Dell and HP Resist the NVIDIA GPP Leash - So Far

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by FrgMstr, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. shpankey

    shpankey Limp Gawd

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    Evil Corporations are already well on their way to ruling the world. It's just a matter of time.

    All the best sci-fi movies have predicted it. ;P
     
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  2. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Dr. Evil candidates?
    ...

    Decided to delete those as political stuff isnt allowed :)
     
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  3. Big_Rig_Stig

    Big_Rig_Stig Gawd

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    You're not reading them wrong, he's trying to defend nVidia and illegal trade practices. He probably works for them.
     
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  4. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Then Nvidia should stop selling Chips... and start producing their own cards only. Drawing up illegal contracts to force the companies buying your chips to turn their product lines over to you isn't the way to go.
     
  5. Big_Rig_Stig

    Big_Rig_Stig Gawd

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    As did hundreds of sci-fi books.
     
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  6. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Likely, he just needs Kyle to post that watermarked contract so he can get that Lunch date with Mr. Huang.
     
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  7. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    There was a time when the IQ from ATI and Matrox cards was second to none. Some of it may have been manufacturing back then as well as Matrox for sure always produced cards with pretty high end parts in general. ATI and Nvidia to this day use different filtering algorithms, NV has caught up over the years... but in the early days of their fight back and forth imo ATI had the far superior looking solution even if NVs was slightly faster.
     
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  8. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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  9. Big_Rig_Stig

    Big_Rig_Stig Gawd

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    Chicken. :chicken::chicken::chicken:
     
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  10. Big_Rig_Stig

    Big_Rig_Stig Gawd

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    The fucker probably cost a million bucks, too...:unsure:

    I remember my old Matrox card from back in the G2/G3 days... when I swapped that out for the nVidia offering, said nVidia card killed two brand-new Hyundai 17" monitors before I went back to the Matrox.
     
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  11. TaintedSquirrel

    TaintedSquirrel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    So all the posts attacking me stay up, but the 1 post I made refuting them gets taken down. Classy.
    I'm out, I'll be back after things have settled down.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  12. variant

    variant Gawd

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    I never said it would be a good idea, I just said it's something they can do. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they would just stop selling AMD.
     
  13. theBrownLlama

    theBrownLlama Gawd

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    still waiting for a counter move by AMD. (Pepsi to Colas, Nikes to Adidas, Apples to Microsofts)

    i think we can make the conclusion that AMD just really don't care , by now.

    if AMD itself does not care, then arguing for AMD"s sake is really akin to shouting to the wind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  14. amenx

    amenx Limp Gawd

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  15. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's not comparable though. The prebuilt machines cut corners and are often near impossible to upgrade. Not so long ago Dell intentionally switched the wiring order in the motherboard socket so that if you installed a non-Dell PSU you fried your motherboard since the socket was standard, wiring was not.

    Stuff like that makes me think twice before buying ready built.
     
  16. That is exactly what it is.
     
  17. reaper12

    reaper12 2[H]4U

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    You would be completely wrong with this statement, TaintedSquirrel isn't a NVidia fanboy. He just likes to play devil's advocate. He does make some good arguments sometimes because of his unique viewpoints.

    Well, You are infuriating to argue with sometimes!! :D
     
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  18. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Back then monitors used the VGA analog out and the RF filtering of the card was a huge deal. On Nvidia most manufacturers used a horrible cheap circuit which blurred the desktop to almost unreadable (duh, best idea ever - let's totally ruin the image quality of a 300 dollar graphics card by saving 1 cent on parts). ATI and Matrox then again produced a crystal clear sharp images. I stopped buying Nvidia for this very reason for many years after my first Geforce256.
     
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  19. mvmiller12

    mvmiller12 Gawd

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    My Matrox Millenium G200 and G400 cards were beautiful things. I miss Matrox as a competitive card manufacturer :(
     
  20. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    The found a niche and filled it very nicely. Guess I don't blame them, they lost so much money on their last few generations of "gaming" cards. They have carved out a nice spot in the market with their now AMD GPU powered 9 monitor driving passive cooled cards. That and 4k real time encoder video streaming gear. Their are other players but Matrox is a leader in that stuff. Not the same level of volume clearly but decent margins. The move has allowed them to hang around with their 400 or so employees and continue. They are privately held and I believe the guys that founded it are still around, Lorne Trottier the one founder I know has a bunch of buildings at a few of Ontario universities named after him so I guess he spreads some money around at least. lol
     
  21. ROG, Gaming X and the like have nothing to do with the success of NVIDIA. And why would they?

    These "gaming" brands are a success not because they have "insert your favorite silicon-producer here" in them. No. In an AMD-dominated market ROG, Gaming X and Aouris would still be king (such scenario is, of course, a figure of speech). They are where they are because their brands went after what their customers wanted. We all know how shitty NVIDIA and AMD reference coolers are (though the FE are a step up) compared to, lets say, STRIX coolers, Gaming X and many others. I know, I have a GTX1080 ROG STRIX that I love to bits. If you were to force me to reference-only designs from NVIDIA... then fuck no, I'd go AMD all day, every day. So why do I love it? Definitely not because its an NVIDIA 1080. But because of the fantastic cooler that it has.

    So, they would be leeching off the success that NVIDIA has built if they were using reference designs and slapping a sticker. Which they aren't.

    All in all, the only way to name what NVIDIA is doing is... extorsion. Pure and simple. "If you wanna keep selling our products you need to turn around and bend over. Shhh, no complaints now". It is precisely the same. And while they are at it, they are imposing rules to hurt their competitors directly.

    Again, extortion.

    PS: and it is also funny that NVIDIA has been showing its middle finger to many of the AIBs for a few years now because of the SKU that are only sold through themselves. And now this?! If they keep pushing them over they will send them to hell, in the end. They better pray that AMD doesn't have a good altenative next gen because NVIDIA needs their AIBs probably more than the AIBS needs NVIDIA. Since Geforce relies absolutely on AIBs to sell anything and AIBs have other ways of making income, and can also sell AMD.


    What counter move, exactly?

    And of course they care. If they didn't their shareholders would be out for blood.
     
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  22. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is simply wrong. The strength of NVIDIA's GPUs are what put Gaming X on the map for MSI. The 1080 Ti launch is very specifically what put AORUS on the map for Gigabyte after they jettisoned their previous shitty branding. ASUS ROG/STRIX has existed longer, but it was the strength of Nvidia's GPUs that made the ROG/STRIX GPU compelling.

    The reality is that the NVIDIA GPU is what is selling a board for the AIB partners; the value-adds that they create around that golden piece of silicon - better VRM's, layout, cooling, warranty, etc are window dressing and secondary.

    Put another way: If the choice came down to a blinged out, triple-fan ROG STRIX Vega56 or Vega64, vs a generic GTX 1080 Ti with a blower cooler, and with other things being equal (price, warranty length) which one do you think MOST gamers are going to want?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  23. Rvenger

    Rvenger [H]ard|Gawd

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    Regarding ROG - in the past AMD made it compelling. Now that the competition is on sabbatical, yes Nvidia made it more compelling. MSI gaming cards were great on both brands.
     
  24. No, wrong. NVIDIA had nothing to do with the success of the Gaming X line. Or did NVIDIA themselves promote that line? Did they give them exclusive access to their gpus? Did they honor extended warranties? Or... I don't know... Maybe the Gaming X products were better than the competition? Maybe people preferred those solutions over the EVGAs cooler? Or the Gigabyte? Or any the FE itself?

    Also, ASUS ROG started to be a thing with motherboards for enthusiasts many years ago... but NOBODY would ever say that ROG was a success because of AMD or INTEL. It is horseshit after all. ROG is a success because the product line is, most of the time, solid. I don't know, maybe you don't remember, but the first ROG board was for AMD, back in 2006.

    asus-crosshair.jpg

    I'd like to introduce you to the Asus Crosshair.

    BUT, SOMEHOW, ROG EXISTS BECAUSE OF NVIDIA. Rog, a brand born in 2006, is where it is thanks to NVIDIA. Because, of course, their headsets, mice, keyboards, cases, routers, soundcards and others not only have NVIDIA technology in them, but also receive preferential treatment from NVIDIA.

    Yeah, if that isn't horseshit I don't know what is.

    ----


    Oh yeah, lets put the most stupid comparison ever. A RX580 against a 1080TI.

    Yeah.

    Or... did I say horseshit again?

    Now, go ask people how many current NVIDIA owners would give up their STRIX / GAMING X, etc to go to a FE edition. I know I'd ditch my 1080 STRIX in a heartbeat.
     
  25. LancerVI

    LancerVI n00b

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    Really? Now that the writing is on the wall confirming what Kyle reported?


    How convenient.
     
  26. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    That's totally nonsensical. If NVIDIA really had nothing to do with the success of the Gaming X line, then MSI wouldn't have felt any need to (allegedly) opt in to GPP. These partnerships and co-branding arrangements are like a marriage, where they both elevate one another. NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX and MSI GAMING X appearing on the same box = they are interconnected, like mixing paint.

    When NVIDIA launched the 780, or the 980, or the 1080, and MSI put out their Gaming X version of it -- what do you think it was about those GPU's that gamers were hitting F5 on Newegg all day to get a hold of? Was it MSI's red heatsink and dragon logo, or the NVIDIA GPU on board? Duh, the killer, sought after feature is the Nvidia GPU. The AIB partners have hitched their branding wagons to the consistent, benchmark topping performance of NVIDIA GPU's and ridden them to record profits, elevating their brands in the process.

    Cool strawman, I'm sure anyone is saying "ROG EXISTS BECAUSE OF NVIDIA". The point was very specifically talking ROG/STRIX >GPU's<. But ultimately you'd need to ask ASUS what they felt is so utterly lacking about AMD's GPU's that they allegedly chose to devote their ROG/STRIX branding to NVIDIA's apparent loyalty program going forward.

    You do realize you just made Nvidia's argument for GPP: a RX580 sharing any branding or having any overlap with a 1080Ti just cheapens the brand to NVIDIA's eyes, like slapping a Lexus logo on a Corolla. Regardless, Vega GPU's have been phantoms since inception and nonexistent on store shelves, which would make discussing them in a branding context academic.

    I'm sure this has some relevance to something.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  27. wizzi01

    wizzi01 2[H]4U

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    Denial is a helluva drug.
     
  28. rgMekanic

    rgMekanic [H]ard|News

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    Unless perhaps they were maybe.... I dunno.. coerced because the fucking terms of the GPP would neuter them if they didn't sign it?

    Maybe?

    Perhaps?
     
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  29. FearTheCow

    FearTheCow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nah man, it's because AMD sux and Nvidia rules! Oh wait, I meant to say "I am going to ignore comparisons and state that AMD is second tier, then move the goal post by saying just performance doesn't matter while ignoring that AMD is competitive with every Nviidia product except the 1080ti."
     
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  30. I suggest you read and understand how games theory work. Because the GPP is a perfect example for it.

    And no, this isn't a partnership nor an opt-in. If you are MSI you are forced to get into it or pretty much go bankrupt. There is no choice whatsoever in the decision. Not being in GPP means that you are tier 2, and being tier 2 means that every single tier 1 has a competitive advantatge. So it is an all or nothing situation: unless every single AIB agree not to opt in, they will all do it. There is no choice here. And no benefits. On the contrary, it isn't not opting in that will for sure ruin you.

    *except if you are a super big dog like Dell or HP that sell pre-fab computers then NVIDIA can't ever make you tier 2 as they rely on you buying lots of shit. But companies like MSI that basically only sell gpus? Pfff.

    So... when people chose the MSI GTX1080 Gaming X over the Asus GTX1080 STRIX they did it over the NVIDIA part, amiright?

    I don't know, but if NVIDIA is so fucking awesome why didn't every body get a fucking FE and be done with it?

    Oh right... because it sucks ass compared to the non-reference versions. Isn't that interesting?



    Again, you lack the understanding of the situation. There is no choice here. None whatsoever.



    So, an RX580 sharing any branding with the 1080TI (it doesn't, BTW, but more power to you) is BAD, VERY SUPER BAD, but a GTX1050 TI isn't, right? A ROG STRIX GTX1050 isn't cheapening the ROG STRIX 1080TI, just as a RX580 isn't either.

    Or the Mercedes S63 AMG is being cheapened because there is an A380 AMG?
    Or how about the Audi S8 being cheapened because there is an S4?

    Or how about we stop the horseshit and start using a bit of the rationale our brain is capable of? Just for a change?
     
  31. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    Strawman, because GPP isn't concerned with differences between Nvidia-associated AIB brands. The point is the consistent benchmark topping strength of every new Nvidia GPU generation lifts all AIB boats (brands). And because NVIDIA apparently considers their GPUs having been a big reason for the success and profits on their AIB partners GPUs, I can see how they're not keen on AMD coattail surfing the fruits of that partnership. Not sure why that's so difficult for people to understand.

    You're kind of all over the road with your points, but this one was a particular head scratcher: so "MSI pretty much goes bankrupt" if they don't opt in to GPP? If their entire enterprise is truly teetering on not only Nvidia's GPUs, but being able to rake in as fat a profit margin as competing AIBs, then you clearly have some insider knowledge of impending financial doom that not even their leadership is aware of.

    No offense but exaggeration to the point of absurdity just makes everything else hard to take seriously.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  32. I'm done. There is no reason to keep beating the dead horse. You don't want to reason. Fine.
     
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  33. wizzi01

    wizzi01 2[H]4U

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    Yep, that's why I stopped responding to jwnvidia. The denial is very real.
     
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  34. IguanaC64

    IguanaC64 n00b

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    I get the feeling some of the people on this forum don't actually know what ROG or STRIX actually mean. They think it's just blinged out whatever. I own a few 1070s (hate me or whatever, but it's been an AMAZING learning experience). I own a couple of Asus Turbos, a few Asus Duals, and one Asus ROG Strix. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't spent money on turbos/duals and just spent the extra money for ROG STRIXs since *STABLY* OCing the memory is important to me.

    ROG cards have the best binned components (GPU/Memory/VRMs)...this isn't marketing bullshit. From my (somewhat limited) experience "Dual," "Turbo," and "Strix" refer to what kind of cooler is on the card. The Strix cooler is the best Asus cooler. Dual/Turbo I think is kind of a wash...I'd have to go check my card temps, but I don't remember them being very different.

    Asus ROG cards are freaking AMAZING for overclocking. The best seemingly stable memory OC I can do on a non-ROG (OC version or not) card is between +600 and +750...after that you start to get artifacts and card shutdowns (I say "seemingly" because the only way you can tell your OC is too high is by letting the card run and see if you get artifacts over time...I wish nVidia would show you memory errors like AMD cards do). My ROG STRIX runs nonstop at +1000 OC on the memory with no artifacts and no overheating. YMMV, but that taught me if I want to OC, the ROG+STRIX combination is a freaking beast. I have one EVGA FTW 1070, and not only is the memory overclocking no better than an Asus Dual/Turbo, but it gets hotter than the STRIX shroud and apparently likes to bleed oil on your motherboard if you keep temps high (thankfully, it's not electrically conductive, but meh). I can't do more than that +750 OC on FTW or SC EVGA cards. Don't know anything about the EVGA Kingpin card (which is 1080TI only). Incidentally...don't even bother with the EVGA ACX 2 single fan shrouds if you care about heat...they run at least 10°C hotter than ACX 3 two fan shrouds. Heat = faster GPU death.

    TL;DR...Asus ROG cards are the tits if you OC. Nothing from EVGA comes close. I don't have any Gigabyte cards to tell you how good their cooling/binning is.

    AMD losing the ability to come in under that kind of brand quality is a huge blow. If I was a typical consumer looking for that badass ROG card like I used to have, guess which card I would buy? AREZ wouldn't even be on my radar. Typical consumers go with what they know they've had a good experience with and it's hard to get them to change. It seems like a lot here don't know the actual difference either...so how would I expect Joe Consumer to know?!

    Asus can't afford to trash a brand like ROG because it's on so many products and so established...nor can any serious AIB afford to have their supply restricted if they want to stay in business.
     
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  35. schoolslave

    schoolslave Gawd

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    I've made it a point not to buy garbage like ROG or w/e "gaming" brands and have always preferred the reference blower designs from ATI and NVIDIA.
    Why would I want some cheap gimmicky triple fan which blows heat into every direction EXCEPT out the back of the chassis?
     
  36. mvmiller12

    mvmiller12 Gawd

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    Personally, I also prefer reference cooler designs, but then again as Prava stated, I also pop a cooling block on every video card I get. If I can't source a cooler for a card (like this custom Gigabyte RX480 I got for cheap), then I rig it (in this case with 2 Koolance VRM coolers and a GPU-200 block I had sitting around).

    The picture is not the final result (the tall hoses were shortened A LOT with some angle fittings I found tucked away, for example) but it will give you an idea. I had to use my Dremel to fabricate a custom heat plate to attach to one of the Koolance VRM coolers, and you can see it under the block on the far right with the thermal paste oozing out from where it mates the VRM block. Thermal pads sit between the VRM blocks and the VRM components. I also put RAM sinks on the RAM. It IS liquid cooled, but I didn't save any money over a full coverage block (if one existed for this card) this way.... WP_20180315_19_20_34_Pro.jpg
     
  37. schoolslave

    schoolslave Gawd

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    This is what this hobby used to be about!
     
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  38. Different priorites is fine in my book, but calling something "cheap gimmicky" isn't.

    Cards like the GTX1080 STRIX are very, very high quality products. Nothing cheap nor gimmicky there.
     
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  39. Big_Rig_Stig

    Big_Rig_Stig Gawd

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  40. fingerbob69

    fingerbob69 [H]Lite

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