Dell and HP Resist the NVIDIA GPP Leash - So Far

wadec22

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this just blows my mind. I've bought the best performing flagship gpu for each gen since the 9800gx2 and up to my current 1080ti. if they stick to this strategy, my next gpu will certainly not be nvidia - regardless of performance.

keep up the killer work Kyle. paypal gift incoming.
 

NKD

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As I stated earlier, I DID read the article. Maybe you are the one who needs to read before posting? I missed the point of the article? Why even have the article if it isn't to highlight companies that are not participating in Nvidia's extortion? Companies that do not participate deserve to be rewarded. I have shied away for years from pre-built computers, and for higher end, have been able to come in several hundred dollars cheaper than pre-built, all while having better components.

The reason I bring this up is that the only way to support these companies not participating in Nvidia's extortion is to purchase their products. Can I justify purchasing a new computer vs building my own? It is very relevant to the discussion. I really don't want to buy NVIDIA, and I don't want to buy from companies that sign up for the GPP, which takes out the top three motherboard and video card makers. Where do I turn? Substandard quality vendors?


Your intention was not wrong but this isn’t about building a pc though. You can do the right thing but no one is going to go out of their way to build a pc just to avoid Nvidia. What you are doing is right and I support it but honestly not everyone thinks that way. Eventually people fall for branding. That’s the truth. That’s why Nvidia is forcing Partners to not just align their video cards but their gaming branding exclusive to nvidia. sadly a lot of people probably won’t be aware for it for a while. It’s up to media and major pc makers like hp and dell to oppose it. Hopefully they stick to their guns and don’t bend to Nvidia.
 

Everlast

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I'm so glad that you keep hammering this home, Kyle. It boggles my mind how other supposedly "independent" tech blogs/journos are straight up ignoring this. Those nvidia roots must be deep.

I, too, have an nvidia card in my box (GTX 970), but I'm ready to make the jump to a full AMD rig next go (Ryzen 2700 + whatever new AMD GPU comes out). Nvidia will only listen if their bottom line is impacted.
 

Sindalis

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Aug 27, 2014
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I can say this honestly.

My first and last ATI/AMD GPU was an ATI 3d Rage PCI with 8MB of RAM. I remember this due to it freezing on Civ Call to Power because it ran out of memory.

Since then its been all Nvidia for me.

Now though, with all this shenanigans going on... I can let my 1080 rest a little bit longer. The itch is here to upgrade is striking me but really, with how nividia has been slowing down? I'm not expecting to actually need to till 2020 at this point.

At that point. I do hope that AMD or bloody Intel even has a chip given the shenanigans that Nvidia is pulling with the GPP
 

-Anomie-

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Looks like I'm going to have to keep plugging away with my ATI 7970, which kind of sucks because it can't handle some of the games I play very well. Not that I can afford a new high-end GPU anyway, at least until the virtual "currency" fad finally tanks.

(Edit to fix the GPU model, not sure why I originally put 9070, must have been temporary insanity.)
 
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DTN107

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Do we have a list of which companies signed their souls away to GPP and which companies didn't?
 
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I'm of the opinion that Dell and HP are the big kids in nVidia's playground - they (nVidia) wouldn't dare to dictate any business terms to these two OEMs for fear of being told to fuck off.

In other words, Dell/HP are not refusing to enter into the GPP program - they're simply not required to and may be de facto members already from nVidia's point of view.
 

TheOne&OnlyZeke

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I sold my 1070. If I see a Vega going for reasonable money in the FS/FT section I'm gonna be picking it up
Otherwise it'll be a used 1080Ti....although I'll feel a little dirty, I'll get over it

nVidia will 'hopefully' relax the rules on this if public attention stays focused on it.....who am I kidding...no they fucking won't
 

Nolan7689

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I'm of the opinion that Dell and HP are the big kids in nVidia's playground - they (nVidia) wouldn't dare to dictate any business terms to these two OEMs for fear of being told to fuck off.

In other words, Dell/HP are not refusing to enter into the GPP program - they're simply not required to and may be de facto members already from nVidia's point of view.
Ah but then if they are afforded the advantages without the “disadvantages” (gaming brand exclusive to nvidia) that still opens up to unfair practices in that they don’t have to conform to the same requirements.
 

renz496

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Messages
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I'm so glad that you keep hammering this home, Kyle. It boggles my mind how other supposedly "independent" tech blogs/journos are straight up ignoring this. Those nvidia roots must be deep.

I, too, have an nvidia card in my box (GTX 970), but I'm ready to make the jump to a full AMD rig next go (Ryzen 2700 + whatever new AMD GPU comes out). Nvidia will only listen if their bottom line is impacted.

And this GPP is one of their strategy to prevent their bottom line being impacted in the future. There is no way they can ensure their future unless they play it dirty. This is the sad truth about big corporation. Now AMD and intel is about to gang up on nvidia. It would be foolish to take action only when the shit hit them. Just look what happen with their chipset business. Sure they got 1.5bil settlement from intel but by then the chipset division already completely destroyed.
 

jardows

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At that point. I do hope that AMD or bloody Intel even has a chip given the shenanigans that Nvidia is pulling with the GPP
AMD Does have a chip. It's called Vega. It competes with or beats everything Nvidia has for consumer cards except the top tier 1080Ti. If it ever gets back to MSRP (because they are selling every card they can make, the price is inflated) you might want to check it out if you need something now.

Here's a few good recent reviews on what this AMD chip can do!

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/04/02/far_cry_5_video_card_performance_preview/
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/03/05/asus_rog_strix_rx_vega_56_o8g_gaming_review/
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/02/08/asus_rog_strix_rx_vega_64_o8g_gaming_video_card/
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/12/20/amd_radeon_software_adrenalin_edition_performance/
 

fingerbob69

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Hmmmm ...AMD/Intel could quite legitimately 'abandon' SLI support and block the propreitry GSYNC in favour of the freely available industry standard of Freesync.

That would get nVidia's attention.

Such perfectly legitimate measures might be a quicker cheaper means of persuading nVidia to drop GPP rather than a long and expensive court case.
 

Kaos_Drem

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Hmmmm ...AMD/Intel could quite legitimately 'abandon' SLI support and block the propreitry GSYNC in favour of the freely available industry standard of Freesync.

That would get nVidia's attention.

Such perfectly legitimate measures might be a quicker cheaper means of persuading nVidia to drop GPP rather than a long and expensive court case.

Nothing about that statement would be realistic or legitimate. If they banded together its collusion and against the law. If they do it on their own, i suppose its possible but why would Intel/AMD want to give up high end cpu/chipset sales?

Also how are they going to "block" gsync, it doesn't have anything to do with the cpu or platform, on the gpu.
 

fingerbob69

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nVidia has already abonded sli for 1060 level gpu and lower. No collusion necessary ...one firm announces ...the other follows shortly after.

As for gysnc ....I would have thought it possible for the cpu to 'detect' the monitor in use ...if gysnc ...then....
 

KamelRed

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nVidia has already abonded sli for 1060 level gpu and lower. No collusion necessary ...one firm announces ...the other follows shortly after.

As for gysnc ....I would have thought it possible for the cpu to 'detect' the monitor in use ...if gysnc ...then....

"If you can't beat em, join em" technique? Not going to get many tech white knights on your side with those tactics.....
 

GoodBoy

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I still think this could work in favor of AMD. Separate brands means they can build brand reputations all on their own.

In the long run, whatever happens with GPP, if AMD isn't making a competing product, then it isn't going to matter... the only choice will become nVidia. They currently only (really) compete against their own older cards, so maybe it would be ok... but they could go nuts on GPU pricing. If this happens, then the $$ would trigger others to develop for the market. What is wrong with Intel anyway, you'd think they could make a good GPU...

From what I have heard, FTC is getting complaints about GPP before it is really off the ground. Probably wishful thinking, but maybe the FTC would intervene.. say "this clause is anti-competitive", and it would never impact the market because they could just remove the offending bits. Or they might say, "The way this is implemented is not in violation of the law.." and we can move on from worrying about it.

If I had had better experiences with AMD's products in the past, I would join you in buying their GPU next time around. Still might if performance is good. But having been burned more than once, not about to do it without careful consideration. They are to blame for the situation the market is in... place the blame all around, they all are culpable in this.
 

ChadD

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I'm so glad that you keep hammering this home, Kyle. It boggles my mind how other supposedly "independent" tech blogs/journos are straight up ignoring this. Those nvidia roots must be deep.

That NV marketing money has to go somewhere in the end. (half joking)
 

Dayman

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Kyle said:
The other unknown in this is Intel. Big Blue is very much aware of what is going on, and GPP could very much impact the sales of its Kaby Lake-G part that contains a GPU that was built by AMD specifically for Intel. I would expect we are going to see legal action initiated on NVIDIA GPP by Intel at some point in the future

FIGHT!
FIGHT!

Do it Intel! Doooooooo it.
 

ChadD

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Is it just me, or does this sound like what Coke and Pepsi do with restaurants?

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1463765.html

https://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/la...s/publications/newsviews/hamouda_cocacola.pdf

Pepsi has sued Coke. In the US they lost with courts basically found that Coke didn't have a dominant enough position to rule in favor of Pepsi. (it really really helps that in the US they are still using competition law written in the 1890.) To say its silly that the US hasn't passed updated laws in 130 years should go without saying. In the EU coke was ordered to end a bunch of practices, I don't have a link but I believe they also paid some fairly heavy fines and dmgs in Italy.

But ya both Coke and Pepsi lock customers in with the leasing deals on equipment ect. Some of the worst contractual things they where doing 20 years ago they have backed off on in MOST places in the world... where the laws make it a no no. In the US its my understanding companies feel they can get away with a lot more... as well they can by the sounds of it.
 

UrielDagda

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Pepsi has sued Coke. In the US they lost with courts basically found that Coke didn't have a dominant enough position to rule in favor of Pepsi. (it really really helps that in the US they are still using competition law written in the 1890.) To say its silly that the US hasn't passed updated laws in 130 years should go without saying. In the EU coke was ordered to end a bunch of practices, I don't have a link but I believe they also paid some fairly heavy fines and dmgs in Italy.

But ya both Coke and Pepsi lock customers in with the leasing deals on equipment ect. Some of the worst contractual things they where doing 20 years ago they have backed off on in MOST places in the world... where the laws make it a no no. In the US its my understanding companies feel they can get away with a lot more... as well they can by the sounds of it.

Yeah here in the US, in most restaurants, it's either Coke or Pepsi for the most part... The few places around here that have both just sell cans for a buck.
 

zkostik

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Messages
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Say whatever you want to say about Apple and trust me, I do have plenty of issues with them, but I admire how they gave nvidia the middle finger and went with AMD, full on, regardless that nvidia had better gpus for their laptops and the Mac Pro.

Same, to a point, for Sony and MS, at least on their consoles.

Fuck nvidia.



Well, Apple does this all the time. So with AMD vs Nvidia, Apple just wanted lower price to push better margins and since AMD does the job why not. Not like Apple has been about performance lately anyway. For consoles it was about APU and also lower cost and neither Nvidia nor Intel has a competing APU solution. I do however despise the whole GPP thing though. If AMD doesn't get serious about their high end PUG, Nvidia will be able to get away with this shit.
 

WBurchnall

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they're aren't many bigger names than Dell and HP in the Pc market these days is there?

Having recently considered a laptop...I actually stopped into a BestBuy to see how their selection/prices compared to online...

In store there were:

0 Lenovos
Maybe 5 Dells
10 Acers
10 Mac/Apple Laptops
5 Google Chromebooks (If you consider these laptops)
2 Alienware Laptops
8 or so HPs.

These are all rough estimates mind you but from my initial observation. Probably about 3-4 years ago, you might have seen 8 or so "Gateway" PCs but that brand is gone.

So really the only other big names besides Dell/HP these days are Acer and Apple. A moderate player seems to be Google Chromebooks/Samsung Tablets and finally a small player struggling to pawn $2000 dollar laptops with a GTX1060 in them Alienware.

Honestly though, the best price-performance I found (and this might just be me...) was going with Lenovo.com's online sales direct from manufacturer. The Lenovo Y720 or something like that with a I7-7770k and a GTX 1060 came to ~1500CAD before taxes. BestBuys' equivalent was $1900 CAD. However, the Lenovo was 8GB of ram vs 12GB of ram. You can customize thru the website to equalize that and it's still cheaper. Just my observation anyways. I haven't checked to see how direct from Dell compares to the dell in store at bestbuy yet.
 

WBurchnall

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Ugh. There is no way to win in this situation for gamers in this, is there?

Nvidia doing shady bullshit. AMD can't make a card worthy of its super inflated price thanks to mining. Why did I want a GTX 1070 again?

May as well hang it up at this point.
There's one small, potential win for gamers. Generally speaking, CoD and games like that work along the lines of 'Let's give the user the EXACT SAME GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE but ohhh look at the new shiny higher resolution textures or shining reflective surfaces!' driven by stronger GPUs from the previous generation allowing games to "do more" graphically. Of course, if gamers have the same card as last year with the same performance because they couldn't buy a new card and/or because the cards were insanely priced....CoD and lazy franchises are going to have to find another selling point to convince you to buy their game. They can't use "Looooookkk shinies!" b/c it's identical to last years polish. So maybe, just maybe, they'll say look buy this one...10 more hours of gameplay than last years! Look buy this one...new gameplay features! or Look buy this one.... better story than ever! or Look buy this one...player's choices affect the storyline outcome! Look buy this one, more replayability! etc etc...

It's potential this could happen or they release the exact same game, looking the exact same way, with no new features, identical gameplay and about the same amount of that identical gameplay as before and when it sells a bit less than the previous year, they'll blame it on PC piracy.
 

ChadD

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Having recently considered a laptop...I actually stopped into a BestBuy to see how their selection/prices compared to online...

In store there were:

0 Lenovos
Maybe 5 Dells
10 Acers
10 Mac/Apple Laptops
5 Google Chromebooks (If you consider these laptops)
2 Alienware Laptops
8 or so HPs.

These are all rough estimates mind you but from my initial observation. Probably about 3-4 years ago, you might have seen 8 or so "Gateway" PCs but that brand is gone.

So really the only other big names besides Dell/HP these days are Acer and Apple. A moderate player seems to be Google Chromebooks/Samsung Tablets and finally a small player struggling to pawn $2000 dollar laptops with a GTX1060 in them Alienware.

Honestly though, the best price-performance I found (and this might just be me...) was going with Lenovo.com's online sales direct from manufacturer. The Lenovo Y720 or something like that with a I7-7770k and a GTX 1060 came to ~1500CAD before taxes. BestBuys' equivalent was $1900 CAD. However, the Lenovo was 8GB of ram vs 12GB of ram. You can customize thru the website to equalize that and it's still cheaper. Just my observation anyways. I haven't checked to see how direct from Dell compares to the dell in store at bestbuy yet.

Years back (over 20 of them) I worked for Future Shop a Canadian version of BB for a good 5 years or so. (Best buy bought FS out a year or so before I left, they killed commission payments I stuck around on a grandfathered version of their commission payments the last year then left before they ended that.)

So I can say this as I saw it first hand. Retail computer box stores... put one super high end machine on the shelf to satisfy the yes we have the best of the best question. (there are 1-2 in the back in the off chance someone actually wants one before it goes clearance price) Then you have your non pushed brand... the one the buyers have picked up to fill the shelves. Then you have the ones you are supposed to actually sell.... the brand that the buyers stuck the best deal with. With that brand you always have 2-3 models which you have TONS of stock on... and back in the day when they paid retail sales people commission they would "spiff" those models very nicely. I know commission in retail is unheard of now... but back 20 years ago. I would get paid 2% if I remember right on everything... + spiffs on spcific products. Back then I would get paid more for selling the mid range HP tower then the super high end machine we where selling. 2% of the high end machine or 2% on the HP + the 30 dollar spiff + the 10 dollar spiff on the HP monitor to go with it. (I remember back then I could sell a super high end machine with the best monitor in the house ect and make 70-80 bucks... or I could sell the mid range HP tower with the spiffed HP monitor and a spiffed cable package that the buyers got cheap ect and easily make 150 bucks on one deal)

I guess what I am saying is... at best buy these days they load the shelf but if you wanna know what is selling. Look where they keep the stock and see how much stock they are holding. I'm not sure how Best buy incentivises their sales people these days but I am sure they are pushing a specific brand / model out the door still.
 
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DooLocsta

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Years back (over 20 of them) I worked for Future Shop a Canadian version of BB for a good 5 years or so. (Best buy bought FS out a year or so before I left, they killed commission payments I stuck around on a grandfathered version of their commission payments the last year then left before they ended that.)

So I can say this as I saw it first hand. Retail computer box stores... put one super high end machine on the shelf to satisfy the yes we have the best of the best question. (there are 1-2 in the back in the off chance someone actually wants one before it goes clearance price) Then you have your non pushed brand... the one the buyers have picked up to fill the shelves. Then you have the ones you are supposed to actually sell.... the brand that the buyers stuck the best deal with. With that brand you always have 2-3 models which you have TONS of stock on... and back in the day when they paid retail sales people commission they would "spiff" those models very nicely. I know commission in retail is unheard of now... but back 20 years ago. I would get paid 2% if I remember right on everything... + spiffs on spcific products. Back then I would get paid more for selling the mid range HP tower then the super high end machine we where selling. 2% of the high end machine or 2% on the HP + the 30 dollar spiff + the 10 dollar spiff on the HP monitor to go with it. (I remember back then I could sell a super high end machine with the best monitor in the house ect and make 70-80 bucks... or I could sell the mid range HP tower with the spiffed HP monitor and a spiffed cable package that the buyers got cheap ect and easily make 150 bucks on one deal)

I guess what I am saying is... at best buy these days they load the shelf but if you wanna know what is selling. Look where they keep the stock and see how much stock they are holding. I'm not sure how Best buy incentivises their sales people these days but I am sure they are pushing a specific brand / model out the door still.

Don't forget the spiff on the warranty :D
 

ChadD

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Don't forget the spiff on the warranty :D

The best was the 30 dollar printer cable that paid me 10 bucks. That gold plating you know its very important.

But ya if I remember right I think it was 15% on the extended warranty crap. Having said that at least at FS when I worked there the extended warranty was handled in store... we had decent in store techs and for 90% of the crap we sold we just exchanged it as long as people where not trying to F us. lol

The right Tower... 50 bucks in my pocket... the right Monitor 15-20 bucks... the right printer 20 bucks... the right printer cable 10 bucks.. the right surge bar 10 bucks... a copy of the local ISPs setup package 50 bucks off the customers bill and 20 bucks in my pocket.... and top it off another 45-60 bucks in my pocket from the extended coverage. :) I think the most I ever made on one system was around 220 or so, sold them extra printer cartridges, the pack of CD-Rs with the 5 dollar spiff ect. haha

Worst and best job I ever had all in one... ended up working retail into my mid 20s but the money was so damn good. Until Best buy bought them out anyway.
 

mvmiller12

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Joined
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Messages
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Having recently considered a laptop...I actually stopped into a BestBuy to see how their selection/prices compared to online...

In store there were:

0 Lenovos
Maybe 5 Dells
10 Acers
10 Mac/Apple Laptops
5 Google Chromebooks (If you consider these laptops)
2 Alienware Laptops
8 or so HPs.

These are all rough estimates mind you but from my initial observation. Probably about 3-4 years ago, you might have seen 8 or so "Gateway" PCs but that brand is gone.

So really the only other big names besides Dell/HP these days are Acer and Apple. A moderate player seems to be Google Chromebooks/Samsung Tablets and finally a small player struggling to pawn $2000 dollar laptops with a GTX1060 in them Alienware.

Honestly though, the best price-performance I found (and this might just be me...) was going with Lenovo.com's online sales direct from manufacturer. The Lenovo Y720 or something like that with a I7-7770k and a GTX 1060 came to ~1500CAD before taxes. BestBuys' equivalent was $1900 CAD. However, the Lenovo was 8GB of ram vs 12GB of ram. You can customize thru the website to equalize that and it's still cheaper. Just my observation anyways. I haven't checked to see how direct from Dell compares to the dell in store at bestbuy yet.

Alienware was bought out by Dell several years ago, and now Alienware is the boutique "gaming" brand for Dell (complete with aggressive case design and all the RGBs). So, there were 7 Dells there... :)
 
Joined
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Messages
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I'm with you.

I had a go at giving support but couldnt stomach the number of places that need scripting enabled in order to make the page function.
And I hate experimenting to find which ones are the only necessary ones, I'm not playing this game.
I only want to give some cash, not my identity to lots of unknowns.
Kyle takes cash, too... only in small denominations, unmarked, non-sequential, and no dye-packs. Definitely no dye packs.
 
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