Dark Matter Blob Confounds Experts

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Sly

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The only group i know that you can't mix are atheists. I have friends from different religions. Everyone tolerates each others positions and everything. Once you throw an atheist in the mix there's always going to be arguments at the end of the night. Every topic usually comes down to putting downs and personal attacks based on someones beliefs.[URL="http://www.christianpost.com/news/war-on-christmas-atheists-neutralizing-christianity-65259/"] From what I've seen atheists are more radical than Christians and other faiths. Atheists just can't tolerate people with opposing viewpoints. [/URL]Just like you saw on tv during Christmas they can't bare to see a nativity set. Its a phobia. Most hate god or have a grudge from something that happened in their lives.
You don't really see other religions picking off other religions rituals and traditions. Only the atheists bicker and moan. lol atheists usually bother Christians more than Muslims. Christians are more held back and reserved like the kid in the back of the bus that gets picked on. Atheists attack because most aren't willing to fight back. You never really see anyone picking on Muslims. People are afraid of what they can potentially do ;)

Erm... no. Catholics are even in conflict with other catholics. I once was on the bus with a schoolmate and he got a call from his girlfriend and found that she was going to church with some friends. He went livid, enough that the entire bus heard him shouting at his phone. Why? Because she was going to a Roman Catholic church instead of *his* Catholic church (forgot the name).

Each church has their own interpretation of the bible and would often come in conflict with each other. They will even try to recruit from each others congregation.

Me thinks you don't actually know how Catholic churches work.
 

[RIP]Zeus

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"According to our current theory... This pretty much sums up most of what these eggheads know. When confronted with evidence that is contrary to their "current theories", they act surprised, and "Oh how can this be?". Just like the "Theory of Evolution" has become fact to these morons. The probability that the universe "just happened" is so enormous, that it is actually impossible for it to have spontaneously appeared. The laws of probabilty don't lie, but lets not let the facts get in the way of our theories. I am now putting on my flame suit, so fire away.

367kvk.jpg
 

D4rkn3ss

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lol Zeus you've only read the first page! a clusterfuck of madness happened between that ^^
 
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[RIP]Zeus;1038481164 said:
I getting thru it... This is quite the entertanment i tell ya!
It's pretty sad that someone talks about facts and evidence but is a hard core believer in the mystery man in the sky. I read this topic twice and I really hope that these are elaborate trolls.
 

[RIP]Zeus

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Wow, Got thru this, and well, as it comes down to this every time.

The people who are educated are displaying evidence for their argument. While the fundies keep going on and on how they “know” and are “certain” that this supposed deity exists without any kind of empirical evidence.

It’s the same old story by the religious whack jobs.

For all you fundies, I hope you are aware that really any supposed “holy book” be it the quran or the bible, will make an atheist in the quickest and most efficient way.

If you fundies have so much “evidence to disprove anything science has discovered and come to an understanding”.

Then you should write it down, get it peer reviewed and collect your Nobel Prize.
 

nOrVow

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[RIP]Zeus;1038481228 said:
Wow, Got thru this, and well, as it comes down to this every time.

The people who are educated are displaying evidence for their argument. While the fundies keep going on and on how they “know” and are “certain” that this supposed deity exists without any kind of empirical evidence.

It’s the same old story by the religious whack jobs.

For all you fundies, I hope you are aware that really any supposed “holy book” be it the quran or the bible, will make an atheist in the quickest and most efficient way.

If you fundies have so much “evidence to disprove anything science has discovered and come to an understanding”.

Then you should write it down, get it peer reviewed and collect your Nobel Prize.

This.

Honestly, reading BS like that should MAKE one go athiest. It's that fucking nonsensically retarded and contradicting. Trust me, IF or once you reach the age of reason (10-11 for me :D), it'll make you go "lolwut".
 

[RIP]Zeus

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This.

Honestly, reading BS like that should MAKE one go athiest. It's that fucking nonsensically retarded and contradicting. Trust me, IF or once you reach the age of reason (10-11 for me :D), it'll make you go "lolwut".

I was lucky and caught on around 8, and my three brothers followed as they got old enough to understand and start thinking rationally.

During that time, my brothers and I fought a lot with our mother when it came to going to church or some kind of activity related.

Now it's all fun and games talking about the invisible sky daddy. :D
 

Magnus

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[RIP]Zeus;1038481228 said:
Wow, Got thru this, and well, as it comes down to this every time.

The people who are educated are displaying evidence for their argument. While the fundies keep going on and on how they “know” and are “certain” that this supposed deity exists without any kind of empirical evidence.

It’s the same old story by the religious whack jobs.

For all you fundies, I hope you are aware that really any supposed “holy book” be it the quran or the bible, will make an atheist in the quickest and most efficient way.

If you fundies have so much “evidence to disprove anything science has discovered and come to an understanding”.

Then you should write it down, get it peer reviewed and collect your Nobel Prize.

You almost make me want to be a "fundie" whatever that is. So, you don't believe in anything you can't see, point to or, measure? So, emotions, creativity and, evil do not exist?

Consider. Whether or not God exists or, your disdain for others beliefs exist, can you deny the impact those beliefs have on the world?

Do you see there is very little difference between a religious zealot convinced of the "Truth" of Creationism and an under educated scientific realist who believes everything in the cosmos follows the same set of "scientific principles" (even though they don't understand them fully themselves) as the "Truth?"
 

[RIP]Zeus

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You almost make me want to be a "fundie" whatever that is. So, you don't believe in anything you can't see, point to or, measure? So, emotions, creativity and, evil do not exist?
Emotions, creativity, evil/good can and are observed in the natural world we live in. We can observe emotions, http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/295.full
Creativity is observed by anyone creating something, be it music, video, art, or anything that can be observed by the natural world.
Evil/Good is easily observed but also can define by the culture you live in, IE. If you (lets says for shits and giggles) in eastern part of the world, where eating a cookie is “ok” then this is considered “good” to that culture. Were the western part says “eating a cookie” is bad, there for its evil if conducted.
Consider. Whether or not God exists or, your disdain for others beliefs exist, can you deny the impact those beliefs have on the world?
How can I deny an impact if the impact has been observed, reported on, seen by many, and possibly been repeated (aka there is evidence to back it up).Doing so would make me willfully ignorant.
Do you see there is very little difference between a religious zealot convinced of the "Truth" of Creationism and an under educated scientific realist who believes everything in the cosmos follows the same set of "scientific principles" (even though they don't understand them fully themselves) as the "Truth?"
No, cause one is based on observation and the other is based on willful ignorance, also known as “faith”.
 

[RIP]Zeus

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“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
―Richard Dawkins

Does Richard Dawkins need to say anything more? :D
 

nOrVow

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You almost make me want to be a "fundie" whatever that is. So, you don't believe in anything you can't see, point to or, measure? So, emotions, creativity and, evil do not exist?

Consider. Whether or not God exists or, your disdain for others beliefs exist, can you deny the impact those beliefs have on the world?

Freethinkers/athiest/(insert relative group here) tend to disregard anything with no empirical basis whatsoever. With that said, we don't hold the burden of proof. We can only assert what factual information we have and understand of the natural world to challenge said claims. "Exist" is a term used so loosely nowadays.

All of which you mentioned are mere ambiguous products of the brain and are clearly observable in many species other than homsapiens.

Do you see there is very little difference between a religious zealot convinced of the "Truth" of Creationism and an under educated scientific realist who believes everything in the cosmos follows the same set of "scientific principles" (even though they don't understand them fully themselves) as the "Truth?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism
 

distortion69

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The only group i know that you can't mix are atheists. I have friends from different religions. Everyone tolerates each others positions and everything. Once you throw an atheist in the mix there's always going to be arguments at the end of the night. Every topic usually comes down to putting downs and personal attacks based on someones beliefs.[URL="http://www.christianpost.com/news/war-on-christmas-atheists-neutralizing-christianity-65259/"] From what I've seen atheists are more radical than Christians and other faiths. Atheists just can't tolerate people with opposing viewpoints. [/URL]Just like you saw on tv during Christmas they can't bare to see a nativity set. Its a phobia. Most hate god or have a grudge from something that happened in their lives.
You don't really see other religions picking off other religions rituals and traditions. Only the atheists bicker and moan. lol atheists usually bother Christians more than Muslims. Christians are more held back and reserved like the kid in the back of the bus that gets picked on. Atheists attack because most aren't willing to fight back. You never really see anyone picking on Muslims. People are afraid of what they can potentially do ;)

First, I have a problem with you claiming all Christian's are this and that. I know various very outgoing Christians. I have NEVER made a point (until recently) to mention my atheism on facebook, due to the area I live in. But I should mention that there were NUMEROUS posts daily about the how atheists believe nothing came from nothing, etc.

As an atheist, I have a problem with people making shit up and claiming it as true. It has nothing to do with religion or religious tradition. If you want to drink some water or wine w/ crackers or some shit, I could care less. If you want to worship a god, that's fine. However, if you just start making shit up and claiming that the shit that makes your cellphone work doesn't exist or can't be right, while you are posting from your cellphone.. that is another thing.

Most of the shit that the religious try to downplay are based on the FUNDAMENTALS of said science. For instance, they'll question aging methods because they don't like that they aren't in agreement with the young earth theory... However, these aging methods are at the very elementary level of our understanding of the atomic structure, and radioactivity. If what they were saying wasn't at least accurate to a high degree, power plants wouldn't work the same... modern battery technology would be different... the list goes on of things that require a basic understanding of the atomic structure of the universe.

I do not make a habit of even mentioning I'm atheist in public, I go about my own business.The fact of the matter is though, I can sympathize with those Atheists who when faced with pure stupidity try to fight it.
 

Magnus

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[RIP]Zeus;1038481311 said:
Emotions, creativity, evil/good can and are observed in the natural world we live in. We can observe emotions, http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/295.full
They are observing the effects of emotions and thoughts not, the feelings and ideas themselves.
Creativity is observed by anyone creating something, be it music, video, art, or anything that can be observed by the natural world.
And, each of us interprets them differently.
Evil/Good is easily observed but also can define by the culture you live in, IE. If you (lets says for shits and giggles) in eastern part of the world, where eating a cookie is “ok” then this is considered “good” to that culture. Were the western part says “eating a cookie” is bad, there for its evil if conducted.
So, evil/good is only subjective? If I get the Nobel prize committee to agree you're evil, can I kill you now?
How can I deny an impact if the impact has been observed, reported on, seen by many, and possibly been repeated (aka there is evidence to back it up).Doing so would make me willfully ignorant.

No, cause one is based on observation and the other is based on willful ignorance, also known as “faith”.

We've already agreed that what one person observes is different from what another observes. Most of the people I know who have faith admit they don't know all the answers or even all the questions. I define willful ignorance as someone who blindly accepts logical extrapolation from other scientific principles as the "Truth" without observing it themselves.
 

[RIP]Zeus

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We've already agreed that what one person observes is different from what another observes. Most of the people I know who have faith admit they don't know all the answers or even all the questions. I define willful ignorance as someone who blindly accepts logical extrapolation from other scientific principles as the "Truth" without observing it themselves.

I define willful ignorance as someone who blindly accepts logical extrapolation from other scientific principles as the "Truth" without observing it themselves.

This part here is flawed, as the tools to observe are available to the public. You can also go to college and get a further education to "test" and "observe" these "logical extrapolations".
Also these “logical extrapolations” have been scrutinized by scientific method, which is the largest form of humility know to our species if you don’t have your shit straight.
 

Magnus

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[RIP]Zeus;1038481366 said:
This part here is flawed, as the tools to observe are available to the public. You can also go to college and get a further education to "test" and "observe" these "logical extrapolations".
Also these “logical extrapolations” have been scrutinized by scientific method, which is the largest form of humility know to our species if you don’t have your shit straight.


I don't even... :D

The "tools" for observing faith are available to the public. You can also go to the seminary for further education to "test" and "observe" faith. My articles of belief have been scrutinized by those with faith.

I've never seen a scientific study on getting my shit straight.

P.S. I believe in science and I have faith that God will enlighten me to his plan for it.
 

blade52x

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This.

Honestly, reading BS like that should MAKE one go athiest. It's that fucking nonsensically retarded and contradicting. Trust me, IF or once you reach the age of reason (10-11 for me :D), it'll make you go "lolwut".

Atheists are pretty retarded too imo. Agnostics and even deists are the only ones who have got their heads on straight.

Agnostics realize that as of right now, we just don't know. Any deists are a step above agnostics in that, they believe something intelligent created the universe, but won't try to give that intelligence qualities of any sort, so in a way they also accept that they just don't know what exactly is going on... Atheists on the other hand are just are retarded as theists in that they believe they know...

So before calling yourself an atheist next time, be sure to check yourself on that one. ;)
 

ManofGod

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[RIP]Zeus;1038481325 said:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
―Richard Dawkins

Does Richard Dawkins need to say anything more? :D

Actually, yes, since Richard Dawkins and you clearly do NOT know the Bible or the God of the Bible. Please, if you are going to quote someone, at least quote someone who has a clue what they are talking about.

The God of the Bible is the same yesterday, today and forever. God's mercy and grace as well as His judgement and authority are clearly seen throughout creation as the Old and New Covenant Scriptures.
 

ManofGod

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Also, faith is not the absence of critical thinking, but the evidence of it.
 

Magnus

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ManofGod, you need to realize that faith is an individual choice. No one can use logic to remove your faith and you cannot force people to believe by shouting the proof is all here while waving the <insert Holy scripture>

Further, I don't believe science and having faith are mutually exclusive. I don't know God's plan. If you do, you are either deluded or a false prophet.
 

enieves137

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Hmmmm! Let see if human beings can rationalize and/or calmly talk about science and religion without getting so bent out of shape. If you can then that is a true measure of intelligence.

Like I tell my intellectual friends, nerds mostly. While we are in the same boat, we need try to find common ground. Scientists are always trying to figure out this existence and we faithful believers have a bigger picture, we know the creator. Neither science nor religion is there a clear cut answer. We believe in what we can't see and they believe in what they can see.

I love science constantly reading about it (name your subject) but I believe in God.

Dark matter we can't measure, first we need to figure out what it is so if there is a huge blob of it out there then it doesn't surprise me it clumps up. Basic fundamental particle is unknown. What makes dark matter a supernova? Maybe it was created at the moment of the big bang. Which I don't dispute there was a big bang.
 

ManofGod

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ManofGod, you need to realize that faith is an individual choice. No one can use logic to remove your faith and you cannot force people to believe by shouting the proof is all here while waving the <insert Holy scripture>

Further, I don't believe science and having faith are mutually exclusive. I don't know God's plan. If you do, you are either deluded or a false prophet.

And yet for someone to say, "The Bible says this or that" when it clearly does not is just plain aggravating.
 

nOrVow

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Atheists are pretty retarded too imo. Agnostics and even deists are the only ones who have got their heads on straight.

Agnostics realize that as of right now, we just don't know. Any deists are a step above agnostics in that, they believe something intelligent created the universe, but won't try to give that intelligence qualities of any sort, so in a way they also accept that they just don't know what exactly is going on... Atheists on the other hand are just are retarded as theists in that they believe they know...

So before calling yourself an atheist next time, be sure to check yourself on that one. ;)

that's a terrible generalization. Knowing what exactly?

Atheists do not claim to know everything, but rather have acquittance with factual information of the natural world that is known and understood TODAY based on hundreds of years of scientific observation and experiment.

Atheists do not claim to know the unknowable (another thing theists/deists do) nor prove an illegitimate claim that lacks substantial proof (another thing). The information we have can only be improved on - thus spawning further progression. If we don't something, then that's just it - we don't know. But we aren't the ones who fabricate fairytale BS out our asses to fill in the void of uncertainty - another thing deists/theists do. Atheists can live without knowing. That's the difference. The knowledge we have now strengthens our curiosity, and makes us realize how much we, in fact, do not know. We accept that.

Not believing in a deity/creator due to lack of demonstrable evidence is different from believing in a creator while not objecting to an organized belief system with basis on said deity. The declaration is still there (and a bit contradicting). Deists are just as deluded as theists so i don't why you would batch agnosticism and deism together. In fact, I believe a lot of agnostics are closet atheists. :) They're virtually identical.

You might want to check the distinction between "faith" and "reason" before delegating someones lack of belief. ;)

i have nothing to check. Believe what you wish
 

[RIP]Zeus

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Don't feel bad, they haven't taken the time to learn the science they quote either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_science

And yes I have, when I was in high school. Seems you fell asleep in that class.

Also here we go with the insults, it always ends up with insults from the religious "gotta have faith" nutjobs.

But it's ok.

You all have "yet" to show any empirical evidence of your so called "deity", the proof is on you folk who "know" and are "certain" this thing is real.

@enieves137
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0213_060213_dark_matter.html
http://astro.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/essay.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
You are SO DAMN WRONG, that dark matter can’t be messured.
 

Aluisious

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Dark matter is inferred. It is assumed to exist to explain the fact that galaxies move and bend light as if they were far more massive than their visible stars and other matter appear to be.

It's also possible that dark matter isn't any kind of stuff, but a hole in our understanding of forces and matter on cosmological scales.

The problem is it's hard to get the stuff on hand to examine it. We've got "regular" matter here to poke at. If dark matter is weakly interacting stuff you couldn't even put it in a jar to examine it, it would leak out of solid objects. And if it's piles and piles of dead stars etc, no one has explained exactly how it got to where it is in galactic halos.
 

Magnus

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[RIP]Zeus;1038482204 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_science

And yes I have, when I was in high school. Seems you fell asleep in that class.

Also here we go with the insults, it always ends up with insults from the religious "gotta have faith" nutjobs.

But it's ok.

You all have "yet" to show any empirical evidence of your so called "deity", the proof is on you folk who "know" and are "certain" this thing is real.

@enieves137
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0213_060213_dark_matter.html
http://astro.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/essay.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
You are SO DAMN WRONG, that dark matter can’t be messured.

Insults? let's see you referred to me as "willfully ignorant," not having "my shit straight" and, finally a "nutjob" but, in my reply to someone else you inferred I called you ???

I don't have to prove anything. The essence of faith is that there IS no empirical evidence of God. Yet you've already admitted that the effects of people's belief are readily apparent.

Your links seem to be referring to measurement of Dark matter using displacement rather than direct measurement. A brick of gold and a brick of cement may displace the same amount but, that tells you nothing about their make up.

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my previous question, if I convince the Nobel committee that you're evil, is it alright to kill you? :D
 

BGK

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If you look at the development of the human embryo, we look like a fish, tadpole, etc. until we end up where we are, so yes all life is related. You just have "faith" that evolutiuon is correct. Just to point out that there are different faiths that we as people believe in. A little tolerance of other faiths would be nice to see from some other people on this forum.

You don't need faith in the fossil record, you don't need faith in cladistics, you don't need faith in genetic sequences. These exist in the actual world for anyone to see and learn about and they unambiguously support common ancestry and evolution.
 

Spewn

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I don't have to prove anything. The essence of faith is that there IS no empirical evidence of God.

As long as you don't attempt to use your beliefs to contribute to something otherwise based on evidence and proof, then no, you don't have to prove anything. The only time anyone wants you to prove what you believe is when you try to use it as evidence, because while you don't have to prove what you believe in you do have to prove evidence is valid.
 

Magnus

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As long as you don't attempt to use your beliefs to contribute to something otherwise based on evidence and proof, then no, you don't have to prove anything. The only time anyone wants you to prove what you believe is when you try to use it as evidence, because while you don't have to prove what you believe in you do have to prove evidence is valid.

You seem to believe evidence has some relationship to "Truth." Personally, I don't believe in "Truth" unless told to me by God. And, although I speak to him every day, he's never mentioned anything about dark matter. :D

"Evidence" is used every bit as self serving as some religious folk use faith. As a believer in God, I have no problem saying I don't know. The vast majority of Empiricists, who don't know either, have no problem dismissing the theories and beliefs of others as religious mumbo jumbo with no basis in science. See the conflict?

The scientific method and study of logic are too limiting and circular in reasoning to explain everything. The standard response by the scientifically inclined is that nothing exists outside of entropy while those of us with greater awareness know that to be false. That awareness does not repudiate science or logic, it transcends it.
 

Spewn

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You seem to believe evidence has some relationship to "Truth." Personally, I don't believe in "Truth" unless told to me by God. And, although I speak to him every day, he's never mentioned anything about dark matter. :D

Don't misunderstand, my statement was not an invitation to debate. Your arguments will not be taken seriously in a scientific context if they consist primarily of beliefs. This is just the way it is, and you can either accept this or not, but it will have no bearing on any serious scientific discussion.
 

Magnus

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Don't misunderstand, my statement was not an invitation to debate. Your arguments will not be taken seriously in a scientific context if they consist primarily of beliefs. This is just the way it is, and you can either accept this or not, but it will have no bearing on any serious scientific discussion.

Ah, I see, you believe "serious scientific discussion" is only valid if it ignores anything not included in it's structure by definition? How enlightened. ;)
 

Spewn

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Ah, I see, you believe "serious scientific discussion" is only valid if it ignores anything not included in it's structure by definition? How enlightened. ;)

If it cannot be measured then scientific study can't say anything about it.
 
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