Denuvo Blames Gamer Toxicity for DRM Protection Hate

Lakados said:
You can but sadly when you do, it shows that DRM helps, because the games that have DRM have gone on to be huge sellers, but is that because the DRM did it's job or because it was attached to a game that was going to be huge anyways because.
Like if there was suddenly a new Gears of War game, and it had DRM. Did the DRM contribute to the sales, or is it the fact that its a new Gears of War game itself.

Then somebody release a similar game, without DRM, how can you limit out the consumers other factors, did they get the game because they like GoW, did they not get the game because it was a cheap copy of said GoW game, was it price, what other games came out at that time, was it buggy, etc..

If anything the best bet would be to train an AI by feeding it game consumer data, to build a series of algorithms that see itself as various stages of gamer ranging from casual to no-lifer, then see if it starts making decisions based on DRM and pirateability of titles.
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One thing missed in this discussion, and if I recall correctly it's what Denuvo did in their own "study," is that one of the conditionals in analyzing the data is assuming that every pirated copy is a lost sale. You cannot make that assumption. Even if you calculate for a variable range in how many pirated copies were actually lost sales versus not, that is still going to circle back to more variables that you can't control. There are so many reasons a person may pirate a video game depending on the game itself, whether or not it's political or protest, or they simply don't want to spend money on it. And that is just a few of the obvious ones that popped into my head.
 
Armenius said:
conditionals
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You're messing with my brain. Not saying you're wrong, but in my experience conditionals is often used in programming context and I don't think ive seen it used in data analysis context before (or if i did it broke me then too)...

Again, you're not wrong...just my brain
 
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A study where any of the data points is based on an assumption is as worthless as the paper it is written on.
 
1.1.2.3.5... said:
You're messing with my brain. Not saying you're wrong, but in my experience conditionals is often used in programming context and I don't think ive seen it used in data analysis context before (or if i did it broke me then too)...

Again, you're not wrong...just my brain
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Well, my education is in programming, not analytics.
 
1.1.2.3.5... said:
You're not like all my other dev buddies that want to insist they're data scientists because they worked through some canned pytorch lesson? 😆
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The best part is my job title says I'm a data analyst 🤣. I fell into this line of work starting out as a volunteer after the 2008 recession. I guess I impressed my predecessor with my ability to build out data, work the numbers, and spot trends. I at least don't pretend to formally know anything about analytics. I just try to logically work things out.
 
d3athf1sh said:
yeah it makes you wonder how nintendo, sega and all the game devs ever made any money back in the 80's and 90's when we use to borrow/lend games to friends and family or just rented games for the weekend for a couple of bucks? really the fact of the matter is it's just companies being greedy. that's why they want all the sales to be digital so there's no way to lend games anymore.

same goes for movies. and all the people on here complaining about pirating i bet use to rent movies for a couple bucks back in the day and have a bunch of people over to watch it. weren't you breaking the rules by doing a "public showing" how did the movie companies ever survive that? heck if you had two vcr's you could even dub the movie while you were watching it. same with cassette tapes. man things were great. you never had to listen to anyone complaining about stuff like that back then.
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But back then games cost a pittance to develope compared to today, so making back the development costs and make a profit was much easier.
 
Eivind68 said:
But back then games cost a pittance to develope compared to today, so making back the development costs and make a profit was much easier.
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Development creep is a real thing, it’s left games trying to do too much with teams that are too large to manage effectively which balloon costs leaving many AAA titles in a place where they are either hits, or you never make your costs back.
It’s left us with empty “open world” games, with shit crafting systems, and random loot tables that are overwhelmingly sub par.

It’s a sad result of investor “growth” benchmarks and publishers gaming the system for money. Another case of their product being their stock and the games a delivery vehicle of those stocks.
 
I am very conflicted....
In a surprise move EA DIDN'T put Denuvo on the new Dragon Age.
Now is that because they don't want it or because they realized the game isn't worth stealing.
In either event, this is good news for us?
And maybe a sign that Denuvo needs to do better.
 
Lakados said:
Development creep is a real thing, it’s left games trying to do too much with teams that are too large to manage effectively which balloon costs leaving many AAA titles in a place where they are either hits, or you never make your costs back.
It’s left us with empty “open world” games, with shit crafting systems, and random loot tables that are overwhelmingly sub par.

It’s a sad result of investor “growth” benchmarks and publishers gaming the system for money. Another case of their product being their stock and the games a delivery vehicle of those stocks.
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And with the added cost comes a fear of taking any chances, so you end up with the same boring games without any innovation or personality.
 
vegeta535 said:
Why do games cost so much to developer now tho? The actual developers make crap. Do they really need the 1000+ employees that are listed in the end credits? I bet a bunch are over paid redundant manager jobs. I bet they could pull a Elon and cut at least 50%.
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I remember back in the 80's when I first started with home computers, many of the games I played were made by one guy. Sometimes that guy would be me, as I spent hours typing in games listed in magazines. 👾👾👾
But now, as you say, you could need hundreds of people due to all the work needed for music, sound effects, graphics, dialog, NPC AI, and so on to make a AAA game, not to mention ads and promo.

I'm sure you could cut some management overhead, but overall they would still be hugely expensive undertakings.
 
vegeta535 said:
Why do games cost so much to developer now tho? The actual developers make crap. Do they really need the 1000+ employees that are listed in the end credits? I bet a bunch are over paid redundant manager jobs. I bet they could pull a Elon and cut at least 50%.
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Here's the thing, investors invest all this money into the developer right, so how does the developer show some investment firm that it's using that money to do something, you can't really show them something that doesn't work or looks like shit that is still 2-3 years out from being released and expect them to be impressed.
The method investment firms use for measuring their investment is doing something is employee growth, and it's mostly an automated process.
So investors invest money, developers hire people with said money, investors see employee growth with a delivery date, their boxes are checked so their money is being well spent and they can expect a nice return.
Rince and repeat.

This came to a head during COVID, when the investors were throwing money at developers and publishers, so they hired like mad, and now that things have gone back to "normal" the game market has dipped a little and those studios are having to fire like mad to match the incoming investment.

This is a result of Developers and Publishers gaming the Investment algorithms for funding, and it's one of those vicious loops that creates a bubble that will burst which results in mass layoffs and a claw back on project scope, all things we are currently seeing.

All things Epic and Nvidia also saw, and they spent their time during COVID building the tools that the developers could fall back on when the money dried up and things got tough.
 
Eivind68 said:
I remember back in the 80's when I first started with home computers, many of the games I played were made by one guy. Sometimes that guy would be me, as I spent hours typing in games listed in magazines. 👾👾👾
But now, as you say, you could need hundreds of people due to all the work needed for music, sound effects, graphics, dialog, NPC AI, and so on to make a AAA game, not to mention ads and promo.

I'm sure you could cut some management overhead, but overall they would still be hugely expensive undertakings.
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Precisely. If you want games that look/sound like they do now, it is gonna take a lot of people to do. That doesn't mean that is what we should demand or expect. It would probably be healthy to scale games back and make them less photorealistic, with less voice acting, and so on but at a lower cost. There are plenty of indy/Alt-A games like that where it isn't just one guy making them, it is a team, but a smaller team and it shows in the final product, but they are still good products.

But don't think there's a magic way to make them cheaper, with less people AND have no difference in the final product. All that art takes lots of artists, those detailed levels take lots of designers, those voices take actors and sound engineers and so on. You can't just say "get rid of half or more of them but keep the output the same!" It won't happen.
 
Sycraft said:
Precisely. If you want games that look/sound like they do now, it is gonna take a lot of people to do. That doesn't mean that is what we should demand or expect. It would probably be healthy to scale games back and make them less photorealistic, with less voice acting, and so on but at a lower cost. There are plenty of indy/Alt-A games like that where it isn't just one guy making them, it is a team, but a smaller team and it shows in the final product, but they are still good products.

But don't think there's a magic way to make them cheaper, with less people AND have no difference in the final product. All that art takes lots of artists, those detailed levels take lots of designers, those voices take actors and sound engineers and so on. You can't just say "get rid of half or more of them but keep the output the same!" It won't happen.
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I'm sure that games with full fancy graphics have a place. but the empty open worlds, bad quests, etc., should be addressed too. Video game companies need better writers.
 
1_rick said:
I'm sure that games with full fancy graphics have a place. but the empty open worlds, bad quests, etc., should be addressed too. Video game companies need better writers.
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Well... some of it is writers but it is also cost of implementation. The more custom and detailed the quest, the more work it takes to implement. A simple fetch quest is real easy, in fact it can be (and is in some games) implemented such that the game engine can generate them on the fly itself. A detailed quest with a good story, interesting options, good world integration, etc takes a LOT more effort and not just writing.

So the bigger the world is, the more of same-y nothing it has to have. If everything is just procedurally generated you can have a world as big as you like. No Man's Sky is a great example. You have literal universes to explore... but it is all same-y procedural stuff. There's not a lot of custom, special, things to do. On the other hand if you want an experience where everything is curated, everything is meaningful, you can have that, but then tend to be much, MUCH smaller and more linear because it all takes more work.

Also, with things like writing, you can't just squeeze more out of people. Creative process takes time, even the best writers can't be told "Just give me more interesting story and have it by tomorrow!" It takes time for inspiration to strike and to work things out and make them great, even for the best people, and of course not everyone can get the best people as there are only so many of them.
 
Sycraft said:
Well... some of it is writers but it is also cost of implementation. The more custom and detailed the quest, the more work it takes to implement. A simple fetch quest is real easy, in fact it can be (and is in some games) implemented such that the game engine can generate them on the fly itself. A detailed quest with a good story, interesting options, good world integration, etc takes a LOT more effort and not just writing.
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I guess I should say that here, I was specifically thinking of crappy dialog. But yeah, I'd like to see quests that are less dumb. Think of all those quests in WoW where you have to kill someone who's possessed because there's no way to unpossess them. I haven't played in a few years but IIRC usually when you'd kill the NPC, they'd say something suggesting they were sorry they did bad stuff, or were glad you freed them or whatever. But that means that they got free of the possession! Maybe work on figuring how to do that without killing them? It's just lazy.
 
Sycraft said:
Precisely. If you want games that look/sound like they do now, it is gonna take a lot of people to do. That doesn't mean that is what we should demand or expect. It would probably be healthy to scale games back and make them less photorealistic, with less voice acting, and so on but at a lower cost.
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I would just say make the game shorter. I'd rather have a short excellent game with high quality than a long mediocre game that wastes my time with low quality.
 
Lakados said:
I am very conflicted....
In a surprise move EA DIDN'T put Denuvo on the new Dragon Age.
Now is that because they don't want it or because they realized the game isn't worth stealing.
In either event, this is good news for us?
And maybe a sign that Denuvo needs to do better.
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Probably because they knew nobody would play it otherwise. Do you see the stuff coming out of it?
f0ea74d6a47b10478551d13f4c25c44b580b6446507fa138_1.jpg
 
DukenukemX said:
Probably because they knew nobody would play it otherwise. Do you see the stuff coming out of it?
View attachment 689477
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I see the stuff but memes out of context are misleading at best, but the dialog I have seen of the videos online is straight cringe-worthy, I am told the main story is great, it is the side quest to get to know your companion's that are utter garbage and supposedly worse than old D.A.R.E videos from the '90s.

I still haven't gotten around to CP2077, and I have a few awesome titles between it and this so who knows, if it goes on Steam Sale for $19.99 I'll snag it. I mean I have all the others, but I am not paying full price for this.
 
Very confused, how does Denuvo make games perform worst? Isn’t it just a key with your hardware and game that authenticates its use on your machine? The game looks at this key and if good runs. Why would it have to consume any resources after that? What else does it do? Is it the developer that is causing a frequent verification of the key or token?
 
I've seen multiple analyses about Denuvo perf, either via an earlier build that didn't have it or via a crack, with some finding it has negligible to no performance impact in gameplay but does on loading times.

While for some implementations it being integrated so poorly it has more significant gameplay impact (since Denuvo gets integrated with game code it varies how devs incorporate it, as it's not some wrapper).

A couple examples of good implementations (ie: little to no impact):
- Durante's analysis of FF15 (Dark Souls modder, also ran game porting company)
- Analysis of Hogwart's Legacy with personally reverse engineered Denuvo bypass
 
noko said:
Very confused, how does Denuvo make games perform worst? Isn’t it just a key with your hardware and game that authenticates its use on your machine? The game looks at this key and if good runs. Why would it have to consume any resources after that? What else does it do? Is it the developer that is causing a frequent verification of the key or token?
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It is a lot more complicated than that.
 
noko said:
Very confused, how does Denuvo make games perform worst? Isn’t it just a key with your hardware and game that authenticates its use on your machine? The game looks at this key and if good runs. Why would it have to consume any resources after that? What else does it do? Is it the developer that is causing a frequent verification of the key or token?
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If it were just a key the software would be cracked in no time. It needs to be obfuscated and, of course, paranoid inc. would also very much like to have it checked regularly, preferably real-time. Add to that your average inefficiencies, bugs, etc...
 
noko said:
Very confused, how does Denuvo make games perform worst? Isn’t it just a key with your hardware and game that authenticates its use on your machine? The game looks at this key and if good runs. Why would it have to consume any resources after that? What else does it do? Is it the developer that is causing a frequent verification of the key or token?
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There are different implementations, IIRC; and how the developer hooks it can also cause problems. I think I recall one egregious case where Denuvo was in use but the developer had put the Denuvo hook to check inside a loop that got fired off by player action, so it was going off many times a second.

So Denuvo does have a measurable impact, but that impact can be minimal or quite severe depending on what the developer did.
 
So it comes back to how the developer implements Denuvo more than anything else. I take it more of an after thought vice being better integrated with the game from the ground up. If the case, the developer shares the poor results.
 
noko said:
So it comes back to how the developer implements Denuvo more than anything else. I take it more of an after thought vice being better integrated with the game from the ground up. If the case, the developer shares the poor results.
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That's a good summary, yes.
 
Flogger23m said:
I would just say make the game shorter. I'd rather have a short excellent game with high quality than a long mediocre game that wastes my time with low quality.
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The Tomb Raider reboot games are a perfect example of this. The first one was shorter but with a very tight story that kept me wanting to play. Each game after got longer with more time wasting quests and annoying time wasting crafting which resulted in being boring. I played all three back to back and by the time I got to Shadow of the Tomb Raider I was more than happy when it came time to take breaks.
 
noko said:
Very confused, how does Denuvo make games perform worst? Isn’t it just a key with your hardware and game that authenticates its use on your machine? The game looks at this key and if good runs. Why would it have to consume any resources after that? What else does it do? Is it the developer that is causing a frequent verification of the key or token?
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Denuvo takes a 16MB or 50MB executable and then turns it into a 200MB or 300MB file. It's filled with garbage data meant to confuse any would be crackers in trying to remove it. It has multiple encryption layers and anti debugging to prevent anyone from reading their code or trace it through a debugger. This isn't exactly light on the CPU and hurts the games performance. This is why Denuvo is fine on beefy hardware, but punishes those with weaker hardware.

"Ontop of using the token to decrypt values, Denuvo regularly verifies the hardware features for the fingerprint still match with the token, at runtime."

https://momo5502.com/posts/2024-03-31-bypassing-denuvo-in-hogwarts-legacy/

Lakados said:
I see the stuff but memes out of context are misleading at best, but the dialog I have seen of the videos online is straight cringe-worthy, I am told the main story is great, it is the side quest to get to know your companion's that are utter garbage and supposedly worse than old D.A.R.E videos from the '90s.
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It gets worse than that.

View: https://youtu.be/iDeJsPYXEEs?si=4zn57576LDxB6Smc
I still haven't gotten around to CP2077, and I have a few awesome titles between it and this so who knows, if it goes on Steam Sale for $19.99 I'll snag it. I mean I have all the others, but I am not paying full price for this.
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Games take a long time to play and I have a lot of games I haven't gotten around to. I'd rather go play Dragon Age Origin's where the characters have... huge tracks of land.
 
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