Dell will not ship Gaming PCs to these states

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SLee

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It's simple, they won't be able to support them. They would need to spend well over a trillion dollars starting right now to have even a small glimmer of hope of supporting a tiny percentage of the state using EVs by 2034. They'd need dozens of new high capacity power plants and to replace basically every part of the entire power grid. But even assuming they pulled that off, and it'd never happen, they'd just be moving pollution from one area to another. They'll probably start to have to gobble up power from outside the state from whoever will sell it to them.
Imports already make up a considerable share of California supply in the evening and morning.

Vg0R2Gy.png
 

Bigbacon

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The Alienware systems are still using ATX PSU's from what I have seen and not the new 12vo spec, so it doesn't meet the low power standby requirements unless that is a top-end Platinum PSU in there which let's face it they aren't.

is this the whole issue just standby power requirements?
 

Mchart

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Dell won't be the only one with this issue. It'll only get worse. Even more so with the demand on the grid increasing with the EV shift.

My guess is Dell is one of the first impacted due to their size, and as is typical, most regulations like this these days are only directed at normal citizens since we have no one lobbying for us.
 

DanNeely

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The Alienware systems are still using ATX PSU's from what I have seen and not the new 12vo spec, so it doesn't meet the low power standby requirements unless that is a top-end Platinum PSU in there which let's face it they aren't.
That was my first thought too. Seeing one in GN's Alienware review (linked elsewhere in the thread) surprised me though; since I thought Dell was one of the big OEMs whose proprietary 12VO setups were behind Intel's push to consolidate on a single industry wide implementation.
 

Wat

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Maybe those states should instead mandate that computers power off after some period of inactivity.

Having lived through the windows 95/98 days, rebooting once a day has never been a problem for me...
 

Mchart

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Maybe those states should instead mandate that computers power off after some period of inactivity.

Having lived through the windows 95/98 days, rebooting once a day has never been a problem for me...
It would be nice instead to focus on fixing up their energy grid for the increased demand due to the regulations mandating EV's moving forward.

In a decade no one will be able to afford to run a computer at home anymore anyways, at this rate. The most power you'll be able to afford (or regulated into submission) will be for mobile stuff. The plebeians shouldn't be able to use their power freely if they can afford it.
 

travm

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Yeah, but there are ways you can further disincentivize high use through various methods.

Most commmon is probably the tiered approach. The first 600KWh per month are super cheap per KwH. Then each tier after that gets increasingly expensive. Sort of like tax brackets.
Ontario did that, then the govt scolded Ontarians for not using enough electricity and they had to sell contacted power already purchased at a loss and then raise electricity rates something like 20%.
I have a particularly large distaste for large government, they often claim to be all-knowing, yet are hypocritical at almost every turn. Much better to make electricity cost what it must via supply and demand, and if you want to be forward thinking, subsidize familys and people who need the assistance to afford the power. But what do I know.
 

Mchart

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Then you need to get a new job because you are destroying the planet, stop being selfish and go live in a box.
You literally have no idea what his situation is. For all you know he's 100% grid independent at his house. If idiots hadn't walked us away from nuclear power decades ago, none of this would even be an issue. But here we are. Increasing grid prices, and our only solution is fossil fuel, which is being regulated out of existence, or renewables, which is mathematically impossible to meet the demands.

Finally, if you cared so much about the planet, you wouldn't even be posting on this forum. The electrons used to get your data to the Hardforum servers is just destroying the planet, right? So what are you doing here?
 

SilverSliver

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You literally have no idea what his situation is. For all you know he's 100% grid independent at his house. If idiots hadn't walked us away from nuclear power decades ago, none of this would even be an issue. But here we are. Increasing grid prices, and our only solution is fossil fuel, which is being regulated out of existence, or renewables, which is mathematically impossible to meet the demands.

Finally, if you cared so much about the planet, you wouldn't even be posting on this forum. The electrons used to get your data to the Hardforum servers is just destroying the planet, right? So what are you doing here?

Imagine owning a house that all the materials used were from murdering the planet and using literal third world slaves to satiate your capitalistic and materialistic fetishes. There is a simple three step plan to saving the planet.

Step 1 - Don't exist, if you could not even manage to do step 1 properly, stop making more people and go to step 2.
Step 2 - You can own one thing - a hand powered blender to smooth out a diet derived primarily from recycled, sustainably harvested dirt
Step 3 - Don't question people making the rules
 

Mchart

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Imagine owning a house that all the materials used were from murdering the planet and using literal third world slaves to satiate your capitalistic and materialistic fetishes. There is a simple three step plan to saving the planet.

Step 1 - Don't exist, if you could not even manage to do step 1 properly, stop making more people and go to step 2.
Step 2 - You can own one thing - a hand powered blender to smooth out a diet derived primarily from recycled, sustainably harvested dirt
Step 3 - Don't question people making the rules
This really means absolutely nothing coming from a guy posting on the internet. The only people I respect who have opinions like this are the real hippies living in the middle of nowhere on a farm commune that are 100% independent. Coming from you, someone posting on hardforum, it's like having Jeff Bezo's telling us to stop using electricity while he's building rockets to the moon. Why haven't you, yourself, followed your own advice with step 1?
 

SilverSliver

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This really means absolutely nothing coming from a guy posting on the internet. The only people I respect who have opinions like this are the real hippies living in the middle of nowhere on a farm commune that are 100% independent. Coming from you, someone posting on hardforum, it's like having Jeff Bezo's telling us to stop using electricity while he's building rockets to the moon.

Step 3 - Don't question people making the rules
 

OFaceSIG

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I'm so glad I left Cali when I was 18. Just like my Dad ran from Cuba at 19, I feel Cali is headed that direction. He can't return to Cuba, and I could never return to Cali. Certain folks are determined to destroy society. They will remain unnamed so I don't get dinged.
 

UltraTaco

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Dell has had the same 3-4 companies making their PSUs for decades, and they're consistently shit, so yes.

Delta, HEC, Liteon and Bestec. Basically the trashiest of the trash PSU makers. Before even considering power efficiency, they need to make them so they don't explode first.
Am sorry, but taco 750w power supply has been running g since 2008 fine no problems. Gra ted it isn't running 247, but never had it catch fire or bork something in side.

Also, why hate fir alienware computers? Taco has alienware and is nd was fantastic, except for bloody lightning. After updating firmware, leds no longer recognize computer nd think its stolen or whatever. Taco was stuck on same lightning scene that I set up literally 3 or 4 years ago. That's bonkers. Otherwise all is find!
 

Wat

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C'mon, be eco smart. Electricity is free for the taking. Ever heard of lightning? Attach a bank of batteries to a large metal pole and wait for nature to charge them.
If it isn't storming where you live, put a piece of carpet near the pole and choo-choo around it in your socks.

Together we can save the world
 

travm

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C'mon, be eco smart. Electricity is free for the taking. Ever heard of lightning? Attach a bank of batteries to a large metal pole and wait for nature to charge them.
If it isn't storming where you live, put a piece of carpet near the pole and choo-choo around it in your socks.

Together we can save the world
What if, instead of deporting illegals, we offered them a chance to choo choo around the pole 12 hrs a day for citizen ship at just under a living wage. We could save the world twice.
 

michalrz

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What if I choo choo at my house on a exercise bike with a turbine attached to it? What if I want the computer as a collector's item?
Those questions are as stupid as such a decision IMHO.

While I am not a Westerner, this is very relevant to my situation as well. We burn coal. We're facing an energetic armageddon, but most people don't realize. Only now we're designing strategies that will allow the HUGE number of people working in mining some kind of transition to other types of work or at least funding them an early retirement.

We don't have a single reactor. We don't have room for wind turbines and relatively little potential for solar.
I just tried solar, purely as a fun experiment for myself (also a bit of a prepper) - I'm producing 40WH daily from panels placed on a window sill (no roof). I can run LED lights and have some power handy for emergencies - and that's it. I can't run a Pi4 (on full load, WCG) on it 24/7, much less a media server or something.

Now, how is it my fault we're emitting CO2? Why can't we have nice things? Because the 'leaders' sat on their asses instead of developing the power grid? If I promise to stop breathing and thus reduce my carbon footprint to 0, may I please be exempt from additional 'climate' related charges to my power bill?
 

Mchart

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What if I choo choo at my house on a exercise bike with a turbine attached to it? What if I want the computer as a collector's item?
Those questions are as stupid as such a decision IMHO.

While I am not a Westerner, this is very relevant to my situation as well. We burn coal. We're facing an energetic armageddon, but most people don't realize. Only now we're designing strategies that will allow the HUGE number of people working in mining some kind of transition to other types of work or at least funding them an early retirement.

We don't have a single reactor. We don't have room for wind turbines and relatively little potential for solar.
I just tried solar, purely as a fun experiment for myself (also a bit of a prepper) - I'm producing 40WH daily from panels placed on a window sill (no roof). I can run LED lights and have some power handy for emergencies - and that's it. I can't run a Pi4 (on full load, WCG) on it 24/7, much less a media server or something.

Now, how is it my fault we're emitting CO2? Why can't we have nice things? Because the 'leaders' sat on their asses instead of developing the power grid? If I promise to stop breathing and thus reduce my carbon footprint to 0, may I please be exempt from additional 'climate' related charges to my power bill?
The average boomers basically did it to themselves, and in turn, the rest of us. They were largely the one's protesting nuclear energy as kids. Now they're going to be dying off en masse, and have left nothing for the future. If you don't have the acreage for renewables, your quality of life is going to plummet in the coming decades.
 

michalrz

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The average boomers basically did it to themselves, and in turn, the rest of us. They were largely the one's protesting nuclear energy as kids. Now they're going to be dying off en masse, and have left nothing for the future. If you don't have the acreage for renewables, your quality of life is going to plummet in the coming decades.
One good thing did come out of my 'extensive research' - I can basically make larger solar panels of weird shapes and sizes to maximize the available area, and even went vertical with one of the windows (sort of a frame attachment).
I also like how noone I know knows what ITER is but equate nuke plants to chernobyl.
 

GoodBoy

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So are we sure its just an inefficient PSU? Because if that regulations went Federal, it would be easy for Dell to fix.

Chances are, in a year Dell will no longer even sell that PSU.

If it's not the PSU, then it seems like a troubling trend.
 

Lakados

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That was my first thought too. Seeing one in GN's Alienware review (linked elsewhere in the thread) surprised me though; since I thought Dell was one of the big OEMs whose proprietary 12VO setups were behind Intel's push to consolidate on a single industry wide implementation.
Not actually that property there is a 12VO mini spec that isn’t released yet as it isn’t finalized that uses a 6 pin and not 8 and drops two signalling channels. But yes the big OEM’s have been doing their own 12VO for a while in all sorts of ways. The Alienware lineup though based on some mod projects I’ve seen looks like a standard ATX with some interesting cable management decisions to accommodate that swinging door design
 

lopoetve

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Maybe those states should instead mandate that computers power off after some period of inactivity.

Having lived through the windows 95/98 days, rebooting once a day has never been a problem for me...
That’s part of it. Sleep is required.
So are we sure its just an inefficient PSU? Because if that regulations went Federal, it would be easy for Dell to fix.

Chances are, in a year Dell will no longer even sell that PSU.

If it's not the PSU, then it seems like a troubling trend.
Most likely. They look like gold efficiency models from what I’ve seen. Need to be 12VO or platinum to be allowed; either is efficient enough.
 

lopoetve

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Not actually that property there is a 12VO mini spec that isn’t released yet as it isn’t finalized that uses a 6 pin and not 8 and drops two signalling channels. But yes the big OEM’s have been doing their own 12VO for a while in all sorts of ways. The Alienware lineup though based on some mod projects I’ve seen looks like a standard ATX with some interesting cable management decisions to accommodate that swinging door design
Yep. You’ll note that the G5 (which does have 12VO) is allowed with similar hardware.
 
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Is there a limit based on peak power consumption? There are only 2 pre-configured systems on that page without a shipping restriction, one is a 5600X with an RX 5600, and the other is an i5-11400 with a 1650 Super. Interestingly, there is a system almost identical to the latter, but with the addition of a 256GB SSD. That one IS restricted. It's as if the SSD pushed it over the limit.
 

Lakados

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is this the whole issue just standby power requirements?
Those are some specific details on efficacy at specific loads which they may or may not meet but the big one was standby power and sleep power requirements.
 

Endgame

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You literally have no idea what his situation is. For all you know he's 100% grid independent at his house. If idiots hadn't walked us away from nuclear power decades ago, none of this would even be an issue. But here we are. Increasing grid prices, and our only solution is fossil fuel, which is being regulated out of existence, or renewables, which is mathematically impossible to meet the demands.

Finally, if you cared so much about the planet, you wouldn't even be posting on this forum. The electrons used to get your data to the Hardforum servers is just destroying the planet, right? So what are you doing here?
First, on topic, I asked a buddy in Colorado who does work planning data centers, and he thinks it’s a standby efficiency thing. That’s basically what has been said so far, so it seems to check out.

As for renewables, I’ve never read a peer reviewed study that says 100% renewable is mathematically impossible. I have seen a study from around 2015 that generation could be split across solar, wind, hydro, and geo, and needs to be over provisioned to the tune of about 5 trillion dollars meet demand, and then another 2 or 3 trillion is needed for energy storage.

At a personal level, this checks out. I’ve got 9kw of solar on my roof and I basically break even over a year, but I over produce starting about feb to June, run a deficit July - august, then over produce until thanksgiving, then run a deficit Dec and Jan. If I could store 150ish KWh at home, I would only rarely pull from the grid. I would like to add another 9kw of solar, and maybe add a home wind mill (the market on these isn’t very developed though) and a geo loop for home water and maybe a separate one for water cooling the PCs. At that point, I would next buy an EV with a 100kw battery and use that as 2/3 of my storage - I’d be freaking set.
 

Lakados

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Is there a limit based on peak power consumption? There are only 2 pre-configured systems on that page without a shipping restriction, one is a 5600X with an RX 5600, and the other is an i5-11400 with a 1650 Super. Interestingly, there is a system almost identical to the latter, but with the addition of a 256GB SSD. That one IS restricted. It's as if the SSD pushed it over the limit.
Those are probably using a sub 500w PSU, rules change if you are 450 vs 550 watt. That’s probably the difference there.
 

DanNeely

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Not actually that property there is a 12VO mini spec that isn’t released yet as it isn’t finalized that uses a 6 pin and not 8 and drops two signalling channels. But yes the big OEM’s have been doing their own 12VO for a while in all sorts of ways. The Alienware lineup though based on some mod projects I’ve seen looks like a standard ATX with some interesting cable management decisions to accommodate that swinging door design
Do you have any more info about the upcoming spec since it doesn't seem to be Googleable? The current 12VO uses 9 pins out of a 10 pin connector; going to 6 would require either sending 12V-standby on one of the same pins as regular operational 12V, or dropping from 3 to 2 sets of power carrying wire pairs. I'm also curious how the Mobo and PSU will control statuses without dedicated signalling pins; and if lacking them means we won't be able to use a paperclip or other passive jumper to test-start a PSU without having a computer hooked to it.
 
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Do you have any more info about the upcoming spec since it doesn't seem to be Googleable? The current 12VO uses 9 pins out of a 10 pin connector; going to 6 would require either sending 12V-standby on one of the same pins as regular operational 12V, or dropping from 3 to 2 sets of power carrying wire pairs. I'm also curious how the Mobo and PSU will control statuses without dedicated signalling pins; and if lacking them means we won't be able to use a paperclip or other passive jumper to test-start a PSU without having a computer hooked to it.

You know what would be easier and save even more power? Just get rid of soft-power go back to the Baby-AT hard switch only. OFF would actually mean OFF again.
 

DanNeely

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You know what would be easier and save even more power? Just get rid of soft-power go back to the Baby-AT hard switch only. OFF would actually mean OFF again.
Maybe for consumer systems although I'd expect much misery inflicted on tech support by users who're used to waking it up by just touching the keyboard/mouse/trackpad. Some corporate IT use things like wake on lan to do patching/backups/etc after workers have left for the day so they'd need models without a hard power switch.
 

Lakados

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Do you have any more info about the upcoming spec since it doesn't seem to be Googleable? The current 12VO uses 9 pins out of a 10 pin connector; going to 6 would require either sending 12V-standby on one of the same pins as regular operational 12V, or dropping from 3 to 2 sets of power carrying wire pairs. I'm also curious how the Mobo and PSU will control statuses without dedicated signalling pins; and if lacking them means we won't be able to use a paperclip or other passive jumper to test-start a PSU without having a computer hooked to it.
I can find images referenced from it in other places, such as the pin out and colour code.
1627316037366.png


But actual links to the information seem to be broken. I don't know if that means Intel scrubbed the mini spec when they actually released the 12VO or what the deal is.
But now that Intel has an actual 12VO spec in the wild I really hope Dell and HP adopt it and no longer keep with the 6+4 pin configurations they have been using.
 

Comixbooks

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Death of PC due to power consumption crazy concept but it could happen.
The irony of it is Washington which is Redmond.
 
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