know that the real product is the information they collect about the players through their servers. SO they want you to connect even if you never touch competitive multiplayer.
Yeah..... That would be acceptable. But like always the honest gamer gets the shortest end of the stick.
 

travm

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Cheaters have gotten good and many of the cheating tools out there are running at that level making most forms of detection useless. I want to hate Denuvo on this but I hate cheaters more they ruin everything. I wish there was somebody out there running a cheaters database. Like a spam blacklist service but filled with filthy cheaters instead. Get caught somewhere get blacklisted everywhere would make things interesting.
Having been banned in BF2 (battlefield, not battlefront), and subsequently banned from all ranked servers running GCC (all of them), while not actually having installed any hack, exploit, or cheating in any way. This global blacklist thing does not get my support. I dont have a better solution. You despise cheaters, but how about being banned from ever gaming again because of a false positive? or a bug (in software? unimaginable).
Trying to have my account unblacklisted was impossible. I just never played BF2 again, and got over it.
 

Lakados

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Having been banned in BF2 (battlefield, not battlefront), and subsequently banned from all ranked servers running GCC (all of them), while not actually having installed any hack, exploit, or cheating in any way. This global blacklist thing does not get my support. I dont have a better solution. You despise cheaters, but how about being banned from ever gaming again because of a false positive? or a bug (in software? unimaginable).
Trying to have my account unblacklisted was impossible. I just never played BF2 again, and got over it.
Well spam lists off you a way to get off them, just each time you end up on it the process takes longer.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Still I'd make it opt in. You want to play on official servers, you must install it, but if you play single player then just skip it. That would be acceptable. But of course we all know that the real product is the information they collect about the players through their servers. SO they want you to connect even if you never touch competitive multiplayer.
If they were honest enough to have it load if and only if the player launches into a multiplayer game that requires anti-cheat, then rock on.

But installing what amounts to a universal backdoor into the guts of the OS after the game released raises to the level of several no-gos. Lawsuits should flow from this.
 

Gigantopithecus

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I’d normally say “don’t buy it if you don’t like it” but this was added after people bought it.

I think it’s a material change that would have affected the purchasing decision for a lot of people, and it should mean anyone who wants to can get a full refund, regardless of time played. And that money needs to come right back out of Bethesda’s bank account.
This is what I said in my refund request. It was denied.

I like both the Fallout and Elder Scrolls franchises but I doubt I'll buy another Bethesda title if they don't fix this fuckup. Minimally, you should not be required to run an anticheat if you do not play MP.
 

ChadD

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I hate that company.... one of the reasons Linux gaming can't really take off. No way any Linux distro is handing over direct kernel access to user land software.

Their are other better ways to do anti cheat... but its a perfect excuse to allow your software to do things it should not be able to do. Its like patriot act type laws, no one gives up the power once they have suckered people into giving it up. That and these anti cheat software companies are almost always started by previous bad actor types... people that have had periods of their life where they where not legally allowed to touch a computer. Programming kernel hooking crap is what they know best.
 
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travm

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Well spam lists off you a way to get off them, just each time you end up on it the process takes longer.
So the blacklist is ok, as long as we offer people a way to get off them? Seems kind of pointless then. I have 0 faith in current anti-cheat, or the companies that sell them.
 

filip

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Hey they are not the only ones doing this, link

A bug bounty program to find vulnerabilities right after it comes out. Sounds just like specter and meltdown bounty programs, but right from release = not good.

This might be the ultimate root kit.
 

Lakados

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So the blacklist is ok, as long as we offer people a way to get off them? Seems kind of pointless then. I have 0 faith in current anti-cheat, or the companies that sell them.
Well first spam offence takes like 24h to get it removed, then it moves up to 3d, 7d, 30d, 90d 180d, 1y. Each time you manage to get your domain blacklisted it creeps up. And if you manage to go like a full year I think it is between infractions you get reset back to 0. It works as a pretty good system for blocking spammers so maybe something like it could be tweaked for gaming?

it gives people who actually are false positives enough time to get off the list and figure out what they were doing that flagged them to begin with with out loosing it entirely but serial cheaters who just create new accounts or just move to a new game would be punished.
You could take it a step further and give them a notice that they are a suspected cheater and let them play anyways but only with other suspected cheaters.
You would still need some services running to check for cheats and exploits but if you were to run it as a service maybe something the studios had to subscribe too or found the right group of open source contributors it could be a thing.
Point is yeah I don’t trust current anti cheat people but get the right group behind it running the show they could find a way to keep it funded in a way that wasn’t reliant on storing or analyzing personal data and keep the analytics strictly to cheat/exploit detection.
 

odditory

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Cheaters have gotten good and many of the cheating tools out there are running at that level making most forms of detection useless. I want to hate Denuvo on this but I hate cheaters more they ruin everything. I wish there was somebody out there running a cheaters database. Like a spam blacklist service but filled with filthy cheaters instead. Get caught somewhere get blacklisted everywhere would make things interesting.
You're not understanding the business model. The goal is to sell videogames, not police morality and ensure no one ever cheats in a game ever again.

Obviously you don't want your game completely overrun by cheaters, but data sharing between companies isn't of much interest if it would cost sales.

Meaning someone cheats in company A's game, well company B does not give a shit because they'd rather sell a copy of their game.
 
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bizzmeister

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Cheating is never going away in online PC gaming. It’s never going away. It’s shit but it is what it is



Please get that through your thick skulls. Fucking hell.

Play on your Xbox One X or PS4 Pro and your literally a million times less likely to get a cheater/hacker


Anyone else think otherwise has no idea what they are saying.
 

odditory

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Cheating is never going away in online PC gaming. It’s never going away. It’s shit but it is what it is



Please get that through your thick skulls. Fucking hell.

Play on your Xbox One X or PS4 Pro and your literally a million times less likely to get a cheater/hacker


Anyone else think otherwise has no idea what they are saying.
And I hate to say it but if you're good at a game, if you're dedicated to it like putting hundreds of hours in, the occasional cheaters don't actually matter. They are irrelevant to the meta. In my experience, the loudest screams about HaXx were casuals, bad players, and people that don't even play the game.

Example 500-800 hours across BF3 and BF4 playing in clans and random pub servers - you have more of the "view from above" - and the occasional blatant botter or even suspected closet-botter was good for a momentary laugh, but didn't change anything. Never bright enough to be dangerous.
 
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It's not "minimally invasive" if it runs in ring0 - fuck denuvo and by extension any morally bankrupt asshole who works there.
All we need are dedicated servers again - but that prevents rampant data collection, spyware, and micro-transactions.
Oh wait - those are all things we do not want or need in a _videogame_.
 

Staples

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The number of cheaters on PC FPS is getting ridiculous these days. If this can help with that problem, then I am all for it.

We talk about whether consoles are going to lead to the demise of PC gaming, I think all the damn cheaters in games I play is.
 

PhaseNoise

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The number of cheaters on PC FPS is getting ridiculous these days. If this can help with that problem, then I am all for it.

We talk about whether consoles are going to lead to the demise of PC gaming, I think all the damn cheaters in games I play is.
I have no confidence that this will really fix anything. It just moves the arms race up in the priv stack to where I would least like it to occur.
 

DrDoU

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Just a matter of time before someone takes a serious look at consoles and does the same thing. Where there is a will there is a way
 

deruberhanyok

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This is what I said in my refund request. It was denied.

I like both the Fallout and Elder Scrolls franchises but I doubt I'll buy another Bethesda title if they don't fix this fuckup. Minimally, you should not be required to run an anticheat if you do not play MP.
I’d check consumer protection laws in your state. It’s a small claim if you took it to court but essentially you bought a product and then had invasive software get installed, well after the fact, without your permission, and you weren’t given an opportunity to opt out and/or get a refund.

I don’t see how they could deny it seeing as how it’s such a major change to the product.

and like you said, don’t buy any more Bethesda games.

It’s easy to avoid buying a game if it’s listed up front but this is tough when they add it after the fact. If people just roll over and take it expect them to just keep doing it.
It's not "minimally invasive" if it runs in ring0 - fuck denuvo and by extension any morally bankrupt asshole who works there.
All we need are dedicated servers again - but that prevents rampant data collection, spyware, and micro-transactions.
Oh wait - those are all things we do not want or need in a _videogame_.
I do miss dedicated servers.
 
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